[Deck] Zoo

While stp vs pte was already thoughtfully discussed in this thread (and neither of the cards turned out to be strictly better than the other) I wonder about your thoughts on one more issue, that hasn't been widely covered - targeting your own critters.

In a pitch you can use stp as a lifegain tool, while pte can be used as land tutor tool. In order to be efficient stp must be used on a big guy (which often will mean goyf only), while pte can work even on 1/1 kird ape. Both can be used in response to spot removal and when we are chump blocking (too bad damage no longer goes on stack). It also makes both cards not totally dead against creatureless decks.

Is any of those plays occasionally important or are those just tricks which will never turn the tide of battle for you?

I have a question for those of you who run sylvan Library. Are you guys using it like a pseudo top, or do you guys pay 4-8 life per draw step to get extra cards? Also does the Library favor a more burn heavy deck so that you can dump all of your extra cards at once ftw?

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

I have a question for those of you who run sylvan Library. Are you guys using it like a pseudo top, or do you guys pay 4-8 life per draw step to get extra cards? Also does the Library favor a more burn heavy deck so that you can dump all of your extra cards at once ftw?

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It really depends on the matchup. Obviously against most aggro it's just a Mirri's Guile, but against control it can turn into an Ancestral Recall.

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Originally Posted by umbowta

Is the Waste in play? I'd play the Taiga and force his/her decision. You can fetch up Plateau and smack for three if the Taiga gets wasted. Keep in mind that you're seeing 2 more cards before then anyway so you're probability of pulling another land is good.

Lead with the Taiga. Stifle gains them more tempo than Waste and they prolly opened with a Fetch or a blue source.
Did they miss their land drop or did you fail to figure it out? Either way I'd lead with Taiga.

Fetch out Savannah and drop the cat. You're broadcasting the fact that you have access to red but that's fine. You're on the play and in the drivers seat.

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Thanks for the information, I’ve found that fetching good land is one of the hardest decision for a zoo to take.
But if we’re on the play and we know that he plays Can ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. Would you still put Taiga first ? I mean, if you get stifle’d on the fetchland and wasteland your taiga, you’re almost sure to be dead. With all the cantrips that he has, it’s not THAT hard to have both.

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Edit: This is assuming it's your first turn.

On the draw:
vs wasteland in play: recklessly play taiga then nacatl. waste is some tempo loss and boots on the ground get to turn sideways.
vs wasteland in deck: taiga, play nacatl. If they drop a waste and pop it, I have a draw and a fetch to decide what to get.
vs canadian thresh w/ waste in play: fetch forest, play nacatl.
vs canadian thresh w/ dual in play: taiga, pass turn. Don't wanna walk into a daze, nor get a fetch stifled. Next turn it'll be stifled, though. And the Nacatl will get bolted. Regardless, the tempo thresh guy will draw everything he ever needs against you while wearing a shit-eating grin and mumbling about how luck he is after every draw step. He will see 3 goyfs per game and he will cast more bolts than you do, somehow. (I'm not bitter)
unknown deck: taiga, nacatl.

On the play:
I agree with Umbowta. Fetch savannah, play kitty.

Good question! got the 'old gears turnin'.

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Thanks for the answer too !
I think I would do the same decisions as you did except vs Can ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh with dual in play. I mean, I don’t think walking into a daze is really that important here, considering that they loose a good amount of tempo there with their island to their hand. I think that you are most likely going to have some mana problems in this match up, so he will probally be able to daze anything because we won’t have the time to play around it. So if they want to daze my nacatl, I think it would not be a great decision of them. I think the decision is freaking hard to do, I would probally taiga and play Nacatl, and fetch on the second turn, except if they are tap’d out.
With the same hand, vs Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and you are on the draw. If you do Taiga -> nacatl first turn and he misses his second land drop, and you don’t draw any other land. You drew like 2cc card, would you try to fetch right away or wait till he is tapped out to fetch ?
And another situation for you guys, vs and unknown deck where you don’t have 1cc creature in your hand (like Tarmogoyf, Quasali, Thoctar, Burns and Taiga, wooded foothills, on the play. Would you just fetch for a basic mountain or would you play taiga, so you’re most likely to put a Turn 2 goyf ?
By the way, I laughed at your comment about canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, which is kind of true ^^. The thing that is ironic is that I was debating weither to choose canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh or zoo for m y next tournament.

Sylvan library is sick,its really THAT good.
U should test it if u havent yet. Depending on the MU's,but against some decks like landsstill or just when u have enough life,taking 1-2 extra cards is so nice,regardless of the life which shouldnt matter. If you play helix(which I do) u can be a bit more agressive on the card drawing.
I run 4LB,3 CL,3L.Helix,2 fireblast as burn and it works out just fine for me.

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Originally Posted by Guitar

With the same hand, vs Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and you are on the draw. If you do Taiga -> nacatl first turn and he misses his second land drop, and you don’t draw any other land. You drew like 2cc card, would you try to fetch right away or wait till he is tapped out to fetch ?

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If his one land is a volcanic, swing for 2 and see if he bolts it. If he does, play and crack the fetch. If he doesn't, play fetch, don't break it. By not cracking it right away you force him to decide to
A: brainstorm at eot to find his second land and let me get a land off my fetch since he won't have mana for stifle.
B: not brainstorm to keep stifle mana open and risk being stuck at one land by topdecking rather than digging 3 deep.
Now he could not have stifle or brainstorm or whatever, but ya kinda have to play like they do.

If his one land is a tropical, I'll play a fetch, crack it for a plains, see if it gets stifled, swing for 3 (or 2 if stifle) and keep my mana open, just turning sideways for 3 till I draw a third land or he draws a second. Can thresh has a shitty lategame so if you can survive turns 1-4 with all 3 colors in tact (not easy to do), you've basically won as zoo.

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Originally Posted by Guitar

And another situation for you guys, vs and unknown deck where you don’t have 1cc creature in your hand (like Tarmogoyf, Quasali, Thoctar, Burns and Taiga, wooded foothills, on the play. Would you just fetch for a basic mountain or would you play taiga, so you’re most likely to put a Turn 2 goyf?

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On the play I'd fetch for a plateau, pass turn. My deck has more white than most zoo, though.

I've played against Canadian Thresh a lot, and I fully believe Zoo has the inevitability in this matchup. If they don't fuck up your mana development, you're going to win simply because you have enough removal to kill their goyfs and enough blockers to beat down their mongeese, and at that point you win. So if they tempo you out, they win, but otherwise, you have inevitability. Therefore, against tempo thresh, I like to play it as cautiously as possible. If they lead on a wasteland, I will often fetch a basic, since you know you'll have that basic for the rest of the game, even if it's not the optimal color. If they lead on a dual, if I have a dual or basic in hand I lead on that and run the 1 drop out there. If I only have a fetch, I just don't crack it. See if they brainstorm eot. After all, since we have inevitability, forcing them to waste their t1 mana is an acceptable play imo. If they do brainstorm, then you crack your fetch and possibly throw a bolt down if you want to. I often will to see if I can get a bad player to daze it. (you'd be surprised how often that happens...)

If they don't use that mana, you nod in silent victory as they've now wasted a turn of tempo. If they then play their turn 2 with mana open, you make your second land drop and play the nacatl. See if they cast something. If they still have U open at the end of your second turn, you again pass without having cracked the fetch. If they brainstorm now, which if they haven't yet they probably will, you crack the fetch. If not, you wait until the end of their third turn. If at the end of their third turn, they still have U up, you go ahead and crack the fetch, whether you've drawn a third land or not. If you're running a 21 land list like most of the people playing zoo have been lately, then you have a good chance of drawing a third land by your 4th draw.

I hope that all made sense.

Edit//Also, with library, I draw a LOT of cards off of library. Against control decks with no burn, I don't even blink an eye about drawing myself down to 4 life. Against aggro decks, I'll draw whenever my life is above 15ish if there's a card I need, and I will almost always, no matter what I'm playing against, pay the 4 life to draw a lightning helix.

Playing more and more really teaches you how to play best. People who think Zoo is just playing burn and turning creatures sideways have not truly figured out how the deck works.

I was revising my old RG Heezey Beatz, so I decided to throw in White. The deck's match ups are even better against decks like Merfolk, Goblins, CounterTop Thresh, Canadian Thresh, Landstill and such. Basically, I thrash every deck but the mirror and Combo. Against the mirror, it's only 50/50, still. Against combo... well, you're suppose to lose to combo, but moreso this build. Also, Counterbalance is still running around. It sucks when you're facing Counterbalance pre-board and all you have in your hand are 2c creatures and some burn. Maindeck Shushers in addition to Pridemages should definitely help prevent this problem. I'm running 6 right now so that I can combat Counterbalances, because decks like Landstill are running them at the moment too. The best way to beat decks with Counterbalance is to bypass it or prevent it, because either way, I'm forcing damage through.

Another reason why this build is sweet is because I can keep just about any hand, and I will have a solid opening hand, whereas with actual Zoo, you tend to mull hands consisting of burn, removal and lands. This deck is all lands and creatures... well, with the exception of 10 cards, really.

This deck plays a lot like Heezey Beatz in T2, obviously. You drop some amount of dudes, and you beat. I even splashed for white for Nacatl, Pridemage, and Soltari Priest. Evasion is huge in this deck, and Soltari Priest and River Boa have been doing their jobs very well. Also, decks will board Firesprouts against you, and Soltari Priests and River Boas survive Firesprout sweeps.


// Mana 22
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest


// Creatures 28
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 River Boa
3 Soltari Priest
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Woolly Thoctar


// Spells 10
4 Path to Exile
3 Price of Progress
3 Sylvan Library


// Sideboard 15
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Ajani Vengeant
3 Krosan Grip


Every card should be self-explanatory, except the Sideboard. Path to Exile is there to remove blockers, which easily fixed a problem from the previous RG build which had Franzied Goblin in the maindeck for this very reason. If I can remove a blocker that is slowing me down, I can push every ounce of damage I can force through. Sylvan Library is there so I can outdraw control and mobilize my board so I can win the combat race. PoP is in the maindeck because this deck is very aggressive. I usually push the most damage through, so I tend to use PoP for about 6-8 damage and just win.

The Sideboard is very interesting because my plan against those Counterbalance or Control decks is to board in all 8 copies of my REBs in an attempt to slow them down. Counter cantrips, Standstills, Cunning Wishes, Counterbalances... anything: just slow down them enough for a stupid Kird Ape and a River Boa squeeze in 20 damage. Also, REBs are insanity against Merfolk.

I don't run Grim Lavamancer because it's a bad blocker. River Boa is in this slot instead, because it's hypothetically unblockable and is a damn good blocker. Grim Lavamancer can remove creatures in play, but the only creatures it can remove are those in Merfolk. However, I'm still testing this build. I might bring Lavamancer back in because it burns opposing Lavamancers, Pridemages, and such.

I initially wanted 4 Jittes in the sideboard for the Zoo mirror, but they will not only bring their own Jittes in, but they will also have Pridemages and removal for your guys. Thankfully, you have cards like Priest and River Boa, but I feel as if that having your own Jitte for a turn or two isnt enough to swing the game around; I need an indirect way to combat Jitte and not lose my Jitte to opposing Jittes or Pridemages. Enter Ajani. Both Ajanis are really good for this deck. Ajani Goldmane is good because this deck always has a lot of creatures in play, and when I have a lot of creatures, I want them backed up. Also, Ajani nets me life so that I dont have to leave as many blockers back to defend myself. Ajani Vengeant is good because it taps a creature down (esp one I dont want blocking me and taking down one of my better creatures), and it Helixes as well. This is not only good for gaining life, but also racing and removing blockers.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

4 Soltari Priest

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Ouch, that really hurts the eye. 15 white sources and soltari priest don't mesh.

Also the curve seems really unpleasant.

12 1cc cards
25 2cc cards
3 3cc cards

Add to this the fact that River Boa needs regen mana, and that you're only running 20 land, it just seems like too top heavy of a curve, most lists run a closer split between 1 and 2 cc cards.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

Also the curve seems really unpleasant.

12 1cc cards
25 2cc cards
3 3cc cards

Add to this the fact that River Boa needs regen mana, and that you're only running 20 land, it just seems like too top heavy of a curve, most lists run a closer split between 1 and 2 cc cards.

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I don't think it's that much of a deal, especially when you land a Sylvan Library. If anything, I always get mana flooded. However, I should be cutting a card or two for more lands. Thinking of cutting a River Boa and a Soltari Priest for another Horizon Canopy and another fetchland.

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Originally Posted by mackaber

Ouch, that really hurts the eye. 15 white sources and soltari priest don't mesh.

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17 white sources.

9 Fetchlands
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains

Hello at all,

today Jens K. won the Legacy tournament in Hassloch with this Build XD

Creature:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Woolly Thoctar
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Progenitus

Instant:
4 Lightning Helix
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

Sorcery:
3 Natural Order

Planeswalker:
4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

Land:
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Treetop Village

I don't know the Board, i think tormod's crypt with another randooom cards :D
This build shows me that Legacy is random and nobody in Hasssloch can play his build xDD
Jens is a good player and know how to play magic. And Hassloch isn't a small tournament the second biggest tournament in Germany after Iserlohn.

greets

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Originally Posted by Bitchtoken

*List*

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Planeswalkers and Natural Order, wtf? ...Interesting list. Not so sure about Garruk and Ajani though...

You have with this build always the bigger threats like your oppenet. Ajani is a lightning helix with special combos, very funny. Garruk does 3/3 Beasts, thats solid.

Furthermore you sacrifice your bird or hierarch for progenitus and the game is over. The game against Countertop was very funny, too.
Jens: Ajani
Player 2: Player is looking in Top, ok reslovt.
Jens: Garruk
Player 2: Ok, player is looking in the top, resolvt XD

The only build to win this deck was Ichorid and Fastcombo. No chance with this cc4 build.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

17 white sources.

9 Fetchlands
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains

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Now were talking. Since your running 22 lands and not the listed 20 your list is actually 62 cards. You really want to make me suffer don't you?

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Originally Posted by mackaber

Now were talking. Since your running 22 lands and not the listed 20 your list is actually 62 cards. You really want to make me suffer don't you?

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My list is 60 cards, and I'm running 20 lands. I also said I might cut a Boa and a Priest for two more lands (which I probably will). So dont consider suicide. :)

Bitchtoken, that deck is not zoo. I'm not saying it's bad, but it is definitely not a zoo deck.

Citrus God, if you're going to play a deck entirely made of two drops and no burn, you'd be much better off just playing white weenie so that you have a waste-proof mana base. But once again, that list has hardly anything to do with zoo. Just playing tarmogoyfs and being RGW does not make something zoo, and does not making something appropriate for this thread.

I saw a card like this in mtgsalvation spoiler:

Summoning Trap 4gg

Instant - Trap
If a creature you cast this turn was put countered by a spell or ability an opponent controlled, you may pay 0 rather then pay Summoning Trap's casting cost.
Look at the top 7 cards of your library. You may put a creature card from among them onto the battlefield. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Don't know if its real but could this be a sb card for zoo? I know people keep countering our Tarmogoyfs and other creatures so maybe this has potential?

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

My list is 60 cards, and I'm running 20 lands. I also said I might cut a Boa and a Priest for two more lands (which I probably will). So dont consider suicide. :)

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I'm not quite that far yet. Luckily RL keeps me happy. You on the other hand should either edit your declist or check out Math101 they might have a few tricks up their sleeve for you like 22+30+10=62 ;).

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Originally Posted by yugular

I saw a card like this in mtgsalvation spoiler:

Summoning Trap 4gg

Instant - Trap
If a creature you cast this turn was put countered by a spell or ability an opponent controlled, you may pay 0 rather then pay Summoning Trap's casting cost.
Look at the top 7 cards of your library. You may put a creature card from among them onto the battlefield. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Don't know if its real but could this be a sb card for zoo? I know people keep countering our Tarmogoyfs and other creatures so maybe this has potential?

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I fear that card is a bit too situational for it's own good.
It sure is a nice trick, but wouldn't you rather have Vexing Shusher which is also a beater on it's own of just Red Elemental Blast which can also destroy annoying cards in play like Back to Basics and Propaganda.
Plus it's a horrible topdeck late game where Zoo really needs a threat in order to push the last points of damage through.