IGG is better than Etw in the storm mirror and against vengevine.Quote:
how come you kept IGG in there? Bryant made it pretty clear that EtW is almost always a better plan than IGG especailly against blue.
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IGG is better than Etw in the storm mirror and against vengevine.Quote:
how come you kept IGG in there? Bryant made it pretty clear that EtW is almost always a better plan than IGG especailly against blue.
seems quite narrow...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia_Bot
Blue decks are a much broader application
Turn 2 ETW is no longer sufficient to beat Survival decks. If I wanted more cards that were only good on turn 1, ETW would be fine, but I'm often forced to play more than a single turn in a match.
I should know the answer to this, but what's better against a field of fishies/survival ANT or TES? Lots of EE floating around, too.
If you have 4 Xantid Swarm, 4 Thoughtseize, and 3+ Chain of Vapor in your 75 it doesn't matter if you have Preordains or Burning Wishes in your deck.
So you're saying if I run:Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
MD
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
and
SB
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Chain of Vapor
I'll be OK?
Hmm,.. Could you not just go another route? I don't think I can buy that as a reason to play IGG over EtW in the mainboard considering you can just as easily Ad Nauseam turn 2 than to go for an IGG loop.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I don't understand this survival phenomenon; don't they need surival to race us? Isn't that like turn 3 at best?
He's saying if you have that stuff,.. it doesn't matter if you play ANT or TES (some see the difference between the two as Burning Wish vs PreOrdain). It doesn't matter if some are mainboard or some are in the sideboard, either way they are good against those match ups (75 = 60<mainboard> + 15<sideboard>).Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
I didn't say I'd recommend IGG (I run 2 AdN). I just don't like ETW. Survival is at best turn 3, but even at turn 4, they have the ability to survive a medium to large ETW which gives them a chance. I don't like giving a favorable matchup a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
@jin: My meta has a lot of Burn, Affinity, and Zoo, running IGG is very important for me to consistently beat those matchups without having to ever worry about my life total if I am forced to keep slower hands. I also really like the turn 1 Mindtwist effect if IGG + Rit + Petal or something like that is in ur hand. This is a ridiculously strong play against a lot of the field. Also, IGG just gets there most of the time, and with Swarm you don't care about them getting back counters, also, when playing against CB, they lack realy hard counters and if u have extra mana for the IGG loop u just bring back a Duress in stead of a DRit and keep going. I just love the versatility of the card and the free wins it enables.
EtW is not good in my meta. It will rarely get there, people love their EEs, Pyroclasms, and Firespouts. I really just prefer IGG, especially with Swarm in the main. EtW is just a crapshoot with way more variance than AdN. If u don't combo off quickly enough OR don't have enough storm, EtW is just miserable. Its at the point where, if u are on the draw, a turn 2 EtW for 10 is not gonna get there a lot of the time, especially against something like Goblins or Zoo. I have actually been outraced by D&T with their Vial tricks. IGG gets there, much like DD u can do the math beforehand and you will know if u can win or not. Everytime I cast EtW I feel like I'm flipping a coin.
What I meant by the all-in thing is play it safe and always assume ur opponent has whatever u don't want to see, and I base my plan around that. Game 1 if I have a really fast hand I usually Duress first unless I know what they are playing, and against blue I rarely go all-in on an LED play unless I see an opening and feel taking a chance is worth it, cause that 40% chance of having FoW in their opening hand feels more like 80%. But if I have a ridiculously aggressive opening 7 with no protection or cantrips, sometimes u have to roll the dice.
That's true,.. you didn't say you recommend it. Sorry about my assumption. So in the end you would just use Ad Nauseam as an engine over IGG unless circumstances prevent you from doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Wooo, I like that last statement. That would make a good quote. It's so merciless.
Oh that really clears things up about your reasoning behind IGG over EtW. I know what you mean about how sometimes EtW could feel like a coinflip since you never know what kind of anti-goblin token cards your metagame might be packing. I guess that's why I've copied Bryant in Chanting on the last turn to prevent any nasty surprises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
IGG being a Mindtwist. I've used that one as well. I understand how that can be devastating to some decks escpecially combo mirrors.
Thanks again, I think I understand your train of thought with the opening hand and about going all-in. Based on that, it is safe to assume to always leave fodder for FOW and sometimes float 1-2 extra mana for daze/pierce etc. depending on build and archtype of the deck! I think I will try more first turn Duress plays seeing that that is what the veterans of combo are doing.
I more or less agree with this. I've only got two Chains, though. I usually don't want to board very many cards out and I wanted to have some Confidants in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I'm really liking Dark Confidant in the board, especially against discard. It sucks being on the draw game 2 and getting hit with turn 1 Dark Ritual/Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Winning with a lower storm count is a bonus.
Quote:
It sucks being on the draw game 2 and getting hit with turn 1 Dark Ritual/Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach.
bolded for justice.
(does anyone else enjoy it way too much when the other guy has the absolute nut draw and you just peel running Diamond into Infernal and obliterate them anyway? nice deck, idiot.)
This has happened to me once, well once that's notable. It's game 3 against Eva Green and I keep a greedy hand with:Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
U. Sea, Gemstone Mine, Chant, Dark Rit x2, LED, Petal
He Hymns me turn one. I lose U. Sea and LED.
I topdeck Ad Nauseam.
But that's probably not what you're talking about...
I never keep an only mana hand. A lonely chant, doesn't give you many options.
I played in a SCG Legacy Challenge in Richmond. Just 4 rounds, as it is a "practice event" for the Legacy Open on Sunday (which I will not be playing in). Nevertheless, the tournament is $5 for those who played in the Standard Open and 1st place is $50 store credit, with bad prizes paying down to 2-2.
OBVIOUSLY, I wanted to play Landstill but that deck is not good in a field of approximately 30, 16ish of which feature decks with Survival of the Fittest and the rest consist of a combination of Merfolk, Lands (I was shocked!), UW Tempo (MORE SHOCKED!), a couple people playing Tempo Thresh (one of which was my friend) and Zoo. Since I lose to approximately 5% of the field playing TES, I make the wise choice and play the good deck.
My 75 was Bryant's standard list, with sideboard modifications (ish).
Land (13)
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Creatures (who plays bad cards?)
Artifacts (12)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Spells (35)
1 Ad Nauseum
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
1 Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard (15)
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Grapeshot
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
Note: I really wanted the 1x Pyroclasm to be 1x Virtue's Ruin but not only did SCG not have one for sale but also no one in the building seemed to have ever heard of the card. I guess I'll have to deal with a card that kills Meddling Mage, Ethersworn Canonist and Gaddock Teeg but not Progenitus. Oh well...
Round 1 - Mary (didn't catch the last name) playing Zoo
Game 1, she cast turn 1 Wild Nacatl. I proceed to Burning Wish for IGG and win the game.
Sideboard:
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 either Chrome Mox or Ponder (I don't remember)
+2 Echoing Truth
Game 2, she starts with 2x Leyline of the White in play. She plays a land and passes the turn. We play draw-go for a couple turns, while I build mana and she misses land drops. On her turn 4, she casts Figure of Destiny. I decide my turn 4 is an acceptable time to cast Ad Nauseum, draw a bunch of cards - including the Echoing Truths - and win the game.
1-0-0 (2-0-0 in games)
Round 2 - Bill Lewis playing Mono-Blue Merfolk
Game 1, he wins the roll and leads with Island into Aether Vial. Shit. He casts turn 2 Silvergill Adept, revealing Silvergill Adept. He misses his 3rd land drop and casts Coralhelm Commander and hits me for 2. I figure it's now or never, so I ramp mana and go off unprotected. He doesn't have the Force and I make 16 goblins which go the distance.
Sideboard:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Duress
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Ponder
+1 Echoing Truth
+3 Pyroblast
Game 2, he casts Aether Vial on turn 1. I do nothing on turn 1 and he does nothing on turn 2. I cast Duress on my turn 2, which reveals land, Daze x2 and Reejerey. He casts Cursecatcher on his turn. I do nothing on my turn. On his next turn he puts a lord into play, so I know he has nothing but Daze effects to protect him. I end of turn Pyroblast the Cursecatcher (because I can play through 2 Daze but not 3). He Dazes and I don't pay (I wanted him to let it resolve and have him double Daze on my turn to up the storm count, but oh well...) I go off on my turn and poop 14 guys into play. Unfortunately, he draws Silvergill into lords. I smash down to 1, but he ends up being able to attack for 19 in one swing.
Game 3, he shows me a mulligan hand of 4x Wasteland and an Island. I'm looking at my Gemstone Mine, Bloodstained Mire, 2x Pyroblast, Duress, Burning Wish and LED very excited he didn't keep it. I draw a ritual, play a land and pass. He plays a land and passes. I draw another LED, play a land and pass on turn 2. He plays a Silvergill revealing Silvergill. I cast Duress on turn 3, seeing Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept and Blue Elemental Blast. I take out the Spell Snare. I can't go off that turn so I pass the turn. He casts Cursecatcher, which I respond with Pyroblast. He Spell Pierces. Good. I don't pay. On my turn, I ramp mana, cast Burning Wish. He attempts to BEB it. I Pyroblast back. Wish resolves. I grab Infernal Tutor. Infernal Tutor finds Empty the Warrens and I drop 16 guys into play. He draws land and not lords this time and I get there.
2-0-0 (4-1-0 in games)
Round 3 - Jason Raflowitz playing BGW Ooze Survival
Game 1 is really awkward. I keep a bad 6 of Lotus Petal x2, Ponder, 3x land. I turn 1 Ponder into Brainstorm and pass. He casts Thoughtseize and rips out my Brainstorm. He slowly tries to build and hits me down to 14 by attacking 3 straight turns with Fauna Shaman (weird). I still have garbage but decide to Duress him. He responds with Enlightened Tutor to find Survival. I see he has 2x Vengevine and Necrotic Ooze in hand and make him discard nothing. I'm surprised Fauna Shaman has been attacking... He casts Survival, discards Vengevine finding Vengevine, discards Vengevine finding Basking Rootwalla, discards Basking Rootwalla....RESPONSE TO THE MADNESS TRIGGER....I cast Orim's Chant with the kicker. He finds Shield Sphere and passes the turn. Finally, I draw a Burning Wish but don't have lethal storm or an IGG loop available, so I Diminishing Returns...into nothing. I lose two turns later.
Sideboard:
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 either Chrome Mox or Ponder
+2 Echoing Truth
Game 2, I win on turn 2.
Game 3, I keep a hand of 2x land, 2x LED, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseum. He casts turn 1 Cabal Therapy naming Lion's Eye Diamond. Well, shit. C'mon Brainstorm! No Brainstorm on my turn. On his turn, he casts Noble Hierarch, flashes back Cabal Therapy naming Burning Wish... and then casts another Cabal Therapy naming Ad Nauseum. I am officially neutered, as he casts Survival of the Fittest on his next turn... sad...
2-1-0 (5-3-0 in games)
Round 4 - Matthew Webster playing Mono Blue Stax
I see the guy has "Faerie Stompy" written on his deckbox. I joke around about Sea Stompy and imply he better not cast Trinisphere on turn 1.
Game 1, turn 1 I play a land and cast Ponder. My 6 at the end of the turn was 2x Dark Ritual, 2x Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Ponder. He plays Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond, Trinisphere. Well, dicks... I play draw-go with him, not drawing any lands. He Wastelands my only mana source but is also stuck on Ancient Tomb and Mox Diamond only. A couple turns later, I still have no land and he finds Crucible. I scoop.
Sideboard:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Ponder
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
Game 2, he mulligans to 4. I Duress turn 1 to stop Chalice shenanigans. Sure enough, he had a Chalice so I force him to discard it. The remaining 3 cards were Tezzeret, Crucible and Smokestack. He draws a card and passes. I decide to go for the win on my turn. I Ad Nauseum into triple Dark Ritual, triple Duress, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, a couple Rite of Flames and a Burning Wish. I decide to cast my Dark Rituals and Rites and then Duress him again, in case he drew Mindbreak Trap. He did not, so I went and found Tendrils for the win.
Game 3, he mulligans to 6. He plays an Island and a Chalice for 0. I Duress him and he has Chalice, 2x Mox Diamond, Crucible. I make him discard the Chalice. He plays his land but I can't win yet because I have LED and Lotus Petal (which don't help with Chalice @0) but not enough ritual mana. I Ponder into Rite of Flame and rip another Rite of Flame off the top. Those, combined with the Rite from my opening hand allow me to Burning Wish into Empty the Warrens for 16. He had two turns to find a Propaganda or the Tabernacle that was apparently in his deck (that would have been a blow-out) but it didn't come. Goblins got there.
3-1-0 (7-4-0 in games)
That was enough to give me 6 packs, but my final opponent and I decided before the round to split packs, with the winner getting the extra pack, so I won 4 packs. Not good but I had fun playing the deck. Still steaming about the loss to BGW Survival... Interesting, I beat Merfolk and Stax but not Survival...
I don't know what justice means, but if it is what I think it means, that was pretty funny. Oh yes, it is to my understanding that double LED plus tutor wins games,.. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
I strongly agree. Even if I see double Dark Ritual or double LED, I'd shift that back. You never know when business will come, but you know you will always draw mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocho
Interesting card choice here. I would think Duress is strong against fish. I want to ask a question here. I also notice that Bryant sides out Chrome Mox versus Fish. This is a choice I do not understand outside of not using Ad Nauseam as an A-plan. Fish plays Wastelands, and soft counters. These can be annoying for TES with our gemstones and pain from city. Wouldn't keeping Chrome Moxes in as additional mana sources be more reasonable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
The playing style of TES against a discard strategy is very differnt from one with a countermagic strategy. I just learned that recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
@ Jason, if you know that you are playing a strong discard deck...
isn't it worth the gamble to go land, rite, led, led, burning wish into diminishing returns with 2 mana float?
since diminishing returns fails about 40%, in that case you just have a new hand (and 10 exiled cards)
if you are pondering into a single piece of business, you will want to keep that card hidden on top if you aren'tgoing to use it immediately.
Given these circumstances:Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
-2 cards are needed to combo off
-0 cantrips in hand
-0 fetchlands in hand
Is it the correct play to Ponder and shuffle/draw if the top 3 cards contain only 1 combo piece but no other cantrips or fetches? Because if you keep the 1 combo piece, you're timewalking yourself twice. And if you shuffle/draw there's still a chance you'd be timewalking yourself.
I'm assuming it's better to shuffle/draw in this situation?