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OMG. that's a pretty sweet black removal spell
swords is still on another league, but that' pretty nice nonetheless
edit: getting less impressed with unmake by the minute lol. 3 mana is still quite a lot to keep untapped, where that mana would otherwise be pumping shade or casting stuff. it's going to see a lot of play in block standard and extended, but legacy has it's own stuff like StP, snuff out, etc
But you then have to keep in mind that more and more players are running a lot of cards to fight off cards that cost 2 or under and rarely pay attention to stuff 3 or more when it comes to payables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtriga
Unmake is that answer for Black to kill off creatures that are of any color while vaporizing the creature in the process. The last great spot removal card that Black ever got was "Smother" and the last great removal card that Black got overall was "Damnation". So this tells the community that Wizards is paying a little more attention to the Legacy Community when it comes to playables.
But anyway, Unmake is going to boot Smother in some sectors as the top removal card.
I'd still run snuff out over unmake in this deck. it's a good card but would need testing, as 3 mana might be a little steep. and it's downright unplayable in any deck other than sui black/ pikula
if splashing white, swords outclasses it, counterbalance or not
Holy shitt!!! It took how long for people to realize this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shtriga
Legacy was turning into "Itcosts3manasoitdodgesCounterbalanceDOTformat":eek:
Screw the Counterbalance. It's the lifegain aspect that sucked about StPing a Dreadnought or even a Goyf.
But StP and Snuff Out are still better regardless.
Needle Specter. I don't think that he has enough to push something out and make room, but perhaps it should be looked at closer? The only way I can see Needle Specter being devestating to your opponent is if it's Jitte'd. Thoughts?
As time passes, I'm more convinced that Roob's list is much better than the usual ones. Mishra's Factories are all nice and shiny, but I simply can't get rid of Nantuko Shade. Maybe it's a card of past times, but what the hell.
I still need to play with that list, though.
I really think it is going to take this deck to the next level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
So yea, wound up playing in my first ever legacy tournament last night (only a local one with something around 21 players), and I had a pretty good time. I used the following list:
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Stromgald Crusader
4x Sarcomancy
4x Dark Ritual
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Smother
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
18 Swamps
Sideboard:
3x Dystopia
4x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
1x Planar Void
1x Duress
Not the greatest list as I am missing a few cards. I still need another thoughtseize (so I will have 4 of those and 2 duresses), plus I need a 3rd needle. I totally forgot that I hadn't switched out the SoFI for a third jitte, that being said it wasn't a total waste (though close).
The first round I played against a painter's servant variant: I won game one, lost game two to mana screw, and won game three. All three games were close (meaning he usually had at least one piece on the board), but usually my discard was too much (especially during a game in which I double hymn'ed grabbing a much needed land).
Round two pissed me off to no end. I played against the most random and janky re-animator list on the planet: mono black with random stuff like a lone grindstone in it. First game I lost because he managed to get his single Lion's Eye Diamond and a Balthor into play with a hand full of big creatures :frown:. Game two a thoughtseize showed that he again had his single LED in his opening hand. I lasted longer this game, but was forced to plop out two Bobs as I hit a land glut. That plus that hybrid 5/3 for r/b r/b r/b wound up killing me. I am really annoyed that I lost to that horrid pile, and even more annoyed that he wound up winning the tournament (I am pretty sure it was just lucky matchups for him/possibly him cheating-things just seemed kinda sketchy with his luck). Oh and question: when is the target for animate dead declared? I thought that I could extirpate the target in response, but people were like "Nooo blah blah." I just wanted to get a ruling on that. Damn stupid round...
Round three was against a pretty crappy affinity deck that beat me first game because I got land screwed. I proceeded to beat the snot out of the annoying kid the next two games though.
Round four was against mono red goblins. Game one the guy mull'ed to five and just couldn't recover (felt kinda bad). Game two however he got off to a good start, but just couldn't keep it coming. I wound up slowly trading and offing his creatures until I was able to plop down an SoFI (only game in which it was helpful :laugh: ) on a Hyppie and win.
I wound up going 3-1 for the tournament coming in as one of the 6 people tied for second (the re-animator guy swept :mad: ), and I technically placed 4th which I believe is pretty good considering this is my first one of these. I got to use the 2 packs of cards as store credit in order to buy stuff for a completely different game (I bet you all can guess what spray paint and glue are used for :tongue: ), plus I was able to buy a blinkmoth nexus for my sister's fledgling affinity deck.
If anyone has any advice for my deck I would definitely take it (I have in the past and it has always been very helpful-this site is great). I must say I would love to turn it into Eva Green as I miss having some fatties/being able to take care of enchantments/artifacts, but the cards are just so expensive.
But yea, thanks for reading!
Announce targets, pay costs...you can most certainly extirpate in response. This is similar to why you can waste your own wasteland or seal your own seal of primordium. Announcing targets happens before the spell goes on the stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damnosus
DO IT! I'm a bit biased, but the deck is a lot of fun :smile:. Sell a kidney or something, you only need one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damnosus
Nice report an congrats on your finish.
I'm also going to a tournament, and I'll probably be playing this list:
Adam Black/Black Death (Sui-Black in an Eva-Green shell):
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tombstalker
4x Ashenmoor Gouger
4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
9x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize
Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
3x Smother
I'm expecting a loam heavy metagame, and probably some fast storm combo deck, ichorid en MUC, so this deck does seem like a good call, but I'm not sure about the Engineerd Plague slot.
Though There were few goblin decks last time I was there (Though they were sitting at the higher table's), it's also a answer against ETW tokens.
My other option is to play more removal or discard in that slot (Cruel edict, cabal therapy,...)
I hope someone can give me some good advice.
Greetzzz,
Robin.
If you are expecting loam, ichorid, and storm combo (ie fetchland tendrills), leyline of the void is MUCH better than extirpate. I would suggest running that instead.
Also, dystopia seems like a stronger card than smother in that board slot.
Hey everyone good thread going so far, however I feel that some thoughts have been neglected and have not been answered and/or tested. Here is a deck list I have been having alot of fun playing with. It seems very solid in testing with the change in the meta. Painters is on the rise beacuse it a neat combo like Flash was. Thresh is still a solid choice to play in any meta. Dreadnought and landstill are coming up in popularity too.
Lands
16 [TSP] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [TE] Sarcomancy
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
Ok at first glance you see the best black creatures combined with the best black discard. There are 2 main routes to piloting this deck. Drop Annoying Sarcomancy and Bitterblossoms and ride on the back of Negator, while sacing useless Sarcomany and tokens from Blossom. Combined Jitte with trample or flying and you have a solid life gain or removal. (sometimes even an awesome Hatred like effect with Negator and Jitte:laugh: )
Jitte also lessens the Suicidal tendency of this deck and provides an out to the late game. (Read all three abilities)
The second route is the "normal" Suicide black plan of attack in Hypie, shade and Confidant backed by discard and pure tempo. In testing so far I've found that you can just out senergy most decks with some explosive starts. Examples:
T1 Sawmp->Dark Ritual->Negator/Hypie.
or T1 Ritual->Thoughtseize-> Hymn
ETC...
I still have alot of testing to acomplish, but I feel this is a good starting path to get this thread back on topic.
Cheers,
Joe
Trancerogue - I like your list a lot. In particular I like how your creature shell makes use of the numerous permanents to maintain Negator on the board. Sarcomancy and Bitterblossom allow for this. In addition, running some equipment to ensure these cards are effective in the mid-late game is also a sweet choice in my opinion.
My critiques: Personally I don't think 8x Discard spells is enough to ensure a solid game against Combo and Control. It does allow for a good game, but Sui-Black should absolutely trounce Combo and Control decks. I'd advocate atleast 10 Discard effects, (Normally Duress is probably your best choice, but in your deck Cabal Therapy might work out. It's hot with bitterblossom, sarcomancy, negator and confidant.) To allow for this space what should be cut?
Your weak cards imo:
1x Shade - Running 3 will be fine here. You've got a alot of early game power and shade is acting more as a finisher.
1x Jitte - Two in your opening hand is useless. Again you'll want to see this card mid-late game to make your smaller creatures more effective. A turn 2 play of Jitte off a ritual is sweet, but you've only got Sarcomany as a turn 1 drop, which makes this play way to dependent on an exact combination of cards. If you were running 4x Carnophage then you might push for 4x Jitte to try to up the probability of this broken play. But then you'd have to rework the entire deck and I like where you're going as is.
1x Bitterblossom - I'm on the edge about this. Bitterblossom in multiples has never worked out for me. A single occurence of this effect usually gets me what I want, having multiples doesn't really add much... kinda a diminishing returns principle. Plus Bitterblossom has to ramp up to become good. I'd cut other stuff first.
Last critique: why are you running Wasteland? If you're not pairing it with sinkhole it loses alot of its value. Both in conjunction are way more effective at disrupting shakey mana-bases. Running only one is pretty much a play designed just to boost your tempo. How many times is your deck relying on tempo to win? What I'd do? Cut the 4x Wastelands and replace it with either 2x or 3x swamps. I think you'll find your manabase is actually more consistent. This also opens up a slot or two for some other goodness. Personally I'd like to see about 3x Snuff Out fit into your deck. Jitte is the only removal you're running. It's good, but it has to be equipped and doesn't help out in the first couple of turns of the game. This is where Snuff Out shines. Alternately you could try just over-running your opponent if you think pushing for more board control is not the direction to pursue. Or you could just cut the Wastelands, drop to 2x Swamp, and add 2x Duress. That's a really simple change trading out disruption for disruption. I think you'll find the discard effects are more important than the land destruction effects too.
I hope that helps. Let me knw your thoughts if you strongly disagree anywhere. Then I'll flame you :)
Lessons from HammafistRoob:
Run ALOT of removal.
I was wondering how Hammafist was winning tournaments, especially when his deck ran only 13 creatures: Confidant, Specter, Negator and a lone Tombstalker (+4 Factories). And 7 dedicated removal spells and 2 Jittes. That seemed overboard to me, but somewhat unique.
I tried it out. His build doesn't play the traditional role of sui-black which is a highly aggressive tempo driven beat-down deck. It can play that role when fueling out a first turn Specter or Negator; but more commonly the build plays a much more controlling game (yeah... who would have guessed).
It was impressive, but I wanteda bit more consistency. The light threat density composed of very tempermental cards has me shakey. I moved out Negator for Dusk Urchin. Urchin + Confidant has allowed some impressive resilience by keeping a steady influx of new cards. Urchin is still large enough to be a good beater, and basically replaces himself when it's all over. Next I subbed in Shriekmaw instead of Smother. This was another boost which sustains the large removal package while acting as a threat if needed.
--
Last thought:
I'm still not sold on sweet Extirpate tech. It can be cool; but how many times would another card be better? Personally I replaced Extirpate with Shade. Shade is solid and I'm sad to see a Sui-build without Shade.
Galroth - You hit the nail right on the head with certain card choices and ideas that I just did not include. I felt that I was on to something that could bloom over time with someone or a compliation of others help.
First: The discard imo was the best that black decks normally run, well since hymn was ever legal and thoughtseize since, well its broken. I chose those cards to illustrate a point in where I was planning to take the deck. They are the best, but while I thought more on this style of play, Cabal Therapy is the Real Deal. With tokens from bitter blossom, Negator and Confidant; I should be able to find ways to make use of Therapy over any other discard spell.
Shade yes he does seem to be a win more card and does bring the deck to the late game, however, I find as much with Negator he is a card that says you must answer me within so many turns or You will lose the game. I find that having him outweights the negative effects that can be caused. Plus most people freak out and nuke him as soon as they can and I've always enjoyed playing another one later on. Im sure he could go either way in this deck and further testing would work. Three might be the magic number after all.
Jitte is a puzzling question and Im not sure what to really think when I play less than four in my deck. (Look at GP Columbus) It is a really powerful effect and has the ability to change games around. I think that I will move 1 out of the main deck and add one therapy to start the changes you suggested becuase I too have drawn them after having an active Jitte.
Deck -1 Jitte + 1 Cabal Therapy
Bitterblossom, such a wonderful card..... Over time!!! LoL You are correct and 3 is the sweet spot and I will test as such. No arguments on the assumtion that it is an over kill when drawn in multiples. My only complaint is everyone wants to kill it! :) But we shall test it out and see how the deck performs.
Deck -1 Bitterblossom + 1 Cabal Therapy
Wasteland the card that is the meta game!!! LoL so true that statment is. You either play it or you run basics. I have been playing Suicide black since the Rath cycle. The deck has always run Wasteland in every list. It has such a powerfull effect, I feel you would short the deck of the raw power of Turn 1 swamp dark ritual Negator, turn 2 waste your nonbasic and duress, therapy and now thoughtseize your hand GG. LOL You understand my point at least and why I'm fighting for wasteland in the deck. It not only has that effect comdined with discard but it provides black the ability to get around troubling lands and other nonsense. I feel in this meta game you either run wasteland or you run ways around it. Do you agree?
Creature Removal my other headache:
You suggested Snuff out and it has been amazing in Eva Green, but that deck does not run any suicide effects besides Fetch Lands. I have to admit it has been amazing to play that card in many match ups and won by dropping quick beats that are backed up by timely spot removal. However, in this deck it would hurt because I would put myself at such low life through the match, confidant and bitterblossom, I feel that I would lose games to my own Suicidal Tendency and thats not right! LoL Ideas I have been brainstorming are, Slaughter Pact, Smother and Contagion. Very good at what they do. Jitte + Contagion seems to be made for each other, but Im not sure yet. I have no other sugguestions at this time, other then I would like the see them work in the deck over Snuff Out because of the life loss not the card iteself. Aside, Maybe confidant needs to go?! Na, that would not make me feel Suicidal anymore:( No, really Confidant needs to get the axe?! Let me hear what others think about him in the deck.
Another idea, How about Unmask in the deck and/or sideboard? It seems like it was used at GP Columbus with great success. However, I feel it was used only to speed out a quick discard to stop Flash; the deck that sucked the fun out of Legacy!!!!!!!! Anyways just an idea I was thinking about adding somewhere to help with speed issues to stop certain problems and matches up. (Combo mainly and those pesky Survival decks) I would like to hear any feed back on that subject.
Deck changes:
-1 Jitte
-1 Bitterblossom
+2 Cabal Therapy (This number may go up im not sure yet!)
Anyways, thank you for taking the time to check out the deck and I hope i hear back from you. Ohhh please, please, please..... Don't Flame me :) LoL
Cheers,
Joe
Alright, alright... no flames. Though I should severely reprimand you for not agreeing with EVERY point I made. I am disappointed. *shakes head*
Unmask seemed like the easiest topic. Your evaluation of it is, I think, exactly what the legacy community has come to tacitly agree on. Unmask is good to beat insanely fast and resilient combo decks like flash, no other combo deck is quite as scary though. And back in the day when Hatred and shadow creatures were prominent, it was used to help push through turn 2 and turn 3 kills. Hatred is too much of a risk now and sui-black is no longer a combo deck but some weird variant of aggro-control. Unmask is out and probably not even worthy of sideboard unless you're seeing some very very heaving combo influence. Then I'd probably just maindeck more therapies anyways.
I can't really fault you on not cutting a Shade either. I think Bitterblossom and Jitte are probably the more solid cuts. Shade finds its way into every suicide build for a reason. What is there not to like about Shade?
I still recommend testing out Snuff Out. Start with it as a 3x main-decked. It's better in your opening hand than when drawn later on, as the alternate cost leads to some substantial tempo gains. I understand the concern over life loss. My current build of sui-black doesn't run bitterblossom or sarcomancy, so Snuff Out could likely be over the top. In retrospect you're probably right about leaving it out, but it's still worth a bit of testing to ascertain. Y'never know, you might end up satisfied with an alternate like Smother instead.
Finally: Wasteland...
I suppose it's almost like the 2 different camps on Dark Confidant. Does land destructino belong? Or doesn't it? There really isn't an easy solution. I still think Wasteland is a little weak. It can pull of some amazing early tempo, especially on a turn 2 play once you've accelerated out a a negator or hyppie on the back of a ritual. These plays seem to few to solely justify its inclusion. In my opinion, cracking a wasteland in the later turns to bury a non-basic doesn't really get you much as the opponents manabase is already stabilized. With only wasteland and without sinkhole I think it's really hard to consider it a good control element against weak mana-bases. Just seems to little to have much adverse effect against the opponent. On the other hand what price are you paying by running it? Well you lose 1-2 slots that could be devoted to business spells rather than land. But Wasteland is almost a business spell in itself. And you open yourself up to non-basic hate... which is a negligible concern at best. There is probably a very slight drop in consistency by lessening chances of dual swamps on your second turn. Quite honestly I think the differences are so miniscule that a conversation debating it probably isn't worth it 'til the deck is near as optimized as a Threshold or Goblins list. The inclusion of Dark Confidant is a much better topic for large scale changes to the structure of an entire suicide deck.
Alright - dinner time.
You CANNOT remove Dark Confidant, why would you even think about it?
Oh please. There are plenty of Sui Black decks without Confidant and they are perfectly justified with its exclusion. Sometimes this place gives me a headache from the constant facepalming.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Sockmonkey is right. (Atleast I say he's right, so that makes him right.) Confidant doesn't belong in every suicide deck. Look at the standard shells of Eva Green and Red Death (i.e. Suicide splash green and splash red). Even prior to Eva Green and Red Death, when Anwar was developing the list on the opening page, Suicide didn't run Confidant when it became available.
I think the principle that dictates whether or not to run confidant is the balance between tempo/aggro and control. The aforementioned decks wanted pure tempo, and a win by turn 5 or 6. Confidant isn't as good for meeting this end as other creatures. However, I think that the pilots of more modern builds of suicide black have realized that we can't outclass the tempo of splashes like Eva Green or Red Death. If tempo is truly what is desired then mono-b suicide is just sub par in comparison. So I think most of the modern builds are beginning to rely on more control elements and finding some modicum of success - especially given that our current meta is not dominated by weenie aggro that can overwhelm black based control. Confidant fits perfectly into these more controlling builds (I would argue Dusk Urchin could also find a home). I'd also speculate this is why HammafistRoob's build, with 7x dedicated spot removal spells and 13x creatures, is winning tournies. Suicide builds seldom are directed towards going hyper-aggro. Mono-b can't compete in that role, so it takes a different tact. It's weird aggro-control deck in a developing meta.
That's my 3 cents. Yes, "I" get three. :P