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Wow infamous!
Interesting SB. Many answers wishable and interesting approach overall.
As I wrote you in private message I would like to learn how to play with 12 lands and 3 spirit guide correctly, so i can compare the goldfishing with my results (want to do this since I saw the list in the top 4, but no time so far).
I guess if I ask you what your plan vs. ANT, TES is, you tell me wish for revoker?
I think the best plan against ANT/TES is to try and go off as fast as humanly possible. If you do need to Wish on turn 2, I think Wasteland would be more effective than Revoker unless they actually have already dropped their LED for some reason.
Against Belcher you wish for Revoker. The EtW plan is actually not that threatening given how many dudes you can put out.
Wish build with VV in the board. It's working pretty well in testing. I still have 6 wishable slots, which has all the important guys there, and wishing in shusher and VV has also proved relevant in some scenarios. They usually let the wish resolve thinking they will counter whatever you get but then you get shusher and they can't, it's great!
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard:
3 Buried Alive
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Masticore
1 Regal Force
3 Vengevine
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Viridian Zealot
I don't think you should rely on them waiting to counter what you Wish for; but I can definitely see Shusher coming up in a scenario where they've just dropped CB and you can resolve 1 Wish before they untap and start Topping. In that scenario, Shusher would be priceless. I'm actually kind of disappointed in myself for forgetting about the card. I'll have to cut something for it.
Welcome to the thread IBA.
I would suggest you re-evaluate the usefulness of Wirewood Symbiote in your build. He serves as a lightning rod against spot removal, and unmolested provides you with an insane amount of card advantage, both in the form of recycling Elvish Visionary, and in giving you infinite chump blockers. He also gives you the option of recycling Quirion Ranger to untap a Priest/Archdruid 3 times in one turn.
My recommendation is to reduce the number of Quirion Ranger/Fyndhorn Elves to make room for upto 4 Wirewood Symbiotes. In the cases that you do end up using Glimpse, Wirewood Symbiote provides more gas to continue drawing cards.
Ya it's definitely relevant. And they are very likely to let wish through G1, and after that he can go MD so it works out anyway.
I really think cutting summoner's pact for GSZ slows the deck down too much (and loses glimpse activations).
Why kamahl over ezuri?
I tested wasteland a lot in the board and it eventually just seemed like a waste.
I really like VV in the board, and bringing them in G2 with buried alive is just lethal against control.
In all my testing, eternal witness is not good.
If Terrastodon can be afforded, then usually Emrakul can as well. I had him in the wishboard for a while but took him out cause he was never relevant.
GSZ is far faster than Summoner's Pact if you're not Glimpsing, since Summoner's Pact adds four rather than one to the cost of everything you play. It's also a very dangerous four in that you lose if they wipe out your mana elves. Summoner's Pact was absolutely useless outside of comboing off, and even then it was terrible if the combo fell short of being able to cast Emrakul. I've never once felt tempted to go back.
Reasons for Kamahl over Ezuri were outlined in my post.
Wasteland is the best Wish target against combo much of the time, particularly against Doomsday combo. It also can be your only hope in a scenario where you're playing against 3cc Landstill and want to take out their Volcanic Island so they can't Firespout your board. It can also take out a Glacial Chasm that's standing between you and victory. It's just a really useful card to be able to Wish for.
VV seems like a fun plan, but I don't think I have room for it in my Wish board. I can see the strengths that running 3-4 postboard would bring though.
Eternal Witness is one of the shakiest slots, yes.
Eight is a lot less than fifteen, but I'm still testing the wishboard. It's true that I haven't used Terastadon much.
I also love Wirewood Symbiote more than many men living, but its non-elfy nature means I often don't want to draw it. I do have 9 ways to get one when I really want it.
If you look at the last page the pact-->archdruid play on turn 2 is amazing. It's extremely relevant when not comboing, and makes your aggro clock faster than GSZ since getting archdruid means the next turn you only have one elf tapped, and a bunch of 2/2s. Not to mention if you have quirion in play you can easily untap him to play another lord and have a bunch of 3/3s.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Pact ---> Archdruid on turn 2 is close to the worst possible thing you could ever do. If they have any kind of removal you just lost the game. Under no circumstances should anyone ever propagate the idea that this is a good play or will increase your overall chances of winning, ever. For the exact same mana you can GSZ for Priest, which doesn't give your dorks a bonus but does have the advantage of not probably killing you.
eta: Maybe, maybe if your metagame is entirely Merfolk.
etetata: Like, seriously, even a fucking Mogg Fanatic on your Fyndhorn/Llanowar will kill you in that situation. This is an absolutely terrible idea.
etetetatata: And what, your amazing turn 2 play results in you doing nothing on turn 3 in an optimal situation but paying echo? I'm failing to see the explosiveness. If that had been GSZ for Priest you could go nuts that turn.
Ok well if you expect removal I think it's pretty obvious that you don't make the play. I have won many games this way, and I suggest you try it before knocking it. I have made it many, many times and it has never lost me the game because I know when not to make it. People are too afraid of pact. If you are a good player you won't die to it, you just need skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
GSZ into priest is not as good because a) like you said your dorks aren't bigger and b) you need to have a card to dump mana into in your hand in order for preist to be worthwhile. Archdruid is valuable on his own.
The reason this play is so good is because he beefs up your guys and pays for himself. Priest just adds more mana which should never be necessary if you know how to play the deck. I really think running preist is a very bad idea. I've tested it a lot and the builds that use it are nowhere near as efficient.
Responding to your edits: Turn three you swing for 6-12 depending on how many guys you had out and if you could play another lord. Turn two you pact Archdruid. Turn 3 you tap him to pay the pact and you still have 3-4 untapped guys and you swing with. You swing for the win the following turn.
I would say that something like 99.9% of the decks you will play against in Legacy outside of the 0-X bracket either run removal or can kill you or lock you out of the game by turn 4.
I have literally no idea what decks you are playing against where you can afford to take this risk in order to not make any other plays on turn 3 except paying the echo for your dude.
Like, honestly. What are you playing against that puts so little pressure of any kind on you?
You are mistaken that you are only echoing your dude. You use Archdruid to pay for the pact and have all the other dudes you could put out untapped. You swing for 6-12 on turn 2. This is an aggro clock that is faster than Zoo.
Furthermore, even if archdruid gets removed you still have 3 guys out and a land so you can pay for the pact anyway. You dont die to a single removal spell.
I'm struggling to imagine what scenario you think this fits. Like, I guess you're thinking you go first turn Llanowar, second turn another dork + Heritage Druid, drop Archdruid? But you're attacking for 0 on turn 2 in that scenario, not 6 and certainly not 12. You don't even run ESG so there's no fantasy scenario available there. And even in that scenario you can't both swing and have mana on turn 3. I guess if the remaining cards are a Quirion Ranger and a Living Wish you're doing okay; but Living Wish for Regal Force still taps you out. If that had been a Priest with no echo cost associated, you would be able to get and cast Regal Force here with plenty of mana left over to go nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Supporting running Summoner's Pact based on fantasy scenarios where the opponent doesn't play removal seems frivolous to me, especially when even such scenarios don't really give you optimal results.
That was a type-o. 6-12 is turn 3Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Let me spell it out for you. Here is the minimum payoff scenario. When you only have 3 guys in and no extra lords:
T1- land, dude
T2-land, dude, heritage, activate and pact for archdruid (note that if archdruid is in hand you can also pact heritage, or if both in hand pact a 3rd elf, and if you don't have a second land you can use a quirion to make it possible. There are many, many ways for this to happen)
T3-pay pact with archdruid, swing 6 with all 3
Other ways to make it better:
-Play a second lord
-Dump more than 3 guys on T2 before pact
-Play more guys on T3
-Have an untapper and untap ardruid, tap again for 4, activate heritage, and cast regal force or pact for him on T3- usually results in going off since you still have lands available.
That makes more sense. But why are you going aggro? The only scenario where I can imagine this being better than simply GSZ for Priest is against an Ad Nauseum deck where you're just trying to neuter the titular card. But that's a very niche scenario. The reality is that it's much more likely you'll be playing against removal where Summoner's Pact is useless except going off. GSZ is full utility and seems much the better card here.
It's better in every hand that doesn't have a wish or glimpse, since it means you don't have to wait.
As I said before, even with removal you can still pay the pact. It's actually quite hard to die to it in this scenario aside from sweepers.
All they need in that fantasy scenario is two pieces of removal. Or Hell, just to counter the Archdruid. Or EE at 1.
I would say that your case that Summoner's Pact can be useful outside of combo clearly fails to pass scrutiny. It's a marginal dream scenario that folds to numerous widely played cards.
Isn't what you're describing here a fantasy scenario that they deal with archdruid or have the EE@1? (i.e. we are arguing for the sake for arguing and gets nowhere because kth2j will say this and that to get out of it, and you will create situations that falsify his claims?)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
kth2j is mentioning that the POTENTIAL to turn 2 archdruid has its own value, as in the 'minimum' example he presented.
Having an Engineered Explosives or two pieces of removal or one piece of removal and a Daze isn't a fantasy scenario. Having turn 1 mana elf, turn 2 elf Heritage Druid into Pact for Archdruid is. The latter is many times less likely than the former. The latter offers value over, say, GSZ for Priest only in a few limited scenarios, meanwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
It's not enough to say that something can be good. Will it actually be good more often than the next best available choice? In this case, no. Pact for Archdruid in that scenario presents enormous risks and offers minimal rewards over GSZ for Priest, or waiting a turn and GSZ'ing for Archdruid + swining the same turn for at or near the same damage with no risk of losing the game to removal.
I'm unclear on why one would want to run the Buried Alive/Vengevine package over the Natural Order/Progenitus package out of the board.
I saw somewhere back in the posts that the Buried/VV plan was a whole turn faster compared to NO Prog. This doesn't seem very likely to me as VV can be chumped and Progenitus presents an unkillable target in comparison (both die to Perish). I'm also pretty sure NO/Prog has a better chance of getting through Counter-Top as 1-2 Jaces and possibly a Moat are there only 4's as compared to 3's at Trinket Mage, O-Ring, Firespout, K-Grip.
Additionally, Buried Alive/VV requires 7 slots in the board as compared to 5 for the NO/Prog plan. With sideboard space being at a premium in Legacy, this is not an insigificant difference.
The living wish plan is interesting, but it should be noted that placing your Emrakul in your SB now effectively allows Emrakul to be countered (countering the living wish).
I also think running 4 GSZ 4 Pact is correct. You want redunancy and tutoring for consistency in the combo. The draw engine is key to the deck and having more virtual copies of Regal Force or your missing pieces helps you reliably go off and not rely on a very subpar and fragile beatdown plan. What are thoughts on a 2nd Regal Force?