[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by 203995014

For your RUG analysis, is that the general idea vs. all delver decks? Is the Jund matchup any similar to the Shardless BUG matchup?

Thanks for the advice, I've been doing much better.

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The delver decks are similar. The non-rug lists are less focused on your mana so they should be easier. Against Patriot, things like needle and o-stone are relevant because of slower equipment and sfm. UR delver i side in counters to be able to counter price of progress and force things through(like a crop for chasm). Repeal is king against all of them, severe tempo advantage AND card advantage for low mana really messes up their strategy.

While shardless has some nutty draws that will leave them up 7 cards on you, it's again a little less focused than the Jund. Overall they have a lot of weak cards against post, so avoiding devastating hymns and slowing down their draws by controlling DRS is strong. Top is important if games get into the jace zone. Overall I think it's a very positive matchup.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

The delver decks are similar. The non-rug lists are less focused on your mana so they should be easier. Against Patriot, things like needle and o-stone are relevant because of slower equipment and sfm. UR delver i side in counters to be able to counter price of progress and force things through(like a crop for chasm). Repeal is king against all of them, severe tempo advantage AND card advantage for low mana really messes up their strategy.

While shardless has some nutty draws that will leave them up 7 cards on you, it's again a little less focused than the Jund. Overall they have a lot of weak cards against post, so avoiding devastating hymns and slowing down their draws by controlling DRS is strong. Top is important if games get into the jace zone. Overall I think it's a very positive matchup.

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Would you consider Pithing Needle a necessity? What cards would you take out for it if you were to try and find space for it in a deck without it?

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Originally Posted by 203995014

Would you consider Pithing Needle a necessity? What cards would you take out for it if you were to try and find space for it in a deck without it?

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I don't think it's a requirement at all. The main reason I include it is to increase the relevant hate against sneak/show and elves in the 75. Conveniently, needle is 'never dead', and has applications in almost every MU, serving as a 1 mana vindicate. It's nice to be able to throw in a reasonable SB card into the MD. Lastly, it can name wasteland and protect chasm, but that is far from why I play it. If the main combo decks I expect weren't weak to needle, I probably wouldn't play it. But right now, it catches so much especially with all of the equipment in tier 1.

Looking at your list mine is basically identical; +2 Needle, -1 Ponder -1 Candelabra.

What does the community think about trying Wurmcoil Engine as a card vs. aggro? Very difficult to deal with and is entirely colorless. If they try to kill it it craps out babies. Can gain a lot of life for you.

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Originally Posted by 203995014

What does the community think about trying Wurmcoil Engine as a card vs. aggro? Very difficult to deal with and is entirely colorless. If they try to kill it it craps out babies. Can gain a lot of life for you.

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The problem can be summed up with: What to take out for it?

In my MUD-Post, I love the 3-1 split I have of them and it only has to compete with Duplicant, Steel Hellkite, and Blightsteel Colossus for high curve finisher slots, which is only tech anyway.

In Simic-Post, It has to compete with Primeval Titan and the Legendary Eldrazi, all which advance your board an encroach on theirs. It's a tighter squeeze. I'll try it when someone points to where I could make the room.

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

The problem can be summed up with: What to take out for it?

In my MUD-Post, I love the 3-1 split I have of them and it only has to compete with Duplicant, Steel Hellkite, and Blightsteel Colossus for high curve finisher slots, which is only tech anyway.

In Simic-Post, It has to compete with Primeval Titan and the Legendary Eldrazi, all which advance your board an encroach on theirs. It's a tighter squeeze. I'll try it when someone points to where I could make the room.

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I think it competes with the same spots that could go to OStone, Karn, All Is Dust and other sweepers, if you even run them. I've tried Wurmcoil Engine as a "better batterskull" to help with my Goblin problem, but its just too slow and can't be tutored for. MUD can drop their Giant Robot on turn 2 or 3, and we just can't do that.

I think its really to lose focus - this deck has inevitability like no other deck does. The objective should be staying alive so you can reach it, so craft your plan around what you think you need to do to stay alive.

What about back in the days when Thragtusk was considered a good card? If someone were to run Thragtusk in the sideboard, could that be replaced with Wurmcoil Engine or is there something special about Thragtusk?

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Originally Posted by 203995014

What about back in the days when Thragtusk was considered a good card? If someone were to run Thragtusk in the sideboard, could that be replaced with Wurmcoil Engine or is there something special about Thragtusk?

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I never ran Thragtusk, but if I had to guess, you still get the token and 5 life if Thragtusk takes a Swords to Plowshares before you untap while Wurmcoil Engine gives and leaves nothing, but it's probably a preference or meta thing because Wurmcoil Engine is more dangerous the longer it lives.

has anyone tried time spiral, snap, or treachery?

also, has anyone found a build that can compete with the consistency of a general UG build that does not feature primeval titan?

i feel like there HAS to be another strategy that can compete with primeval titan. love the guy to death, but the manacost hurts without a candelabra in play, and i've been running four of them.

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Originally Posted by sun tzu

has anyone tried time spiral, snap, or treachery?

also, has anyone found a build that can compete with the consistency of a general UG build that does not feature primeval titan?

i feel like there HAS to be another strategy that can compete with primeval titan. love the guy to death, but the manacost hurts without a candelabra in play, and i've been running four of them.

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Time Spiral is counterproductive to the plan of this deck, Treachery is bad, and Snap has been shown to be useful, but only as Repeal 5-8. Untapping Lands is useful, but the fact that it doesn't cantrip is a real setback.

Primeval Titan is the reason why this deck exists. Without it, this deck would be pretty bad. He MUST be a 4 of, and if you are having trouble getting Primeval Titan into play without a Candelabra of Tawnos, you're doing something really wrong.

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Originally Posted by 203995014

Time Spiral is counterproductive to the plan of this deck, Treachery is bad, and Snap has been shown to be useful, but only as Repeal 5-8. Untapping Lands is useful, but the fact that it doesn't cantrip is a real setback.

Primeval Titan is the reason why this deck exists. Without it, this deck would be pretty bad. He MUST be a 4 of, and if you are having trouble getting Primeval Titan into play without a Candelabra of Tawnos, you're doing something really wrong.

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This is all spot on. Any 6+ mana spell should be Titan. If you find yourself more often having a lot of colorless, and 1 green mana, you can consider playing (or even splitting) GSZ. I know another post player who has good success with it.

I am more often than not casting it off of 5+ lands if it's hard cast. Rarely, almost never, do I get it off T3 with candle. It's usually island>gp>trop>cp>trop as the most common type of progession that allows tops, repeals, maps and shows to be sent in before Titan. I think of the hardcast Titan to be the 'inevitability' of the deck. Other lines with eye, eldrazis and CPs are also boss, and they an even higher level inevitability.

You have show and tell, Titan, eye, eldrazi. Something has to give, and one will - usually in about that order..

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

I like your list! Nice showings. Are the devastation tides a response to a Merfolk heavy meta? How often do you use them? I am undecided right now..

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Sorry I missed your answer. Yes Devastation Tide was my solution to Merfolk and Slivers (list playing 40 slivers), associated to Elephant Grass. They were good against Slivers, but insufficient againt Merfolk. But I have read you succesfully tested Llawan, I will test it next time.

Gonna be playing in orlando, pretty set on this list atm.

// Lands
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
4 Repeal
2 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Swan Song

Notes:
Want to fit a 3rd needle again. Probably gonna cut an island.
Didn't like oracle, tried it but it was never what I wanted to do, atleast in my meta.
Didn't like the ponders.
Tried the rug lists, bolt was amazing, bonfire ok, sneak attack really good, thinking about trying a rug list with just bolts lol.

How important are Candelabras and Expedition Maps? I've been debating cutting 1 of each for 2 Pithing Needles (I have 3 maps and 3 candelabras).

It just seems like it would improve A LOT of matchups but Candelabras and Maps seem fairly important.

Edit: That's actually how I felt about the RUG list, Bonfires were just too mana intensive.

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Originally Posted by 203995014

How important are Candelabras and Expedition Maps? I've been debating cutting 1 of each for 2 Pithing Needles (I have 3 maps and 3 candelabras).

It just seems like it would improve A LOT of matchups but Candelabras and Maps seem fairly important.

Edit: That's actually how I felt about the RUG list, Bonfires were just too mana intensive.

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I have a love/hate relationship with Map. It's good, but often not fantastic, and sometimes it just doesn't do what I need it to do at all. My current build doesn't run them at all, although without access to cards like Tropical and Candel, I've gone in a different direction: one less conducive to Map.

If I had 12 Candels, I would run all 12 and hope my opponent was too stupid to notice. I'm exaggerating, but only slightly. If you're using Trinket Mage to tutor for your artifacts, you could probably also cut a Candel, but if you aren't, I'd cut Maps first.

Quick report for small event.

The deck:

1 island
4 tropical island
3 tundra
4 misty rainforest
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
3 vesuva
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 eye of ugin

MONSTERS 3
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 kozilek, butcher of truth
1 ulamog, the infinite gyre

CHEATERS 3
3 show and tell

LAND SEARCHERS 10
4 primeval titan
3 expedition map
3 crop rotation

FILTERING 8
4 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm

REMOVALS 10
4 swords to plowshares
4 repeal
2 karn liberated

SIDE
4 force of will
3 swan song
2 flusterstorm
1 glacial chasm
2 oblivion stone
3 pithing needle


R1 vs UW stoneblade 2-1
G1 he play T3 TNN, T4 karakas+ vendilion and I'm not fast enough
G2 long game that I win thanks to oblivion stone and eye of ugin (gone long because he still had karakas+vendilion)
G3 I hardcast emrakul on turn 6 and my opponent kindly concedes me the match (it was the fourth additional turn)

R2 vs patriot 2-0
G1 he ponders, plays stoneforge (which a sword) and TNN but in the meanwhile I assemble much mana and map for eye with crop rotation backup
G2 he's very unlucky since he ponders 3 times shuffling two of them. He doesn't put much pressure and I have all the time to cast a naturally draw emrakul

R3 vs omnihall ID

semifinal vs reanimator 2-1
G1 I begin with land->top, he show and tell griselbrand and I don't even have to use crop rotation because I have karakas in the first 3 cards. I have bojuka bog too :-)
G2 he begins with land, double petal, entomb->inkwell leviathan, exhume and I can't do anything (I had fow bojuka in hand but no blu card to pitch).
G3 I open with cloudpost and my opponent plays land, double petal, entomb->inkwell leviathan, exhume (I felt dejavu...). However I have top, double glimmerpost, crop rotation and titan in hand: I manage to stay alive at 1 life for three turns gaining life via glimmerpost and vesuva till I could safely fetch eye and go for emrakul. This match demonstrates how much this deck is strong.

Final split with Omnihall (it was late too)

Changes I would surely do in the main deck:
-2 karn, +2 oblivion stone

I'm also pondering about dropping white not because it was disappointing but rather to verify if UG is just stronger: however I don't own any candelabra, nor I plan to buy any for ~190€, and I hate to play with proxies.

Do you have any advices? Expecially some sideboard tips (for what to side out) against reanimator would be appreciated.

What did you side for your matches? Do you feel light in the side vs combo?

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Originally Posted by Maagler

What did you side for your matches? Do you feel light in the side vs combo?

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I sided as following:

VS UW stoneblade -1 karn, -1 crop rotation, -1 bojuka bog, +2 oblivion stone, +1 glacial chasm

VS Patriot -2 karn, -1 bojuka bog, +2 oblivion stone, +1 glacial chasm

VS reanimator -2 karn, -4 repeal, -1 show and tell, -1 expedition map, -1 top, +4 fow, +3 swan song, +2 flusterstorm

The problem I had with reanimator is that Sword to plowshares are quite good against them while repeal is not, so in G2/3 I'm quite light on blue cards to pitch to fow (it happened in G2).
Against another combo I would almost surely side out the swords instead, so I'd have 4 more blue cards.

I'm still in the process of learning the deck, please tell me if some of my arguments are wrong.

I'm thinking chasm might come in against reanimator too. Although I probably think this because I'm running a UG list with needles which relies heavily on chasms to win some matches. But It looks like you don't need chasm because you have hard removal maindeck already.

Have you tested terminus?

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