Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
If we go by
this, Preordain is at ~13%. Hardly relevant. Gitaxian Probe in the wake of the Delve spells would be more interesting, but I guess that's another case of making a good card popular. Free information is quite powerful.
Indeed Preordain isn't even in my data because it never broke into the top20 cards of TCDecks. Probe on the other hand: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7d...ew?usp=sharing
BTW, DTT has passed TC's peak usage
Edit:
cards that got into the top20 since TCDecks data start (jan 2013):
Brainstorm
Force of Will
Wasteland
Ponder
Tarmogoyf
Polluted Delta
Abrupt Decay
Deathrite Shaman
Thoughtseize
Misty Rainforest
Verdant Catacombs
Lightning Bolt
Daze
Underground Sea
Spell Pierce
Swords to Plowshares
Flooded Strand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Hymn to Tourach
Tropical Island
Scalding Tarn
Volcanic Island
Surgical Extraction
Lotus Petal
Delver of Secrets
Stoneforge Mystic
True-Name Nemesis
Tundra
Liliana of the Veil
Gitaxian Probe
Treasure Cruise
Pyroblast
Dig Through Time
Flusterstorm
Cabal Therapy
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DarthVicious
Disclaimer: I vote neither for nor against a brainstorm ban. I'd miss it, but I wouldn't even remotely consider selling out of Magic if it were. DTT is another animal entirely. Compare
Dig Through Time to this:
Ancestral Memories.
Ancestral Memories is unplayable junk, though. It's like comparing Tarmogoyf to Grizzly Bears. Being better, even a lot better, than a profoundly mediocre card doesn't say anything at all about whether you're broken or not.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Ancestral Memories is unplayable junk, though. It's like comparing Tarmogoyf to Grizzly Bears. Being better, even a lot better, than a profoundly mediocre card doesn't say anything at all about whether you're broken or not.
Reducing the cost of something by :3: and spontaneously making it an instant is a pretty huge jump. In current Legacy, Wrath of God is unplayable junk. WOTC (in their infinite wisdom) reduced its cost by :2::w: and made it castable during your opponent's turn. The card went from unplayable junk to format-oppressing absurdity.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
Reducing the cost of something by :3: and spontaneously making it an instant is a pretty huge jump. In current Legacy,
Wrath of God is unplayable junk. WOTC (in their infinite wisdom) reduced its cost by :2::w: and made it castable during your opponent's turn. The card went from unplayable junk to format-oppressing absurdity.
Hallowed Burial, not Wrath.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
In current Legacy,
Hallowed Burial is unplayable junk. WOTC (in their infinite wisdom) reduced its cost by :3::w: and made it castable during your opponent's turn. The card went from unplayable junk to format-oppressing absurdity.
Fixed. :smile:
Your point remains just as valid.
Edit: Nath'd :rolleyes:
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
Hallowed Burial, not Wrath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ace/Homebrew
Fixed. :smile:
Your point remains just as valid.
Edit: Nath'd :rolleyes:
Yeah I know. I used WOG as an example because we all know Burial has never seen Legacy play (WOG has) and because the mana gap wouldn't have been the right number :tongue:.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
Reducing the cost of something by :3: and spontaneously making it an instant is a pretty huge jump. In current Legacy,
Wrath of God is unplayable junk. WOTC (in their infinite wisdom) reduced its cost by :2::w: and made it castable during your opponent's turn. The card went from unplayable junk to format-oppressing absurdity.
Wrong. Wrath of God was not unplayable junk before Terminus, and in fact saw a reasonable amount of play in Legacy. And it still sees some play in Modern and would see a fair amount of Standard play if it were reprinted. Ancestral Memories was terrible in Legacy back then, and would see little (probably zero) play in Modern and Standard if legal.
Also, the applicable card here is Hallowed Burial, not Wrath of God, and there's a bigger mana gap between Hallowed Burial and Terminus than there is between Ancestral Memories and Dig Through Time. So this analogy of yours doesn't really work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
Yeah I know. I used WOG as an example because we all know Burial has never seen Legacy play (WOG has) and because the mana gap wouldn't have been the right number :tongue:.
So, by your own admission, your comparison was faulty. Heck, you even admit right here that Wrath of God was not, as you just previously claimed, unplayable junk in Legacy!
Even if someone wants to claim that the difference between Wrath of God and Hallowed Burial's function is small enough that we should count Wrath of God as the point of comparison, it's still a small upgrade to Terminus, whereas Dig Through Time is a small downgrade from Ancestral Memories (cards go to the bottom of the library rather than graveyard). But again, even if you disregard all that, you're comparing a card that was decent in Legacy (Wrath of God) to a card that was awful in Legacy (Ancestral Memories).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
A history lesson in absurdity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nedleeds
Let's look at the inception of split legacy, by Brainstorm deck I actually mean a deck with 4 Brainstorms here.
GP Philly 2005 (38%)
3 Brainstorm decks, Brainstorm makes a 12 card appearance.
GP Lille 2006 (50%)
4 Brainstorm decks, 16 card appearance.
GP Columbus 2007 (63%)
5 Brainstorm fueled decks (including 3 flash combo decks, 3 was enough to get Flash banned) 20 appearances.
GP Chicago 2009 (50%)
4 Brainstorm decks, 16 out of 32.
GP Madrid 2010 (63%)
5 Brainstorm decks, Entomb is legal as well, 20 appearances.
GP Columbus 2010 (63%)
5 Brainstorm decks, now we're getting warm.
GP Providence 2011 (75%) heating up!
6 Brainstorm decks at GP Mental Misstep
follow this trend and it's 28/32 at Paris, 32/32 Kyoto and so on.
... also of note 7 of 8 on Mental Misstep was sufficient to get that POS banned ... and then it's all downhill, there's a double DNT / Merfolk top 8 but it's pretty much been a Brainstorm orgy since.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Also, the applicable card here is Hallowed Burial, not Wrath of God, and there's a bigger mana gap between Hallowed Burial and Terminus than there is between Ancestral Memories and Dig Through Time. So this analogy of yours doesn't really work.
Even if someone wants to claim that the difference between Wrath of God and Hallowed Burial's function is small enough that we should count Wrath of God as the point of comparison, it's still a small upgrade to Terminus, whereas Dig Through Time is a small downgrade from Ancestral Memories (cards go to the bottom of the library rather than graveyard). But again, even if you disregard all that, you're comparing a card that was decent in Legacy (Wrath of God) to a card that was awful in Legacy (Ancestral Memories).
Two people already pointed that out. My point was not to draw an analogy between the playability of Ancestral Memories and Wrath of God (if that wasn't obvious, apparently it wasn't) but to provide a real-world example of the difference removing 3 (or 4, if using Burial) mana from the cost of something makes. Also, claiming WOG has a better effect than Burial is dubious in a format with Delve, Deathrite Shaman, and all kinds of other graveyard shenanigans.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
Wrath of God is unplayable junk. WOTC (in their infinite wisdom) reduced its cost by :2::w: and made it castable during your opponent's turn. The card went from unplayable junk to format-oppressing absurdity.
Terminus sees pay in just one Legacy deck which sits at about 11.5% of the meta. How is that Format-oppressing?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Terminus sees pay in just one Legacy deck which sits at about 11.5% of the meta. How is that Format-oppressing?
The question on Terminus is not so much how much play it sees, but what is not able to be played because of it. I do feel 1 mana for a wrath effect at instant speed is not something that should be welcome in the format, but then again, that my view. This topic I feel is kind for secondary to others in Legacy.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
The question on Terminus is not so much how much play it sees...
...I do feel 1 mana for a wrath effect at instant speed is not something that should be welcome in the format
How much play it sees is determined by the fact that one must jump through hoops to cast it for 1cc. That's why it only sees play in one deck! A card:
Shallow Burial :w:
Instant
Put all creatures on the bottom of their owners' libraries
probably would be format oppressive, and would be run in all kinds of decks which don't have room for SDT.
It seems like this cards being judged by it's theoretical power (a theory which ignores the limitations of the card) despite the fact that these limitations are in practice what keeps the card in check. Not a very reasonable stance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
The question on Terminus is...
...what is not able to be played because of it.
You can't blame a decks failure on s a single card - not if that card is only run a single deck with a solid but reason performance. Maybe Miracles was the last straw for most aggro decks, but let's not blame the nail and ignore the coffin!
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
Terminus sees pay in just one Legacy deck which sits at about 11.5% of the meta. How is that Format-oppressing?
If the effect of one-mana instant speed Wraths that are played in the best deck in the format isn't already obvious to you, you're beyond help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
The question on Terminus is not so much how much play it sees, but what is not able to be played because of it. I do feel 1 mana for a wrath effect at instant speed is not something that should be welcome in the format, but then again, that my view. This topic I feel is kind for secondary to others in Legacy.
Yup.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
You can't blame a decks failure on s a single card - not if that card is only run a single deck with a solid but reason performance. Maybe Miracles was the last straw for most aggro decks, but let's not blame the nail and ignore the coffin!
I am not about to, I understand the overall issues for decks like Golbins, I played it for years. That said, we are talking single card might see play in one deck, but that one deck has been top dog for years. Having to face it twice in a GP with anything that folds to instant speed wrath more or less knocks that deck out of the format. The exception being only to my knowledge Elves, that could win only be sometimes being faster.
Also, its not like you have to jump though that many hoops to run it, I mean its not like SDT is not a card that does anything useful like let you get massive virtual card advantage. I mean, when was the last time you Thoughsiezed a deck with a top on the table and felt like you had really achieved something?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Also, its not like you have to jump though that many hoops to run it, I mean its not like SDT is not a card that does anything useful like let you get massive virtual card advantage.
Enough hoops that most decks can't run it. Stoneblade would probably like a 1cc Hallowed Burial - at least in the board. Ditto for D&T. Control Lands (with a white splash) might get a boost. None of these decks can run Terminus because the "hoops" needed to give it consistency are not in their game plan. SDT is good, but it's not viable for every control deck.
Merfolk seems to be making a comeback - if this continues we won't really have the argument that Aggro is non-existent. Personally I'm very happy to see it back.
I get that people miss Goblins and Zoo - I'd like to see them back. But not at the cost of banning out the only stack-based control deck in the format (which is nowhere near the ~20% of the meta like it had been for a while).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
The question on Terminus is not so much how much play it sees, but what is not able to be played because of it.
What decks does Terminus keep out of the format that couldn't also be explained by other factors as well, Zoo saw a decline in play with the printing of Stoneforge Mystic, and by the time Terminus was printed, was hardly a deck, Maverick was simply outdated by Jund and Shardless BUG, and Elves continued to see play up until recent months, in fact the deck as we know it debuted several months after terminus was printed.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
Two people already pointed that out. My point was not to draw an analogy between the playability of Ancestral Memories and Wrath of God (if that wasn't obvious, apparently it wasn't) but to provide a real-world example of the difference removing 3 (or 4, if using Burial) mana from the cost of something makes.
But again, you're referring to a card that was very Legacy playable getting reduced by 3 (or 4) versus a card that wasn't playable anywhere getting its cost reduced by 3.
I actually do favor a Dig Through Time ban, but trying to demonstrate its power by comparing it to Ancestral Memories is pretty silly.
Quote:
Also, claiming WOG has a better effect than Burial is dubious in a format with Delve, Deathrite Shaman, and all kinds of other graveyard shenanigans.
Actually, I was claiming the exact opposite, that Hallowed Burial was a little better. That said, my phrasing was confusing, so I can understand misunderstanding me.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord_Mcdonalds
What decks does Terminus keep out of the format that couldn't also be explained by other factors as well, Zoo saw a decline in play with the printing of Stoneforge Mystic, and by the time Terminus was printed, was hardly a deck, Maverick was simply outdated by Jund and Shardless BUG, and Elves continued to see play up until recent months, in fact the deck as we know it debuted several months after terminus was printed.
Mostly Goblins, I think. That deck was on the decline too I think, but was still a solid tier 2 deck or better before AVR. Maybe Affinity? That deck was never quite tier one either. Burn sucks against Miracles, but that's more about the Counter-Top than the Terminus.
I cant remember the exact chronology of Merfolk's decline - but I these days with 4x Chalice main, Forces, Vial, and a very fast clock, I can only imagine a solid MU vs Miracles.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Funny thingis that considering the raw pwoer of DTT and the amount of time that it spent in format, you may easily extrapoleteit to 95% satration if only you'll give it enought time and learn the players to use it. That's quite the contryry to BS that needed 18 years to make an impact and that's nowehere near to be the most hated card ever.
At least BS alows lots of different decks (from Storm through elver.de or w/e), shame's that it chokeholds the control department, as there's nothin better than Miracles in control bracket and you'd need to be idiot to play any other confrol thne Miracles.
Maybe soameday there's something new...
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
Funny thingis that considering the raw pwoer of DTT and the amount of time that it spent in format, you may easily extrapoleteit to 95% satration if only you'll give it enought time and learn the players to use it.
You might have made similar extrapolation when DRS was this old in the format. But it would have been a very silly and highly illogical!
