All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

I play a lot of dredge at my local store. If the game gets to a point where someone is casting DTT they might as well draw seven as most often they will find the hate they are looking for. This mind you is a corner case. It's extremely frusterating when this happens, more often than not if I don't have enough damage for the swing back I've lost the game. Seeing seven is completely out of control for the price of UU.

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If you are on dredge and you lose to a DTT there is something wrong.
DTT just can't be the reason you lose even a single game if you are on dredge.

Still is true that slower and more grindy combo have an hard time against dig unless they play it too, is not really about the card selection, the problem is that a post sb blue aggro-control/control is almost full of combo hate, so dig is 100% gonna get something cool, and it being an instant is too punishing for most combo in the mid/mid-late game.


I would love if MTG had a system like hearthstone for "banning" cards, they just hotfix the card (for example making the card more expensive or a bit less effective) if something is over the top, i would like to see a sorcery DTT (and i actually play a DTT deck, the nerf would hurt me) or a less broken miracle mechanic (at least make terminus WW instead of W, that card is a joke) and so on :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Reliably finding aside-board card =/= drawing seven. You are defending a statement different than the statement I was calling you out on.

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Perhaps drawing parallels with banned draw sevens weakens the argument, but I still think that the toxic part of a draw 7 is being able to see seven fresh cards. Chances are, when you cast you only need 2 of them to win anyway. Myriad examples exist for almost 20 years now, like Wheel into Yawgmoth's Will, or Tinker to complete Vaultkey. Playing a Wheel you could care less about the 2 or 3 lands you hit, you just want to draw into juice.

Dig Through Time may not draw an additional 5 cards, but it grabs the 2 best cards, ones you are probably actively looking for, from a fresh 7 off the top of your deck. Discount the 2/3 lands you hit that you probably wouldn't need anyway and DTT starts looking like a 2 mana draw 7 more and more.

I believe it needs to fall into the draw 7 category because it lets you see 7 off the top, it gives more than one card and only costs UU. Impulse costs 1U, digs 4 cards and draws only one and that card used to be played quite a bit back in the day.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Perhaps drawing parallels with banned draw sevens weakens the argument, but I still think that the toxic part of a draw 7 is being able to see seven fresh cards. Chances are, when you cast you only need 2 of them to win anyway. Myriad examples exist for almost 20 years now, like Wheel into Yawgmoth's Will, or Tinker to complete Vaultkey. Playing a Wheel you could care less about the 2 or 3 lands you hit, you just want to draw into juice.

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LOL! In Legacy you can't draw into Yawg's Will because that card doesn't exist in this format. Nor would this play be particularly good after delving away your graveyard. That's right, DTT has delve and costs :6::u::u: - not :u::u:! I think you might have forgotten this.

Wheel and Twister are not OP simply because they can help find one or two cards a player might need to close the game! They can also draw mana ramp and more card draw to make Storm and/or Solidarity the most powerful and consistent deck(s) in Legacy.

Drawing parallels with banned draw sevens doesn't weaken any other arguments - it just betrays your lacking comprehension of the game. But it might cause people to dismiss any other (anti DTT/cantrip) arguments before they even read them.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

If I ran the ban list I would simply ban every card played in the latest miracles list.

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Thank fuck you never will! Let's ban Force Of Will, Swords To Plowshares, Island, and Plains. :rolleyes:

Must be a banned announcement coming - the idiocy is on the rise.

You clearly don't have much experience with Vintage (or any other format where those cards are legal). Yes, obviously Dig through Time has a delve cost. It's not hard to delve away fetches, random Duresses and other crap and leave your business spells in your yard for you to reuse with a PiF or Yawg Will.

Secondly, Wheel and Twister have real costs attached to them where they draw your opponent into a fresh 7, meaning they draw into more permission for you to fight through (that permission that you just recently discarded away with your Duresses). Dig through Time has no such cost, you get 2 best cards out of your 7. More often than not, a draw7 only really results in ~2-3 relevant cards. If you have played with them at all, you'd know this. If you follow Vintage discussions at all, Dig through Time has very often been compared to the Draw7s and favorably so.

Below is a quote from Ari Lax in one of his articles where he discusses Dig Through Time back in November of 2014: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ough-Time.html

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As for the rest of the text on Dig Through Time?

Choose two of seven is the better part of a draw seven. Think about the average opener: two or three mana, two or three filler, and twoish gas. Pick the gas or mana as needed, pass on the rest.

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But go ahead, keep repeating tired cliches over and over.

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Originally Posted by Noctalor

If you are on dredge and you lose to a DTT there is something wrong.
DTT just can't be the reason you lose even a single game if you are on dredge.

Still is true that slower and more grindy combo have an hard time against dig unless they play it too, is not really about the card selection, the problem is that a post sb blue aggro-control/control is almost full of combo hate, so dig is 100% gonna get something cool, and it being an instant is too punishing for most combo in the mid/mid-late game.


I would love if MTG had a system like hearthstone for "banning" cards, they just hotfix the card (for example making the card more expensive or a bit less effective) if something is over the top, i would like to see a sorcery DTT (and i actually play a DTT deck, the nerf would hurt me) or a less broken miracle mechanic (at least make terminus WW instead of W, that card is a joke) and so on :rolleyes:

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Against a deck like miracles which runs swords and terminus the match can definetly become a bit grindy. DTT is an absolute nightmare after a terminus.

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Originally Posted by HrishiQQ

You clearly...

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DTT also can be played EOT to maximize its usefulness. It's really hard to do that with say Wheel of Fortune or Memory Jar.
Otoh, Wheel has some really sick illustration.

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Originally Posted by HrishiQQ

You clearly don't have much experience with Vintage (or any other format where those cards are legal).

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Why are you talking about Vintage?

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Why are you talking about Vintage?

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Probably because you've been bullshitting about Vintage cards for the last page or so.

The miracle mechanic is busted because of the broken overpowered ubiquitous card Brainstorm. The end. You have to be a rhesus monkey to think adjusting the cost to WW is a real discussion or a solution.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

The miracle mechanic is busted because of the broken overpowered ubiquitous card Brainstorm. The end. You have to be a rhesus monkey to think adjusting the cost to WW is a real discussion or a solution.

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So in your opinion, if Brainstorm was actually banned, what would the resulting format look like?

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Originally Posted by MGB

So in your opinion, if Brainstorm was actually banned, what would the resulting format look like?

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I don't think anyone can conclusively say that. Will blue be weaker? Yeah, for sure. But who knows whether archetypes will die out or just adapt (or if something new will show up). I think the only way we could know besides it happening is to do some kind of large-scale experiment including tournaments where there is no Brainstorm in the format.

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Originally Posted by MGB

So in your opinion, if Brainstorm was actually banned, what would the resulting format look like?

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Less miracle. The rest stays the same. Perhaps a few more higher finishes for decks like jund, etc.

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Originally Posted by MGB

So in your opinion, if Brainstorm was actually banned, what would the resulting format look like?

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I almost feel like we need two different B/R speculation threads.

One for brainstorm and one where brainstorm isn't allowed to be mentioned.

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Originally Posted by MGB

So in your opinion, if Brainstorm was actually banned, what would the resulting format look like?

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I don't actually know what the format would "look like", that's tangential to the BNR list argument. I can say with a great deal of confidence that decks containing blue cards would remain the vast majority. No other spell has sat at 80% usage, 32/32'ed the formats premier events and survived a banning. It's absurd. If Legacy was a Pro Tour format it would have been long since banned, we'd have moved on, and people wouldn't have Brainstorm as a deck building crutch.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Less miracle. The rest stays the same. Perhaps a few more higher finishes for decks like jund, etc.

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Except discard becomes exponentially stronger, FoW gets weaker, glass cannon combo gets stronger, and Punishing/Grove does as well, delve and token strategies tank and tarmogoyf goes up in price again. Lame.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

"But then there would be too many glass cannon decks" is a bad argument because most of those decks can (and should, in my opinion) be also banned anyway. Belcher-style combo decks don't bring anything positive to the format. Magic doesn't need people showing up to a tournament w/ no purpose beyond adding variance to the results.

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Originally Posted by iatee

"But then there would be too many glass cannon decks" is a bad argument because most of those decks can (and should, in my opinion) be also banned anyway. Belcher-style combo decks don't bring anything positive to the format. Magic doesn't need people showing up to a tournament w/ no purpose beyond adding variance to the results.

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So now we ban decks because people refuse to prepare for the metashift? If people run slow decks with little interaction, why not run a T1 deck and win the tournament.

T1 decks are high variance enough that they are unfavored in long tournaments regardless. They're never going to be a good choice for good players because you completely give up the ability to outplay your opponent and put your fate in god's hands.

Also your predicted metashift w/ more discard makes up a little for the fewer FoWs.

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Originally Posted by iatee

"But then there would be too many glass cannon decks" is a bad argument because most of those decks can (and should, in my opinion) be also banned anyway. Belcher-style combo decks don't bring anything positive to the format. Magic doesn't need people showing up to a tournament w/ no purpose beyond adding variance to the results.

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More bullshit. Brainstorm vs. belcher only has text on the play. If there's an overwhelming amount of turn zero combo then people will have to (GASP!) adapt and play different solutions. If Goblin Charbelcher is in 80% of all decks and 32/32s a Grand Prix it will be banned as well. The belcher deck as currently constituted has internal inconsistency, can lose to just Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Snare, Thoughtseize, Duress, etc. on the draw. Regardless highlighting some other random deck that may or may not see a rise in usage isn't material to a BNR discussion, which is about cards not decks.

Instead of banning brainstorm they should just unban more broken stuff. I would like to see them unban earthcraft, goblin recruiter, memory jar, survival and yolo unban balance because that card gets no love.