[Archetype] CounterTop

What is the general consent (if there is any) concerning Stoneforge Mystic featuring a Jitte and some other Piece of Equipment, probably SoFI or SoLS?
I could see it being strong vs a lot of decks (read: any non-combo decks), but it uses up a fair amount of slots and blue cards for FoW.



Also, as I lost a couple of games against a deck I sometimes hand out to people not owning a legacy deck, which contains a playset Mother of Runes:
I cannot think of many situations, where Hierarch is > Mother of Runes.
Mother virtually killls so many cards from the opponents deck, if left unanswered for a turn, it's not even funny, especially when you're confronted with her.

After losing only and almost singlehandedly to Mother of Runes, I am seriously considering adding her just to see if it works out.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Jace can bounce Iona naming white. This is often relevant.

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It can also give you wins vs. Lands.dec...

The Mother of Runes suggestion kind of makes me want to dance...

Seriously, you already use CB-Top to protect your threats and playing Mother seems like a good game plan for Death & Taxes, not CB-Top (IMO).

If you want to play equipments, I'd suggest looking up the Excalibur thread.

I played in an 8 man on saturday with 1 jace in the main. I only got it in one of the three rounds, and only 1 game, but it was awesome.
I was playing against new horizons and kept bouncing his terravore until I got a progenitus down.

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The Mother of Runes suggestion kind of makes me want to dance...

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Can't blame a man for the urge to dance ;)

I wouldn't compare Mother to CB/Top, they only share few funtionalities. Yes, both can protect a threat from removal. But that's about it.

Mother can block anything non-trampling all day long, can give protection if you're in a race and must bypass chumpblockers, comes down on turn one to protect (and to serve) on turn two or trade with a lackey, while CB does none of these things and comes down online on t3.

Also, Mother can buy the time to find and assemble CB/Top.


I'm not completely sold on this idea, just like to point out that CB does not make Mother irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by fallenphoenix

Can't blame a man for the urge to dance ;)

I wouldn't compare Mother to CB/Top, they only share few funtionalities. Yes, both can protect a threat from removal. But that's about it.

Mother can block anything non-trampling all day long, can give protection if you're in a race and must bypass chumpblockers, comes down on turn one to protect (and to serve) on turn two or trade with a lackey, while CB does none of these things and comes down online on t3.

Also, Mother can buy the time to find and assemble CB/Top.


I'm not completely sold on this idea, just like to point out that CB does not make Mother irrelevant.

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I agree with your argument.

The thing is, it doesn't "pitch" to N.O. and doesn't accelerate you into it either (and Exalted often breaks creature stalemates).

Okay, I did not think of NO-Prog, because I always have been playing without it.

With NO-Prog you actually have reasons to put as many green creatures as possible into your deck (+ acceleration makes more sense....), without it you can just play whatever the heck you like :)

I will be testing both Mother and Stoneforge tomorrow, perhaps just to find out that they don't make the cut.

I would not want to go in on an equipment plan for the same reason that I think Tarmogoyf might be the wrong direction. You can't count on blocking with your guys anymore, and paying 6 mana to get Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte seems really bad when every deck in the format has a way to invalidate that plan. I would much rather just cast a Knight of the Reliquary because it can protect itself.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I would not want to go in on an equipment plan for the same reason that I think Tarmogoyf might be the wrong direction. You can't count on blocking with your guys anymore, and paying 6 mana to get Stoneforge Mystic + Jitte seems really bad when every deck in the format has a way to invalidate that plan. I would much rather just cast a Knight of the Reliquary because it can protect itself.

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Has anyone tested Knight of the Reliquary over Rhox War Monk for a three drop? The knight can get much bigger and only requires 2 colors compared to Rhox, though he doesn't pitch to FoW and doesn't have lifelink. Is Rhox needed for Zoo matchups?

I have tried out Knight in the Rhox slot, and it was quite often a problem that he wasn't blue. Far more often than I did not have the color requirements for casting Rhox, I would end up holding a force without a blue card. Another problem I encountered was Knight was not always big enough to survive bolt when I needed to drop him. I could wait for a fetch... but then nactyle would bite away another 3 life and that burn that would kill knight would just kill me instead.

I haven't tried Knight out, but I can honestly say that I love the lifelink RWM provides. The life gain from a landed Rhox has pulled me out of so many jams and with it's big butt it has a hard time getting killed. Also, being able to pitch it to force is also really good in my eyes. Sure Knight can get bigger but I feel like it might take a lot longer than just landing a 3/4 lifelinker.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Has anyone tested Knight of the Reliquary over Rhox War Monk for a three drop? The knight can get much bigger and only requires 2 colors compared to Rhox, though he doesn't pitch to FoW and doesn't have lifelink. Is Rhox needed for Zoo matchups?

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I posted a list in another CB-Top thread with only 4 Goyf and 4 KOTR for a creature base (see post #11).

Source: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?17534-[Deck]-CounterTop-Control&p=455486&viewfull=1#post455486

So I tested Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic with a Jitte and a SoFI. I only made a few games vs. Zoo.

Turned out SFM was a little slow for my taste, though having a way to tutor for Jitte was nice. But with the abundancy of cheap spot removal and Quasali Pride Mages, I never got full value out of him.

Mother suffered from the same problems, being shot almost every time I cast her. But this actually bought a lot of time, because it would delay Zoo's one-drop until it was hardly relevant.

In the then upcoming tournament I went with UGB-CB-shell, because I like it best and UGB has never really let me down. I went 2-0-1, 2:0 wins vs Merfolk and Reanimator, draw vs 42.lands (can this actually be won preboard?).
The other rounds of the tourney were team-sealed, I don't think they should be discussed here ;)

you can beat lands w/ CB, in fact, they cant win if you get a 2 drop on top.
that deck just sits there once it cannot cast life from loam.
granted, you just need more threats out than they got maze of iths (& tabernacle).

its a rough matchup, no doubt but i think the new cb decks are adjusting.
some are running enlightened tutors main to get bullets like back to basics, pithing needle, tormod's crypt... (aj sacher's list)
some are using trinket mages to do the same... (probasco's gp chicago shell)

i don't think baseruption type builds are going to cut it in today's metagame, which has moved on and adapted.

Lands adapts, too - they have Intuituion to grab all kinds of good stuff and 4 Tolaria West for Explosives and Academy Ruins.
You'd have to set up pretty damn big with CB @2+3, multiple Force in hand for their attempt to cast explosives @2 for CC4, something to beat down, while they may not draw more Maze of than you have creatures.

Once they don't have access to maze or you Needle it postboard, I find it very winnable, but before that you don't have much of a clock and they have infinite Explosives for your board....

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Originally Posted by fallenphoenix

Lands adapts, too - they have Intuituion to grab all kinds of good stuff and 4 Tolaria West for Explosives and Academy Ruins.
You'd have to set up pretty damn big with CB @2+3, multiple Force in hand for their attempt to cast explosives @2 for CC4, something to beat down, while they may not draw more Maze of than you have creatures.

Once they don't have access to maze or you Needle it postboard, I find it very winnable, but before that you don't have much of a clock and they have infinite Explosives for your board....

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Couldn't we just sideboard in Wheel of Sun and Moon? It also helps with other graveyard based decks like Reanimator and Dredge.

Needle and any kind of graveyard hate is usually fine for me.

Explosives and Maze are the most important cards to name.
You need to handle Maze, to be able to win in time, otherwise they can just go for the time-out.

If I have Needle + Beatstick I tend to name Maze.
If I have CB/Top + Needle I name Explosives.
(As a general rule, of course thinking on your own is recommended, because every situation is a little different)

Crypt and Relic are also neat, Ley-Line/Wheel should be fine, too, but I like to be able to remove the graveyard once I topdeck my grave-hate.

My problem however is not winning post-board, it's winning pre-board, which I find very difficult.

In my experience, Jace TMS + having the right counters so that they don't shit their hand out in the early turns + CB@2 is a good plan that has worked enough times for me against Lands.dec to make me confident in that MU.

I was wondering what you guys play in your NO CBT decks? I am wondering how to keep the deck viable and diverse

I can only say what I play but mine looks something like this
4 tarmogoyf
4 noble hierarch
4 rhox war monk
1 wall of roots
1 progenitus
1 dryad arbor
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's diving top
3 natural order
3 daze
1 jace, the mind sculptor
4 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 island
1 plains
1 forest
1 volcanic island
in the side i have 1 other volcanic and 3 firespout.
I like playing the jace but i could see it going to the side and only being brought in against control. By doing this I could up the 2cmc by a card giving me 13 or could up the 3 to 5 cards.
The wall of roots is cool because its a good defense if you draw it, green for natural order, and makes mana. Overall pretty cool, but not something I would really want more than 1 of.
I once had 3 in the deck, and it really was too many and not enough pressure with the deck.

The Mother of Runes/Stonforge Mystic plan is solid, IMO, I've been running both in Supreme Blue /r with Fire Spout in the SB and it justs rolls Zoo, FWIW. Mother of Runes/Stoneforge Mystic are like BANTs Noble Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage, they give you a mechanic that allows you to beat the Tarmogoyf and Rhox Warmonk stalemates while generating tempo (by casting Equipment at instant speed and preventing STP in response to equipping.)

It certainly doesn't make sense in a NO shell, but if you aren't playing NO and you are playing the Planeswalkers then it's a pretty solid plan because MoM is like one of the best 1 drops in the game right now for virtual card advantage and combat.