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Seconded. This looks strange when you play a list without DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by CUB3X
ANT should be the last deck that has to worry about sideboard slots, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by CUB3X
The sideboard is at least for my part never something I have to worry about.
That's certainly no argument.
I have no problem running 2 Chrome Moxes instead of 3, but I probably wouldn't have a problem running 3 either. I actually don't like seeing Chrome Mox in my opening hand very much. I'd rather have a land. The only time Chrome Mox is strictly better is during an Ad Nauseam. If this deck was more aggressive and tried to win on turn 1-2 every game, then the Chrome Mox count would probably go up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CUB3X
In my opinion, Krosan Grip is the only required card for an ANT sideboard. I've tried playing the deck without it, and it straight up sucks. Krosan Grip is superior to Wipe Away because a lot of times you want to kill their Counterbalance NOT on the turn before you go off. If your hand isn't quite ready yet, you will still want to be able to resolve Brainstorm and Ponder, and having a CB sitting on the board is not an option.
I'm taking this list to my local legacy tournament on Sunday, I haven't set up a sideboard yet. My meta is a Survival Deck, Boros Wins w/ Iso Chant, Progenitus Threshold w/ Countertop, BW Poxless Box, Landstill, and some other jank decks. What would you guys recommend for sb.
Main Deck
Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Silence
1 Wipe Away
1 Ad Nauseam
Sorcery
3 Ponder
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Island
Probably some grips and bounce. Maybe an extra Ad Nauseum against black decks (it's instant, by the way). Perhaps Dark Confidant.
A secondary win condition might not be a horrible idea, or another tendrils.
Against which decks do you side in Doomsday with the pulpfiction-hybrid and what´s going out? I usually take the AN Package(1 AN, 2 Mox, 1 Ponder) out, but what´s next to go out if you want to keep the Chants? Need Answer till tonight ;)
As far as another win condition, what would it come in against, black discard? And I'm assuming the Confidants come in against that too?Quote:
Originally Posted by GUnit
I also wanted to hear people's opinions on SDT. I haven't tested it but I would like to hear opinions. If I ran it, it would replace Ponder. Is it worth it or is Ponder better?
SDT is required if you're running Doomsday as well. If you're going straight up Ad Nauseam, you should max out Brainstorm and Ponder first before fitting in SDT's.
I don't see the benefit of taking anything out for SDTs besides Ponders. Everything else seems essential. Also curious to sideboard strategies for the top decks.
Why are people playing Doomsday?
The deck already has enough ways to generate lethal storm. Another way is simply not necessary, and lists with Doomsday just scream "beware the danger of cool things."
In practice, adding Doomsday creates more problems than it solves. It dilutes the focus of the deck, it forces the use of sub-optimal cards, and it adds more instability to the deck.
Kim Kluck's list is fantastic. Not only does it have a good deal of speed, but it is also resilient, flexible, and consistent. Any problem that Doomsday "solves" can be made up for with other options.
I play Kim's list however, I play 4 Cabal Rituals and 3 Infernals over her 3 Cabals and 4 Infernals. I also maindeck a Wipe Away over a Ponder just to have an outs game 1 in case something comes down. I like the list a lot. It works really well for me. I need the wipe away main deck because I have a counter top deck in my local meta.
Kim is a guy ;) How´s the Tempo MU with his list?
i would like to know how you side kim's list
And you know this from testing? Let me help you out with the answer: no, you don't. Do you even understand the Doomsday piles and where to apply them?Quote:
The deck already has enough ways to generate lethal storm. Another way is simply not necessary, and lists with Doomsday just scream "beware the danger of cool things."
In practice, adding Doomsday creates more problems than it solves. It dilutes the focus of the deck, it forces the use of sub-optimal cards, and it adds more instability to the deck.
We play Doomsday because it solves things that Infernal Tutor->IGG and Ad Nauseam don't already solve.
Issues with tempo decks like Merfolk where, due to their lack of sideboard hate against you, you often face down permission, a quick clock, and graveyard hate. Issues against
Counterbalance decks where anytime a Counterbalance lands, enough time is spent finding a solution to it that Ad Nauseam is worthless and Infernal Tutor->IGG requires one more protection and more mana than either Ad Nauseam or Doomsday.
Situations where we only have one actual Ritual effect complemented by Lion's Eye Diamond. These happen...a lot and really suck if you're playing a list without SDT or without Doomsday because you're left wishing the M10 rules didn't neuter Mystical/LED for you.
Doomsday makes the deck far less one dimensional for 2 slots, both of which are amazing against your worst matchups. It lets the deck ahead as ANT or carefully sculpt a winning without reliance on its life total or the graveyard, unaffected by most hate bears as well.
Mind sharing how you solved the Counterbalance problem without Doomsday? How about Merfolk? Tempo Thresh? How about when fast aggro boards in TCrypts or Relics because they have nothing else? They can put you on a decent clock (by turn 3 Ad Nauseam is worse than useless) and because they have no real combo hate, they take out your backup option. This happens a ton in tournament play because Storm doesn't have a high enough metagame share to make it worthwhile for most players who are already doing 40-60 or worse.Quote:
Kim Kluck's list is fantastic. Not only does it have a good deal of speed, but it is also resilient, flexible, and consistent. Any problem that Doomsday "solves" can be made up for with other options.
I can't speak to what is "better", and neither can anybody else unless they actually have empirical data to show. I can say that I personally prefer a build without Doomsday. I've tested it, and I just prefer to go without it. It's not an easier or harder way to win, it's just different. As emidln correctly points out, it gets around some of the potential pitfalls of IGG or AdN. But as Rico Suave points out (in ironically non-smooth fashion) it makes the deck slightly less predictable. Back when Spanish Inquisition was a viable deck, we had a similar argument about including Belcher. It's pretty much the same debate.
Your bias towards Doomsday has led you to false conclusions. You say Doomsday takes up 2 slots, but this is wrong. SDT is a great card but it is not worth maindecking without Doomsday. As such Doomsday leads you to at least 6 maindeck cards that are sub-optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
SDT slows you down, and then you go on to complain that you have trouble with creatures. You run less disruption slots than Kim Kluck's list, then you go on to complain you have trouble with light permission. Why am I not surprised?
If you want a tool against Counterbalance, look at Kim Kluck's SB. Dark Confidant is a beating in that match. Dark Confidant is a great 1st or 2nd turn play that will lead you to victory. The cool part is that not only does it dig for answers to CB, and not only does it load your hand with business and disruption to overwhelm counters, but it makes another option viable - the ability to swing and slow roll your opponent so that you can simply cast a 5-7 storm Tendrils the old fashioned way.
It seems that a lot of lists on deckcheck.net disagree that SDT isn't worth maindecking without Doomsday. In fact, it appears to be a very common 2-3of in lists found on the first page of the ANT category on deckcheck.net. In the first 30 lists as of today, 12/11/2009, a full 20 of them play 1 or more SDT in the maindeck with 19 playing 2 or more. Strangely, only 7 of the first 30 lists played any number of Doomsday in the main of sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Doomsday lists actually have no issue with a fast clock, light permission, and graveyard hate. It would be the standard ANT lists that have these issues. Doomsday fixes these problems and provides a very positive Merfolk matchup.Quote:
SDT slows you down, and then you go on to complain that you have trouble with creatures. You run less disruption slots than Kim Kluck's list, then you go on to complain you have trouble with light permission. Why am I not surprised?
Further, extra disruption doesn't actually solve the issues that tempo thresh presents. This is why we cut some disruption for more mana and to support an alternate storm engine that would allow us to better develop our manabase vs tempo decks. Extra Duresses and Chants won't help when your manabase is constricted by stifle/waste/cursecatcher/daze. Extra lands and the ability to win when the game is extended is what wins the Doomsday lists this matchup.
Because attacking into Tarmogoyf and praying your opponent sided out all removal/sower of temptations is a viable plan for a combo deck. (Hint: they don't side the stuff out because most opponents don't have enough cards to side in against storm. Sowers tend to stay in because it will pitch to Force of Will, steal stray Xantid Swarms/Confidants if the game goes longer, and might even attack for 2. Similarly, Swords often stays in because there is nothing better to bring in for it.)Quote:
If you want a tool against Counterbalance, look at Kim Kluck's SB. Dark Confidant is a beating in that match. Dark Confidant is a great 1st or 2nd turn play that will lead you to victory. The cool part is that not only does it dig for answers to CB, and not only does it load your hand with business and disruption to overwhelm counters, but it makes another option viable - the ability to swing and slow roll your opponent so that you can simply cast a 5-7 storm Tendrils the old fashioned way.
The problem with Confidant against control is that we have no true control decks with Counterbalance in them. Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant. Worse, the Confidant doesn't actually do anything a few turns later as the opponent still plays creatures. Now you can't attack anymore (probably only dealing 2-6 damage anyway), still have to remove Counterbalance to win, and are giving the opponent more time to find extra Counterbalances or attack you for more further removing the effectiveness of Ad Nauseam.
The lack of Doomsday is not strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Like I said, SDT is certainly a great card. It's not a surprise that people run it. However it is worse than Brainstorm and Ponder in a Tendrils deck. As such, some people may find room for 2 or so which is understandable but 4 is way too much search that the deck simply does not need. You end up searching for search, which is pointless.
No, you confuse the use of extra mana with the use of Doomsday. These are not somehow interrelated, they are exclusive.Quote:
Doomsday lists actually have no issue with a fast clock, light permission, and graveyard hate. It would be the standard ANT lists that have these issues. Doomsday fixes these problems and provides a very positive Merfolk matchup.
Further, extra disruption doesn't actually solve the issues that tempo thresh presents. This is why we cut some disruption for more mana and to support an alternate storm engine that would allow us to better develop our manabase vs tempo decks. Extra Duresses and Chants won't help when your manabase is constricted by stifle/waste/cursecatcher/daze. Extra lands and the ability to win when the game is extended is what wins the Doomsday lists this matchup.
Further, how does Duress NOT help against Daze?
Sower is not an answer to a turn 1 or 2 Confidant.Quote:
Because attacking into Tarmogoyf and praying your opponent sided out all removal/sower of temptations is a viable plan for a combo deck. (Hint: they don't side the stuff out because most opponents don't have enough cards to side in against storm. Sowers tend to stay in because it will pitch to Force of Will, steal stray Xantid Swarms/Confidants if the game goes longer, and might even attack for 2. Similarly, Swords often stays in because there is nothing better to bring in for it.)
The problem with Confidant against control is that we have no true control decks with Counterbalance in them. Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant. Worse, the Confidant doesn't actually do anything a few turns later as the opponent still plays creatures. Now you can't attack anymore (probably only dealing 2-6 damage anyway), still have to remove Counterbalance to win, and are giving the opponent more time to find extra Counterbalances or attack you for more further removing the effectiveness of Ad Nauseam.
StP is an answer, but:
1) They will draw StP when you don't have Confidant
2) They will not draw it when you do have Confidant
3) You will oftentimes Duress the StP and then play Confidant
4) You will have 2 Confidant where they have only 1 StP
5) They will draw StP a few turns late, at which point the Confidant has already done its job.
It is a classic example of how a threat is simply better than the answers to it.
Lastly, this statement is just false: "Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant."
Even without drawing into a Krosan Grip with Confidant, you can simply draw a number of spells, cast them into CB anyway, and then Tendrils for the win.
Dark Confidant means you do not need Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Doomsday in order to set up lethal storm. It has been such a strong factor in testing vs. CB that it has been unreal.
agree to disagree shall we ?
Wow, AdN has certainly sent combo in the wrong direction. You get all these people who think combo is nothing more than: ritual, ritual AdN ... win. Very sad actually, then all the people who act like they know how to play combo.
You know what, ur right. Sensei's Divining Top has no place in combo. It contributes nothing to consistency and slows the deck down. Oh wait ..... we aren't playing Belcher and its not about speed. Please gain experience with the deck before mindlessly posting in these threads. People like: emidln, B.C., Bahamuth, kicks 422, Bryant Cook, and myself have been posting on these boards a long time and play combo regularly. We know what makes a combo deck work.
Now, Doomsday is not for everyone, I understand this. Doomsday is easily the most skill testing card in legacy. There is almost always a stack that gets you out of a situation, you just have to see it. And anyone who thinks relying on speed to win matchups should just be ignored because that is ignorant. Combo, regardless of the build, IS NOT GOING TO WIN ON TURNS 1-3 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS. You will have to mulligan and play against your opponent. There are 2 kinds of combo players, competent pilots and idiots who bitch about the deck not working right. OK, I get it, gain experience with the deck. It is not about speed, you want a fast combo deck, play Belcher, it requires a lot less thinking and is a lot less consistent.
Also, its very sad that people still play Dark Confidant. THE CARD IS AWFUL. You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it. This card was run in like ... older TES builds when they needed card advantage. There is a reason people like Bryant Cook, emidln, and myself don't play this card in combo SB, we tested it and its terrible. Xantid Swarm is different, it is not necessary but its really good. If it resolves it makes the mirror just sick and makes Merfolk almost a bye. In the Thresh matchup you don't even have to board them in, just the threat of playing it can mean something.
Honestly, when all the new combo players complain "I can't beat CB" its because they have no idea how to play against it. You want to run Angel's Grace and then side in 3-4 Grip or Wipe Away ... have fun and I wish you luck. Its not about luck or getting good draws, those of us who play combo know AdN is worthless after turn 4 most of the time and Doomsday only requires 2 life to win. Combo is all about having the right build of your deck to win any given matchup at any given time. It has nothing to do with speed, ANT is fast, sure, but consistency is infinitely more important. Those of us who used to play SI, Belcher, and FT can attest to that. Please gain experience with the deck, take it to more than one tournament, then post about your experiences and ask what you could have done to win, chances are excellent that you were in a position to win but just didn't see it.
After saying this about three times now, you haven't given us any reason at all to belive you. Top is not worse than Ponder. Top is not a suboptimal choice. In fact, from a blue players perspective, Top is one of the most dangerous cards in our deck. It is very often the right play to use a FoW on Top. The chances of winning with the Doomsday Hybrid increase enormously if you manage to resolve a first turn Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Now, you know that list you're all loving and praising? My team has been running that EXACT mainboad for more than a year now. We know how this deck works. We have tested Confidant, and we know it doesn't work and that it doesn't beat Counterbalance. Although there are definitely some situations where a Confidant will give you an advantage, it will hardly ever win you a game like Grip & Top will, and you have way better options to risk it just getting StP'd.