Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
What do you want the enchantment to do, make it possible for them to swing with and 0/4 then jack it's power up and Berserk it? The Isolation removes the creature as being a possible threat and a possible wall. But neither work on Progentius, and the only other creature that could possibly give Enchantress a bad time is Dreadnought. Most likely if they are playing that, they are playing Stifle, and they will also have counter magic and maybe bounce, which makes Lignify, poop. Doesn't say much for Isolation, but you can play it at insant speed, so it could catch them of guard.
Seriously?
You're saying the possibility of them powering up enough to lethal Berserk off of a 0/4 (assuming they have no better creatures) is a better trade-off than being able to knock off a Bob or a Meddling Mage?
Also, who cares if they gain a wall? When will that come up?
Lignify actually offers the functional equivalent of O. Ring for creatures, except that it's one less and primary color. That actually seems pretty good.
In an abstract sense, of course, Runed Halo and Moat are much better. The problem is the WW, which requires you retooling your mana base. Although the elimination of mana burn makes that slightly easier without taking burn.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Double white, 3 mana, and doesn't stop Bob or Meddling Mage. It seems strictly worse than O. Ring.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SpatulaOfTheAges
Seriously?
You're saying the possibility of them powering up enough to lethal Berserk off of a 0/4 (assuming they have no better creatures) is a better trade-off than being able to knock off a Bob or a Meddling Mage?
Also, who cares if they gain a wall? When will that come up?
Lignify actually offers the functional equivalent of O. Ring for creatures, except that it's one less and primary color. That actually seems pretty good.
In an abstract sense, of course, Runed Halo and Moat are much better. The problem is the WW, which requires you retooling your mana base. Although the elimination of mana burn makes that slightly easier without taking burn.
Exactly. I still very much doubt that it's worth running lignify over o.ring, but if you're specifically looking for an efficient creature-"removal", that's your best option imo.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
I don't know. I really like the fact that it's green, but that's probably because I run Gaea's Touch.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
I've been reading this thread for a while and now I have some results to post. This is my first post in Source and I hope I have somthing to add to your discussion. I've played Enchantress in 3 >20 players tournaments here in Finland. In the first tournament I didn't have Moat and I wasn't familiar with the deck. The last two I played with almost identical mainboard:
8 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephan Grass
4 Sterling Grove
3 Ground Seal
2 Wild Growth
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Moat
1 Runed Halo
1 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
1 Words of War
2 Replenish
1 Enlightened Tutor
My sideboard has had the same core:
2 COP: red
2 Choke
1 Blood Moon
1 Karmic Justice
1 Replenish
1 Runed Halo
1 Dovescape
My record with this deck is 9-1 and I've won both tournaments I've played with it.
Like some of you have said, O. Ring and Runed Halo are really good against decks with few threads. But because of Halo's WW I'm playing only one mb and one sb.
Ground Seal's cantrip is also very good and after playing 3 of them, I wouldn't play less. It also stops Landstill's recurring EE.
I'm also playing a one-off Tutor. It has been pretty good for me. Card disadvantage shouldn't be a problem if you get the needed Moat or Karmic Justice. If I need Replenish from sb I side it out.
My main problem has been the sideboard. In the last tournament I went 5-0, though I had a very bad sideboard. I won Canadian Thresh, Aggro Loam, Rg Sligh, 4c Countertop and Affinity. As you can see, I have only 9 cards which are auto-included in sb. I have tried City of Solitude, but I didn't like it. Humility was really good against affinity and if I had Moat out, but I don't like the fact it kills Argothian Enchantress. Against ANT I have nothing, but I think it is worthless to have something like chants. Isn't that autolose anyway?
My meta is very diverse. It includes Aggroloam, Zoo, Countertop decks, Merfolk, Goblin, Landstill, Dreadstill, Ichorid, ANT, Affinity, Canadian Thresh and almost every archtype. Survival and Stax seems to be the only "good" decks that are missing. The worst match-up for me seems to be Landstill.
Any ideas for sb? Sacred Ground doesn't seem good for my meta. Aggroloam is the only deck I might side it in.
Thanks for reading!
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tride
I've been reading this thread for a while and now I have some results to post. This is my first post in Source and I hope I have somthing to add to your discussion. I've played Enchantress in 3 >20 players tournaments here in Finland. In the first tournament I didn't have Moat and I wasn't familiar with the deck. The last two I played with almost identical mainboard:
8 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephan Grass
4 Sterling Grove
3 Ground Seal
2 Wild Growth
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Moat
1 Runed Halo
1 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
1 Words of War
2 Replenish
1 Enlightened Tutor
My sideboard has had the same core:
2 COP: red
2 Choke
1 Blood Moon
1 Karmic Justice
1 Replenish
1 Runed Halo
1 Dovescape
My record with this deck is 9-1 and I've won both tournaments I've played with it.
Like some of you have said, O. Ring and Runed Halo are really good against decks with few threads. But because of Halo's WW I'm playing only one mb and one sb.
Ground Seal's cantrip is also very good and after playing 3 of them, I wouldn't play less. It also stops Landstill's recurring EE.
I'm also playing a one-off Tutor. It has been pretty good for me. Card disadvantage shouldn't be a problem if you get the needed Moat or Karmic Justice. If I need Replenish from sb I side it out.
My main problem has been the sideboard. In the last tournament I went 5-0, though I had a very bad sideboard. I won Canadian Thresh, Aggro Loam, Rg Sligh, 4c Countertop and Affinity. As you can see, I have only 9 cards which are auto-included in sb. I have tried City of Solitude, but I didn't like it. Humility was really good against affinity and if I had Moat out, but I don't like the fact it kills Argothian Enchantress. Against ANT I have nothing, but I think it is worthless to have something like chants. Isn't that autolose anyway?
My meta is very diverse. It includes Aggroloam, Zoo, Countertop decks, Merfolk, Goblin, Landstill, Dreadstill, Ichorid, ANT, Affinity, Canadian Thresh and almost every archtype. Survival and Stax seems to be the only "good" decks that are missing. The worst match-up for me seems to be Landstill.
Any ideas for sb? Sacred Ground doesn't seem good for my meta. Aggroloam is the only deck I might side it in.
Thanks for reading!
You have runed halo vs ant and name Tendrils.
Also if you confinement early, they cant get you w/o bouncing things..
You're a dog to combo that goes off t1 anyway you look at it.
You can try to play gaddock teeg in the board vs those..
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Here you are, a "sub-primer" about a WGu list I thought of. It's giving me some satisfaction, so I decided to post it here. Comments/critics welcome.
1) A brief introduction
This Enchantress list has a WG core, with a U splash for a lock and several control elements. It doesn't subtract speed from the deck, which can pull out a win in 3-4 turns (via lock or Angel/Bear tokens swarm). It works well against Aggro and in a decent way against Aggro-Control and Combo.
2) The List
// Lands
3 [B] Tundra
4 [U] Savannah
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ST] Plains (4)
3 [US] Forest (3)
1 [ON] Island (2)
// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
// Spells
2 [US] Energy Field
2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 [LG] Moat
4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 [IN] Fertile Ground
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
1 [ON] Words of Wilding
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
2 [UD] Replenish
2 [VI] Elephant Grass
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
2 [SH] Sacred Ground
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 3 [IN] Mana Maze
SB: 2 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
3) The U Splash
There's U. And it's in there for two reasons mainly: WheelField (from now on WF) and In the Eye of Chaos (from now on IEC).
- First of all, the WF lock. Playing both cards (enchanting yourself with Wheel) means total protection against each kind of creature/burn spell. Thanks to Sterling Grove (shroud), Replenish (if they are both in GY) and O.Ring (vs opponents' O.Rings) you are able to protect this lock enough to find your wincons; not to mention the fact that some decks (like Goblins or Ichorid during game 1) may even scoop as soon as you land it.
WF's main weakness are, obviously, Pernicious Deed and EE @2 (and CotV @2). After a global removal you can go for Replenish, but if you gained enough tempo with that soft lock you can then proceed to win.
- IEC is an anti-Control weapon. When it hits the board, it'll be difficult for a Control player to counter your stuff (FoW costs 5 or 10, Daze 2 or 4, and so on...) and works usually against Burn too (slows it down a lot). Slows down combo too (AN costs 10, B mana rituals, Solidarity can basically bounce it or say GG...)-
4) The Sideboard
Both the maindeck and the sideboard are quite peculiar. But let's focus on the sideboard:
- IEC seems good to me. GreenOne, you said nothing 'bout it. What do you think of this card?
- Runed Halo is there for Combo.
- Karmic Justice... same as IEC.
- Mana Maze is a double-edged sword. But it stops any combo deck, while we can play 1-2-3 spells for each turn (if you can block Combo down, I doubt you have to care that much about time... until they found bounce spells). Totally experimental card. Works well against other mono-colored decks.
- Energy Flux: for Stax and other decks with plenty of artifacts.
- K.Grip: Classic removal.
Hope you liked it... Comments are welcome.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
@Bigface
Glad to see another italian poster. We're growing.
Here's some comments on your list.
The Manabase:
You're playing a grand total of 2 Basics with 6 fetchlands. This actually means you're going to get fucked hard by wasteland, Blood Moon and Stifle. A standard GW shell runs like 9-11 basics. It's a HUGE difference.
The Core:
The list you posted is nothing like a standard GW core with a U splash.
To have the standard core your deck is missing:
- at least 1 Confinament
- at least 2 Elephant grass
- Wild Growth or Exploration
Your deck packs some nombos worth mentioning:
Energy Field + 3 sterling grove, 6 fetchlands, 3 E.Tutor, 3 Replenish, 1 Elephant Grass, 1 Confinament (+ SB 3 seals, 4 stifle..). This means that if you don't have a Wheel, to keep Energy Field in play you're not going to play 17 of your cards, not counting Discard spells, Wastelands, Counters, Deeds and other things your opponent might do.
Wheel of Sun and Moon + Replenish. What's the deal in having an empty graveyard, and seeing it coming back to play? Also, you might want to see this. When Wheel enchanting you is destroyed the replacement effect still takes place. if you have a WF combo going and your opponent EE for 2, neither of the pieces are going in the grave, but on bottom of your deck.
Enchantress + 3 E.Tutor + 3 Replenish. Reducing the mumber of enchantments in the deck reduces your draws. As Goblins wants to maximize the number of goblin cards in the deck for ringleader, the same has to be done in enchantress.
8 enchant lands + 2 basics. Opponent's wasteland is going to 2 for 1 most of the time.
Other considerations:
- Stifle: believe me, it doesn't work against non-belcher combo, especially against other storm decks (ANT, Doomsday, TES).
- Your deck is decent against combo. Please, don't lie yourself. I bet I can 60/40 you (more probably 70/30) with TES any day of the week. It's not your fault, it's the way enchantress works.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Yay for italian players!
Anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
The Manabase:
You're playing a grand total of 2 Basics with 6 fetchlands. This actually means you're going to get fucked hard by wasteland, Blood Moon and Stifle. A standard GW shell runs like 9-11 basics. It's a HUGE difference.
Well, that's a problem. i'm trying now a fetchless manabase with more basics, upping basic lands count to 7. Something like this:
// Lands
3 [B] Tundra
4 [U] Savannah
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ST] Plains (4)
3 [US] Forest (3)
1 [ON] Island (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
Energy Field + 3 sterling grove, 3 E.Tutor, 2 Replenish, 1 Elephant Grass, 1 Confinament (+ SB 3 seals, 4 stifle..). This means that if you don't have a Wheel, to keep Energy Field in play you're not going to play 10 of your cards, not counting Discard spells, Wastelands, Counters, Deeds and other things your opponent might do.
Edited for fetch removal and -1 Replenish. The point is, Energy Field is not the main wincon, it's an additional lock put in there to hold back decks like Goblins and other Aggro stuff. Even without Wheel, you may gain enough time to turn the tables. Also, you have the Enchantress draw engine (which works well) and tutors. I learned through testing that's better to go search for one of the pieces of the lock and then play them during the same turn (usally Wheel first). So the tutor problem isn't as relevant as you might think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
Wheel of Sun and Moon + Replenish. What's the deal in having an empty graveyard, and seeing it coming back to play? Also, you might want to see
this. When Wheel enchanting you is destroyed the replacement effect still takes place. if you have a WF combo going and your opponent EE for 2, neither of the pieces are going in the grave, but on bottom of your deck.
That's called brainfart. I hadn't understood if it was like you say or not. Anyway, Wheel can be used for other stuff: enchanting the other player, stops Ichorid from winning and 42lands.dec/Aggro Loam/ITF/(anything with Crucible and Waste) from recurring stuff. Sure, they go to bottom of library. But LftL isn't that great in this prospective, isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
Enchantress + 3 E.Tutor + 2 Replenish. Reducing the mumber of enchantments in the deck reduces your draws. As Goblins wants to maximize the number of goblin cards in the deck for ringleader, the same has to be done in enchantress.
Edited for -1 Replenish in list. Tons of Enchantress lists doesn't play Enlightened Tutors, and if they play it they play 1x or 2x. Inserting a lock requires more tutors. Anyway, cutting 1 Replenish (3 are too many) the list has a total of 29 non-enchantment spells, meaning half of the deck is made of enchantments. I think that's enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
8 enchant lands + 2 basics. Opponent's wasteland is going to 2 for 1 most of the time.
List modded for more basicness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
Other considerations:
- Stifle: believe me, it doesn't work against non-belcher combo, especially against other storm decks (ANT, Doomsday, TES).
- Your deck is decent against combo. Please, don't lie yourself. I bet I can 60/40 you (more probably 70/30) with TES any day of the week. It's not your fault, it's the way enchantress works.
The Stifle question... I have to be honest, I had no idea how to fill that 4 empty spaces. Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law would help against Combo, but it's a double-edged sword.
As for the Combo MU: yea, that's what I meant. Perhaps "decent" is the wrong expression. "Not desperate, but you have an high chance of losing" sounds better.
Time for a sideboard change!
SB: 3 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 3 [IN] Mana Maze
SB: 2 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
- IEC seems good to me. GreenOne, you said nothing 'bout it. What do you think of this card?
- Runed Halo is there for Combo.
- Karmic Justice... same as IEC.
- Mana Maze is a double-edged sword. But it stops any combo deck, while we can play 1-2-3 spells for each turn (if you can block Combo down, I doubt you have to care that much about time... until they found bounce spells). Totally experimental card. Works well against other mono-colored decks.
- Energy Flux: for Stax and other decks with plenty of artifacts.
- K.Grip: Classic removal.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bigface
SB: 3 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 3 [IN] Mana Maze
SB: 2 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
- IEC seems good to me. GreenOne, you said nothing 'bout it. What do you think of this card?
- Runed Halo is there for Combo.
- Karmic Justice... same as IEC.
- Mana Maze is a double-edged sword. But it stops any combo deck, while we can play 1-2-3 spells for each turn (if you can block Combo down, I doubt you have to care that much about time... until they found bounce spells). Totally experimental card. Works well against other mono-colored decks.
- Energy Flux: for Stax and other decks with plenty of artifacts.
- K.Grip: Classic removal.
In the Eye of Chaos is one of the few reasons to run blue at all :smile:
Aura of Silence covers both the Energy Flux and Krosan Grip slots in your SB, being really good against stax, slowing them down to death and acting as removal for counterbalance too, that is the reason to run Krosan Grip. Replenish recurs it too.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
To be honest, never seen In the Eye of chaos before, and I really like it. But it seems to me like a Sibeboard card rather than a main-decker. It seems like a hell of a surprise for blue decks and even ANT.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
In the Eye of Chaos is actually quite the only reason to run blue, imo.
We've had this blue or red splash debate going on for pretty long some time ago and concluded red the superior splash color, but there are still some blue splash advocates out there -.-
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.AgOn
In the Eye of Chaos is actually quite the only reason to run blue, imo.
Why splash blue for that when you can just play City of Solitude which does virtually the same but doesn't require a color splash, and also keep's them from activating SDT in your turn so you only need to worry about the random counters from counterballance...
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
overseer1234
Why splash blue for that when you can just play City of Solitude which does virtually the same but doesn't require a color splash, and also keep's them from activating SDT in your turn so you only need to worry about the random counters from counterballance...
Cause it also works against combo, and draw spells like FoF.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.AgOn
In the Eye of Chaos is actually quite the only reason to run blue, imo.
We've had this blue or red splash debate going on for pretty long some time ago and concluded red the superior splash color, but there are still some blue splash advocates out there -.-
Anything wrong with it?
Anyway, IEC is strong. It works against most of Combo decks (Solitarity can't win unless it finds a bounce spell, AN costs 10, mana rituals too), Control elements (FoW suddendly isn't that good, Daze costs min. 2, Tempest of Light and similar stuff costs 6) and Burn (a good half of its spells are istants).
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
So, I've been looking at building just a GW version of enchantress, and I was wondering how much weaker it becomes without fetches, savannahs, or a moat (I'm cheap, yeah). It's not for a hyper-competitive environment, but I'm just wondering how much more inconsistent it would become.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quick list:
// Lands
6 [ST] Plains (4)
4 [5E] Brushland
6 [US] Forest (3)
4 [TSP] Terramorphic Expanse
// Creatures
2 [PLC] Mesa Enchantress
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
// Spells
3 [VI] Elephant Grass
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
2 [UD] Replenish
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 [ON] Words of Wilding
4 [8E] Fertile Ground
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
4 [R] Wild Growth
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
Here you are, sir.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
With a deck running (4 x Wild Growth) isn't it easier to cast Verduran Enchantress than Mesa Enchantress?
Do you really need 10 Enchantress effects? What makes GW want more than GWr? With most decks running creature-removal the two targetable enchantresses will most likely die, or so I'd think. I haven't actually playtested that.
Also, Valtrix, why not run GWr? If you play Utopia Sprawl and/or Fertile Ground (or possibly Trace of Abundance, although that's harder to cast) getting the one red mana for Words of War isn't very hard at all.
Re: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
So, I've been looking at building just a GW version of enchantress, and I was wondering how much weaker it becomes without fetches, savannahs, or a moat (I'm cheap, yeah). It's not for a hyper-competitive environment, but I'm just wondering how much more inconsistent it would become.
After lurking for sometime, I think it is time for me to respond to this. I am also working on a budget enchantress (without the expensive fetches, dual lands and moat). So far it is great! I didn't even feel the lack of moat as enchantress always have Solitary Confinement and Elephant Grass to fall back on. Instead of the usual fetches, I used Naya Panorama which is amazing on it self as it does not come into play tapped. My land base is literally quite basic except for Serra's Sanctum and Naya Panorama.
Poor Man's Land Base (20):
10 Forest
3 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Naya Panorama
Draw (8):
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
Sorcery (2):
2 Replenish
Enchantments:
(Mana Acceleration - 9)
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Wild Growth
2 Exploration (Can be replaced with Gaea's Touch)
(Toolbox - 12)
4 Elephant Grass
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
3 Ground Seal
1 Karmic Justice
1 Runed Halo/Oblivion Ring
(Protection - 7)
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
(Win Condition - 2)
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War
Sideboard (15):
1 Circle of Protection: Red/Aegis of Honor
1 Replenish
1 Runed Halo
3 Choke
1 City of Solitude
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Karmic Justice
2 Aura of Silence
2 Sacred Ground
It will be nice if someone can critique my deck. I don't think it will lack the power without those expensive cards.
