[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

So I might as well title this as "Lessons and Theories". To be specific, I experiment with different versions of Manaless Dredge and lessons that I have learned from each one. I have tried the traditional "Hollywood" List and I have gone as far as using Unmask, Gitaxian Probe, Chancellor of the Annex to using Leyline of Sanctity.
This a tournament report with what I think is my fastest list and very very far from perfect. I'll write up my current list and possible choices that I have used and what I have found. I will further explain my choices after I give a brief summary of the tournament.

And now...without further delay. I present to you...my deck list lol

4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ichorid
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Dryad Arbor
4x Gulgari Gravetroll
4x Gulgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Griselbrand
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Forest
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
2x Shambling shell

Sideboard:
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
4x Reverent Silence
4x Nature's Claim
4x Leyline of Sanctity


Round 1 Against Matt/ Dragon Stompy (From what I could tell) Win
Game 1: The only thing relevant from this game was a turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker on Phantasmagorian. The game was finished by a turn 3 Griselbanned>Flayer>Troll
Game 2: Was over quick by a turn 2 Grisel>Flayer>Troll

Round 2 Against John/ Esper Blade of some flavor. Loss
Game 1: Ended up with me going down to one life from Griselbrand and winning through Flayer/Troll
Game 2: I lost due to a random fluke of getting all 4 Nether Shadows in on the second turn in my hand of no dredgers. They were Surgical Extracted soon after I threw them in the graveyard via Phantasmagorian.
Game 3: No dredgers or gas of any kind.
Note* I am not discrediting my opponents play skill at all. John is a very calculated and deliberate player and an utter blast to play against. The point I am trying to make is that I wouldn't have won if my hands were better, there is no way of knowing that. But I can assure you, games 2 and 3 would have been closer.

Round 3 Against Chris/ ANT
Round 1: Tendrils kill me early
Round 2: Revert to round 1

Round 4: I didn't get my opponents name/ Some random Dead guy B/W home brew something?
Game 1: The only game we played It was straight Flayer into Ichorid/Shadow recursion.
My opponent didn't know how to handle Manaless and due to the fact that he drew a previous round he didn't have a chance of sliding into the top 8.

Round 5: Jeff/ Some new flavor of show and tell/omniscience/omnimaniac/Infinite Cunning or whatever you would call this Dreamhalls abuser.
Game 1: I lost via some Ant/Clash card.
Game2: I we both opened with LoS and I eventually got there with Zombie beat down.
Game 3: Laboratory Maniac did his thing.

I dropped after that..
So what I have learned. This build is very explosive and I didn't have a complaint about the build. That being said I would change a few things to adjust for what I saw.
First the sideboard, I have seen a few things that have shown that grave hate isn't presented in the usual LotV or Tormod's Crypt. The grave hate I have been seeing is ether none at all, DRS or SE. So it seems people are onto bigger and better things than trying to prove that Dredge is dead. As for what I would change it would look something like this.

4x Nature's Claim
2x Reverent Silence
4x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
2x Verdent Catacombs
1x Unmask

Reasons behind moving Dryad Arbor. One, switching it out with Chancellor of the Annex isn't plan breaking. It has been argued that Dryad Arbor is your answer to decks that main deck hate bearers like Thalia etc. But decks that run cards like that also run Wasteland and from what I have found Dryad Arbor doesn't normally stick around long enough for it to become tapped. Second, another argument is that Dryad Arbor is another creature to be stacked above Nether Shadow. If I need to explain this I truly feel sorry for your deductive skills. To put it in "Connect the Dot" style, one creature is being moved out and one creature is being moved in.

As for changes to the main deck...

4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ichorid
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Gulgari Gravetroll
4x Gulgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Griselbrand
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
3x Unmask
1x Shambling shell

-1 Forest
-4 Dryad Arbor
-1 Shambling Shell
-1 Gitaxian Probe

The reason behind all this is to shore up things like targeted turn 1 discard which has the potential to slow us down. Chancellor has the ability to slow this down as well as slow combo long enough to get Cabal Therapy online. Unmask gets rid of problem cards like RiP, Surgical..Pick your flavor of grave hate.
This is most likely this list I will be running at SCG Baltimore. If anyone as further questions or any productive comment they would like to add I am all ears (or eyes in this case.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jankwolf

As for changes to the main deck...

4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ichorid
4x Nether Shadow
4x Narcomoeba
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Gulgari Gravetroll
4x Gulgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Griselbrand
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
3x Unmask
1x Shambling shell

-1 Forest
-4 Dryad Arbor
-1 Shambling Shell
-1 Gitaxian Probe

The reason behind all this is to shore up things like targeted turn 1 discard which has the potential to slow us down. Chancellor has the ability to slow this down as well as slow combo long enough to get Cabal Therapy online. Unmask gets rid of problem cards like RiP, Surgical..Pick your flavor of grave hate.
This is most likely this list I will be running at SCG Baltimore. If anyone as further questions or any productive comment they would like to add I am all ears (or eyes in this case.)

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Good Luck.
I'd be wary of running so few dredgers. Only 13 is an open invitation for discard and extraction to ruin your day IME.
Unmask & Probe are both only really useful on turn 2. Just sayin...

If you're not running any lands in the main, had you tried Balustrade Spy?
I ran a version (along with RThomas and a few others) with him a few pages ago on this thread, for quite a few weeks in a row - did plenty of testing too.
I found it to be quite effective against decks that pummel your life total quickly, like Burn, Goblins etc.
Personally, I chose to stay with Grisel, but only because I favour Dryad Arbor in the main - no other reason.

Back to the Legend Rule;
We may see cards like Jitte, Thalia, Giest etc. becoming a lot more prevalent. Jitte especially... which I personally hate playing against with this deck, as they can kill any creature we play b4 a Dread Return. I'm gonna be running Manaless the next few weeks and see if I notice any changes in relation to the new rules.

The number of dredgers is fine, I've made it into top 8's with less.
I have one big problem with spy in the fact it's very one sided. Griselbrand is more versatile and in this build is often of the field by turn 2-3. I've taken several sample hands and they all have an element we require to stay competitive. Unmask, Chancellor, Probe or Wraith all generate an advantage of one kind or another.
It's a balance of speed to disruption. I've played several different lists, ones where it devoted everything to speed and others that favored the disruption path of things. I'm not claiming to be an expert on Manaless so what I'm suggesting is just what I think is the best route to go.

In several tournaments I've been in it's important for this deck to do something very relevant on turn two (assuming you're on the draw). I dislike pitching a dredger on turn one and just dredging on turn two. I feel like there are more options available to us than that. I have a whole lot more testing to do before I even try to back up any of my points so right now it's just an idea that I'm going to run with.

Managed to dredge my way into the top 8 of the local WPN premium legacy tournament, also known as Poro Tour Legacy 2013.

I was expecting a lot of RUG delver (I don't think I have even lost a game against it with manaless) so I felt pretty good with my deck selection. Turns out I faced all the other decks instead.

Decklist can be found here:
http://porotour.com/2013/05/26/poro-...-10-decklists/

I tested the Unmask sideboard tech in one tournament before this one, but could not get enough data from that to really decide if I wanted them or not. So I took the safe route and packed 4 Reverent Silences with 4 Nature's Claims.

Don't remember much of the games anymore, so here is just a list of results.

Swiss:
Round 1 Omni-Sneak 2-0
Round 2 UW Control 2-1
Round 3 UB Tezzeret 1-2
Round 4 Esper Blade 2-1
Round 5 Stasis 2-1
Round 6 Merfolk 1-1-1
Round 7 Rw Goblins 2-0

After the cut to top 8 a friend of mine was the top seed and I was the last, so we had to battle each other (that's what I get for going to time in game 3 with merfolk :tongue:). All in all three guys from our group ended in top 8, with one more hanging close by at 9th place.

Top 8:
Quarters UR Nivmagus 0-2

Got crushed quickly by the blue-red elemental eating all the Flusterstorms, so I grabbed my prize money and joined the cheerleader squad.

To celebrate, I will reward my trolls and ichorids with some diamonds. Lion's eye diamonds. So next time I will be filling the graveyards while shooting away with some quadlazers. :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chlb

Managed to dredge my way into the top 8 of the local WPN premium legacy tournament, also known as Poro Tour Legacy 2013.
......
To celebrate, I will reward my trolls and ichorids with some diamonds. Lion's eye diamonds. So next time I will be filling the graveyards while shooting away with some quadlazers. :smile:

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Congrats.
Funny you mention LED's - they're the first thing I purged my store credit towards too!
That and foiling out some of the cheaper cards....:laugh:

This is what I am looking at right now for my manaless version. I am hoping to take this to a SCG Open in August. (If the Meta looks bad for Dredge I will most likely just play Goblins) Thoughts and comments are welcome.


Basic Package.

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Bridge from Below
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Gitaxian Probe

My spin in the package.

3x Balustrade Spy
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Chancellor of the Annex



Legacy for the most part is dead in my area. (Just Moved here from Cali) When I mention it at most of the LGS it is normally confused with ether casual table top Magic, or hateful turn two I am dead logic. Ether way it is hated on. Since Cockatrice is now down I don't have much in the way of play testing I am hoping to come here and bounce a few ideas around. Maybe see what sticks. I will need help with a side tho but I am not to worried about that until the weeks before the event.

• Balustrade Spy

I am using the Spy over Griselbrand because I like the fact that I don't have to pay 7 life to dump my deck into the graveyard. I feel it can be relevant on games against RDW and super aggro decks that can try to race me. Making this choice as also forced me to drop all lands, which is fine with me. I did once ran the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast variant. Then the Dryad Arbor with the 9-12 cards dedicated sideboard. I didn't like it. I am not a fan of swapping out a 1/6 of my deck to help with one possible card in a sideboard. The numbers didn't add up to me. I have since moved away from those two into the fully Manaless version you see now.

• Flayer of the Hatebound

Flayer is my main win-con. It does it dirty work and in a pinch it can be reanimated then sacrificed to a Cabal Therapy to squeak in a few extra points of damage. Hopefully making a couple more zombies for my Army. :P

• 1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Second win-con, gives me options since Ill placed Surgical Extraction can really cripple a Hatebound, Spy or Troll.

• Chancellor of the Annex

I really like seeing this in my opening hands. I helps keep things a little even since my first turn isn't spectacular. Slowing them down even one turn makes all the difference in competitive Legacy. Exspecially if they don't particularly know how to deal with Manaless Dredge.

Well this deck is a lot fun!

Only problem I've had so far has been how to sideboard most effectively, any tips? My list is similar to what chlb ran at this event http://porotour.com/2013/05/26/poro-...-10-decklists/


Chancellor of the Annex instead of Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard.

If theres lots of Deathrites around are 1 shoal and 3 contagion maindeck enough?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsck

Only problem I've had so far has been how to sideboard most effectively, any tips?

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There's quite good sideboarding breakdown in post #541. It's for an older version of the deck but the principles are the same.

Cards I used for sideboarding were the removal package, Phantasmagorians, 1 Flayer, 1 Griselbrand, 1-2 Dread Return. Depending on the matchup and what hate I was expecting, some selection of the mentioned cards got switched out. You don't always need to bring in the forest; if you see no Wastelands you can manage with 4 Arbors and the fetches. The sideboard package I most often brought in was 4 Nature's Claim, 1 fetch, 1 forest/fetch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsck

If theres lots of Deathrites around are 1 shoal and 3 contagion maindeck enough?

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I've found Deathrite Shaman can't really keep up if you can get a good dredge in (this deck being more threat dense than the LED version it happens more often than not). With the standard list in main you got 4 pieces of removal, 4 Street Wraiths, and 4 Phantasmagorians that can beat turn 1 Deathrite. And if you have Chancellors in the sideboard bringing those in can delay Deathrite by one turn.

I played this deck yesterday to a top 4 finish at the MTG Deals Legacy Open. It was just short of 100 players with a $4k prize pool, and we ended up splitting top 4 for $600 each.

Here's the list I played:

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Reverent Silence
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest


The report is from some notes I took, so some of it might be incomplete, but I've tried to recreate the games as best as possible. All games 2 and 3 where the opponent had the choice, they chose to play, unless I made a note of it. I think it was 3 game 2s all day that I had to pass turn 1.

Round 1 - Deathblade

Game 1 - I keep a hand that's something like double Dread Return, double bridge, but no dredgers, and hope I'll see one in the first couple of turns. Unfortunately, I don't see a dredger until the turn before I die to a Geist of St Traft.

Board:
-2 Dread Return
-1 Griselbrand
-1 Flayer
+4 Chancellor of the Annex

Game 2 - I start off with a couple decent dredges. I don't remember him doing anything relevant other than a deathrite that I contagion. A couple turns later, I reanimate 2 Chancellors of the Annex and he scoops.

Game 3 - I get a fast start with a Street Wraith + Dredger hand, and kill him with a growing army of zombies and Ichorids.

Record: 1-0


Round 2 - Dustin Cristos with ANT

Game 1 - He leads off with a Probe, revealing a hand with a couple dredgers. I think I get two dredges in while he cantrips a little, then kills me on turn 3 with a PiF loop while I have the kill in my graveyard for the next turn.

Board:
-3 Contagion
-1 Sickening Shoal
-1 Dread Return
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Griselbrand
+4 Mindbreak Trap
+4 Chancellor of the Annex

Game 2 - He puts me on the play. I get a fast hand with a dredger + Street Wraith + Mindbreak Trap. I get a couple early ichorids to build some early pressure, then he probes me, revealing the Trap I have. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't have a discard spell, and doesn't realize how to play around Trap until after the game. He passes the turn, and I kill him with DRs on two Flayers.

Game 3 - My notes on this one are really short, all it shows is that he combos early, but doesn't quite kill me, then combos again a little later(?). Either way, I lose this one quick. I think I just kept a hand without hate. This ends up being my only loss in the Swiss.

Record - 1-1


Round 3 - Deathblade

Game 1 - According to my notes, he drops a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, but somehow I get dredges in. Eventually leading up to me building a couple zombies and Ichorids up. I therapied him for Stoneforge, but he reveals 2 FoW, 2 Jace and a land, so I just make a bunch of zombies with Ichorids and kill him. This game for me really showed how people absolutely don't know how to play against this deck. He had an active DRS since turn 2, and I was still able to take over the game.

Board:
-2 Dread Return
-1 Griselbrand
-1 Flayer
+4 Chancellor

Game 2 - He gets another turn 1 DRS, as I have a hand without Chancellors and without acceleration. Followed with turn 2 SFM, turn 3 Batterskull, turn 4 Jitte puts the game away for him.

Game 3 - This game went very long, and my notes are pretty short. But I'll try to cover what was relevant. I reveal a turn 0 Chancellor, and the first turn is land go for him and DDD for me. Turn 2, he plays another land, then plays a DRS for just G. I stop him, call a judge and the DRS gets countered, and I start dredging. My dredges were pretty bad, and the game goes pretty long, ending up with me having 5 cards left in my library and being down to just drawing single cards. He had two detention spheres over the course of the game. One snagged 3-4 zombies and the other got a pretty big 10. With 3 cards left, I make a bunch of zombies hoping he doesn't have a third Sphere, and pass the turn. He doesn't and I swing for lethal the next turn.

Record - 2-1


Round 4 - Death & Taxes

Game 1 - He leads off with Plains into Aether Vial, and I discard Phantasmagorian. He doesn't do anything turn 2, and I have Dredger + Wraith to get my yard pretty full on turn 2 by activating Phantasmagorian, cycling Wraith in response, and discarding more. I think I get a Nether Shadow or two that turn, and Therapy for Thalia. I get to see 2 Mindcensors, 2 Revokers, Jitte and Karakas. He plays both Mindcensors and a Revoker on Griselbrand and manages to get me down to 11 before I build up a lethal army of zombies.

Board - I was all set to board in the full enchantment hate package, expecting my opponent to be playing at least a couple RiP in the board, but while boarding, he flips a Relic, and I put everything back in the box and settle for just Chancellors. I end up doing:

-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
-1 Griselbrand
+4 Chancellor

Game 2 - My first few turns are slow dredges and his are Turn 2 Ethersworn Canonist, Turn 3 Thalia, Turn 4 Mirran Crusader. Meanwhile, I just build up zombies by not attacking with my Ichorids, and somewhere around turn 5 or 6 alpha strike with 14 zombies, 2 Ichorids and 2 Nether Shadows. Blocks bring him to 1, then on his turn he draws a card and extends the hand. He showed me his board afterwards which was a couple Relics, the Canonist and a couple completely irrelevant cards.

Record - 3-1


Round 5 - Bernardo (?) with Esper Blade

Game 1 - He has a turn 2 Stoneforge, telling me it's just another Blade deck, but I get lucky this time and I don't even have to play around DRS. I bring back Ichorids for a few turns before killing him with a Flayer.

Board:
Same as the other two Blade decks

Game 2 - I keep a Street Wraith hand and get a couple early Ichorids, he has a StP for one, and adds a Bob to the board. But a turn later, I have the combo finish and kill him with the Flayer.

Record - 4-1


Round 6 - Mike Hadley with Goblins

Game 1 - He leads off with a first turn Lackey, but I have a Contagion for it. I'm able to get a few dredges in, while he builds up a board presence. He manages to get me down to 11 with Warchief and another goblin, but I'm able to DR Griselbrand into the Flayer kill.

Board-
Same as Blade decks

Game 2 - He plays the Sac a Goblin: Add R dude turn 1, and I get a dredge in revealing a Bridge, but no Ichorids/Shadows. He clears the bridge after a turn, but he stays stuck on one land. A couple turns later, my yard is huge, I have a bunch of zombies and Ichorids ready to come back, and he's still on one land with a Relic. If he'd had the relic a turn earlier or had one more land, I would have lost this game, but I got lucky. He told me after the game he kept because of the sac dude and a war marshal in his hand, which would have controlled my bridges for multiple turns.

Record - 5-1


At this point, we all look at the standings and I'm in 7th place, just short of being able to draw in. The Deals crew had finally got their equipment working, and the feature match up, and right before pairings they call me over to be on camera. I was very excited as not only was it the first feature match of the Deals Opens, but it was my first on camera match as well. I know there were some misplays, but overall the match went very in my favor.

The coverage can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/mtgdeals/b/426829677

Pre-match commentary starts at 5:44


Round 7 - Donald Campbell with Belcher

Since it's on camera, I think it might be better to go over what I was thinking during the round, instead of a play-by-play.

When he probed me, I put him on Storm, and the Chrome moxes made me think TES. Once he emptied for 8, though I figured the game was over but I'd play it out. The Contagion + Shoal hand made me feel like if I got real lucky I could pull it off, and obviously drawing the second Contagion was that much better. I felt pretty in control, but knew I had to put the game away quickly at that point because Belcher can build up pretty fast for a second shot. I got really scared when it looked like he might have it, but luckily for me, he hadn't imprinted his second Mox.

Game 2, I wasn't completely sure how to board. I knew I needed both a fast start and my main deck kill spells to survive a turn 1 Empty, but I also needed the full 4 Chancellors and Traps. I believe my board ended up being:

-1 Dread Return
-2 Griselbrand
-2 Flayer
-1 Cabal Therapy
-2 Phantasmagorian
+8 Hate cards

I started the game with the 2 Chancellors, which took Donald completely by surprise, I think. It took him a while to come around to it, but the Lotus Petal was definitely the right play there. Once again, I got super lucky with him deciding to combo a turn too early, and was just able to take the game over with the Therapy and the Chancellors. I'll fully admit I had no right winning this game and didn't expect to. But thanks to a series of small misplays I was on my way to top 8 as the first seed.

There's also an on camera interview about the deck and the match around 50:30.


Top 8 - Quarterfinals vs Geoffrey with Punishing Jund

We do a ballot, and end up playing out the Quarters. Punishing Jund isn't an awful matchup for us, it's a fair deck and as long as we don't get Thoughtseized and Durressed into oblivion, I think it's pretty solid. Interestingly, this entire round, I didn't see a single Bridge from Below. But I luckily had a pretty fair density of recursion creatures that were able to take over the matches for me. It goes to show if your opponent Surgicals your bridges, the matchup can still be very winnable with the right dredges.

Game 1 is pretty quick, he gets me down to 11 with a combination of bolts and fast creatures, but I'm able to Dread Return Griselbrand, then Draw 7 to DR two Flayers for the kill.

Game 2 I had boarded pretty much the same as against the Blade decks. Chancellors keep him off his turn 1 DRS, but he's able to build up a force pretty quick. I dread turn flayer with both of us at 9, and have the Therapy to finish him off.

Top 4 we split for $600 each. I would have played RUG, but wasn't sure if it would be that or Omnitell, so a 50/50 coin flip wasn't worth 360 bucks to me.


Props-

-My buddy Greg Borish who Top 4'd with me playing Punishing Jund
-Leo for keeping me roasty toasty throughout the Swiss with that rice crispy treat
-The MTG Deals staff & judges for a great tournament. Everything was extremely well run and a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to playing in future opens at the Hangar.
-Vietnamese food after the event. Pho is pretty tasty when it's the first thing you've eaten all day.
-Everyone in the event for thinking Dredge was dead and not packing enough hate.

Slops-
-California, for being way too hot in the summertime. That building was like a furnace.

Very well done!

I watched the video of your match with Belcher, and although there were misplays, it was nice to see Manaless do some damage. Very nice.

I also added the video to the Dredge primer!

(Thanks for the shout out!)

good job Birdbrains ^^
i think you have to be more focused to not miss some triggers.

what about miracle matchup , there are none in your area ?

Wowowo, nice to see good results with the deck!!! Makes me feel great about giving it a new chance!!!

@Birdbrains
Congratz on your result.

I would like to discuss something you mentioned in your report though.

"I reveal a turn 0 Chancellor, and the first turn is land go for him and DDD for me. Turn 2, he plays another land, then plays a DRS for just G. I stop him, call a judge and the DRS gets countered"


I am not a judge, but that sounded weird to me so I asked on another board, and the reply of someone qualified confirmed my doubts.

How could the events lead to the DRS being countered ?
You are actually the controller of the trigger of the Chancellor, so if he pays 1 for DRS and both of you forget to put the trigger onto the stack, then the DRS is in play and it's your loss.
If you remind him of the trigger, as you should, he always has the opportunity to pay 1.

So I don't understand that a judge, who you called, ruled that DRS was countered.

Hi Corto,

The ruling was made and appealed, then upheld by the HJ of the event, Arthur Halavais, who's a fairly prominent West Coast L2 (maybe L3 I'm not 100%).

To help understand, here's a script of what happened:

Turn 0: Reveal Chancellor of the Annex, opponent acknowledges.

Turn 1: They play land, go. I draw and discard.

Turn 2: Opponent taps 1 land for Deathrite Shaman.

Opponent: Okay?

Me: Sure. (Opponent attempts to put it into play) That's countered on resolution.

Opponent: Judge!

The reason this works is because Chancellor's effect is a delayed trigger, not a static effect like Thalia or Thorns. Chancellor doesn't require them to pay the extra mana, it triggers if they don't. This lets them, for example, play Abrupt Decay for 2 mana and still resolve it.

You're correct that I'm responsible for my triggers, but I'm not required to play the game for my opponent and tell them that they need to pay 1 more mana. Saying "Sure" meant I acknowledged they were casting the DRS and that I had no response to him casting it. I properly announced the delayed trigger when DRS was countered on resolution.

Edit: also, for reference, the original floor judge Was Kevin Long (L2), the head judge was Arthur Halavais, and I am An L1 with a fair amount of Comp REL experience. I'm 100% sure this is the correct ruling.

So you mean that by having him pay one mana for his DRS, it implies that he let's it be countered ?

Because I think it should have gone otherwise, I'll go in the details :

Turn 2: Opponent taps 1 land for Deathrite Shaman.

Opponent: Okay?

Me: Sure. (Opponent attempts to put it into play) That's countered on resolution.

-> not it's not. You Say sure, but never announces that there is a trigger on the stack.


To make a comparison, if I attack with Emrakul. Declare him attacker, don't say anything, my opponent says ok, then asks if he takes 15 damages and I say yeah, we are on another phase, and I missed
the annihilator trigger. If I say "no : you have to sacrifice 6 permanents ", then the trigger was announced.

You say :" I properly announced the delayed trigger when it's countered on resolution ", but if it's not announced before when the trigger , well, triggers, then that trigger has been forgotten.


I know the judge ruled in your favor, and I'm inclined to respect what a level 2 says, but it goes against a lot of my understanding of the new rules about triggers and whatnot...

Anyway I'll pass this story around me, see if someone can explain it to me in a way I'd understand ( quite of a thick skull sometimes >_< :) ).

Still, happy for your result with dredge ! I love that deck :)

Your Emrakul example is a different beast entirely. You're going through several steps in a phase, and passing visual changes to game state on the way to missing your trigger. In that case, the Annihilator trigger has an effect on the Declare Blockers step, and you made it clear they already took damage.

With the Chancellor trigger, my opponent went from DRS being on the stack to assuming it resolved, not giving me a chance to put my trigger on the stack. I called my trigger at the first opportunity I had. Chancellor also differs from Emrakul in that it has a Default Action (compare to Tabernacle), that is, it says "Do X or Y happens." anytime there is a "missed" trigger with a default action, it's assumed the player did not take the action and the trigger resolves.

So I guess technically you're right, I missed my trigger, but so did my opponent. I also called my trigger at the first available opportunity, which means I did not violate the IPG. Yeah, it's a really gotcha situation, but it's a gotcha card. It did its job to a T, and was within the rules.


Edit: I wrote this pretty hurriedly on my phone while at work and now that I have a minute, let me clarify some things I feel might have gotten muddled.

In Magic there's something called "Default Actions" which are usually formatted as "Something happens, unless something else is done." So for example, on Chancellor, the part that says "Counter that spell unless its controller pays {1}," or on Tabernacle how creatures get "...Destroy this creature, unless you pay {1}." so basically, when the ability triggers the ability is going to do what it says. At the time it triggers, you can pay the costs to stop the default action from happening. If you miss the trigger, it can still be put on the stack, but with the caveat that it will resolve only the default action. So Chancellor will counter the spell and creatures will die because you don't get a second chance to pay 1.

Also the new missed trigger rules only require you to acknowledge the trigger when it has a visual impact on the board. Using the classic Pyreheart Wolf example, if I attack with Pyreheart Wolf and say nothing about the trigger, my opponenr can attempt to block with two creatures, as long as I say "Trigger" and point at the Wolf, it's assumed I didn't miss it, even if he's already moving two creatures onto it. If I let him block with two creatures, however, and say something like "Damage?" or make a life total change, now there's a visual difference to the board state and I've clearly let him block without acknowledging the trigger. In that case, it's missed.

So, looking specifically at him casting the DRS, let's walk through it.

Opponent: Deathrite Shaman? (Tapping 1 mana, putting it on the stack.)

At this point, Chancellor triggers, I'm not required to point out "Hey you need to pay an extra mana" or acknowledge it at this point. He is the Active Player, so when Chancellor triggers he has priority, and passes it by allowing this to happen:

Me: Sure (you can cast your Deathrite)

At this point, the Chancellor trigger has resolved. We both "passed priority" over the stack. So we move on. My opponent attempts to put DRS into play (a visual change), at which point I stop the game. I didn't have a chance to say anything between Chancellor resolving and him attempting to put it into play, so this is the first point I legally must acknowledge the trigger.

So the judge is called and the situation is explained. We look at the game state and the trigger was properly announced/acknowledged in an appropriate time frame. So we look at what the trigger was - a delayed trigger with a default action. The "fix" is that the trigger resolves and the default action happens. We are passed the point where he can pay the mana because it didn't happen when the trigger happened.

Keep in mind as well, this was at a Comp REL event, which is much different than a Regular REL event. You should have a firm grasp on the rules of the game, and are expected to. It's on the player for not knowing that it was a default action. The game state doesn't back up because you made a bad play, it will only back up if there is a fixable GRV, which there was not.

Emrakul was a bad example because it's not a delayed trigger OR a default action, it's simply a triggered ability. And in your example, you clearly advance past the point you can acknowledge it when you say "Take 15?" Delayed triggered abilities are when it says "At the beginning of the next..." or "When blah blah happens,..."

Getting pumped to play Manaless again.

I'm trying out some lists that eschew lands entirely. I'm looking into playing Balustrade Spy as the primary win-condition. So far, I really like it. There's other lists that I'm tinkering with that use lands out of the board with Arbor to win with.

I think the meta is decent for Manaless right now. It really hasn't changed much (at least the hate) from late last year and into this year. We'll see how it rolls out.

I've been playing manaless,lately the classic build with Dryad Arbor. The only difference is Unmask, either as a sideboard or maindeck card. It works really well, it fights for the slots with contagion and sickening shoal, though. I've sent it to the sideboard due to the high number of deathrite shamans that are around, but so far i've liked Unmask's utilty a lot more than contagion/shoal. We need removal to fight those shamans, though, so i guess i'll have to play a generally weaker card that does the job against DRS.

What i like about unmask is that it "fills" the second turn, which is often a dredge-go. Sometimes it's not good to waste 2 turns starting the dredge engine and doing nothing. Unmask helps in that case, specially with cabal therapy (Unmask + therapy = extreme hand raping).
It's pretty cool in g2, too, against decks that you know are playing rip. If they mull to find it, unmask on turn 1 is quite a cool play, which has won me some games. Both miracles and d&t are just not fast enough to compete without rip. Even double time-walking them with unmask isn't a problem.

@Hollywood: I've seen a build with balustrade spy top8ing a 27 players tournament. No lands at all means conceding to every LotV, but saving sideboard slots for stuff like Faerie Macabre+Chancellor+Unmask, and maybe more removal and Mindbreak trap. I would still keep Griselbrand, though. Sometimes you just can't win in one turn,specially in g2, and the spy mills your entire deck. I like Griselbrand's p/t with lifelink, though, it's often useful.

I don't like Balustrade Spy, RDW is not an argument against Griselbrand it is an argument for Griselbrand because he's a 7/7, Flying, Lifelink and doesn't automatically lose you the game whenever he's revealed off of a Show&Tell.

Unmask belongs some where in your 75 if you want to beat Turn 3 Tendrils decks, Chancellor of the Annex is a better answer to Deathrite Shaman than Contagian because it doesn't cost you two turns worth of Dredging and once you've started Dredging Deathrite Shaman is only a mere nuisance. Chancellor of the Annex is also an excellent SB card vs OmniTell.

I cut the 4th Shambling Shell for the 4th Griselbrand awhile ago in order to have MD "hate" vs Show&Tell decks, and I think the 2nd Flayer of the Hatebound is a mistake because you're not trying to combo-kill your opponent, you're ensursing that you wont lose to an Elephant Grass etc. I don't know what the lower bound is for Shambling Shell, but less than 2 is pushing it. One possible solution to the Shambling Shell issue is Serum Powder, where' theoretically any Shambling Shell would become a 7 card mulligan into a hand with a better Dredger while being a blank post-Dredge.

I don't like Dryad Arbor or any of the enchantment removal cards in the SB, Leyline of the Void doesn't exist and Rest in Peace is best answersed by enter scoop phase. I'd much rather dedicate my SB to cards that dramatically turn the tide vs a naturally predatory archetype like Storm, Mindbreak Trap is going to do so much more vs Storm as a 4 card investment than a 15 card investment is going to do vs Rest and Peace etc.

I typically think Probe and Unmask are what the deck wants because it provides it with consistent "2 drops," maybe Unamsk SB and Chancellor MD if Deathrite Shaman is everywhere. Otherwise Faerie Macabre is probably one of the best SB cards left you can play to turn around a match up vs Reanimator and such, and I think if you want to concentrate on just speed the Baubles are the only other card I would consider MDing where the old Bauble Dredge list was just amazingly solid at winning on turn 4 in a gold fish scenario.

Definitely play 4 Griselbrand tho', DRing that guy is GG.

This is really awesome! I started playing Manaless on MTGO because it was so inexpensive to build, and before I knew it people started doing the same thing. ;)

I wish I was better at playing it though. :(