[Deck] Belcher

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

Now this thread seems a bit alive :smile:


@Anen:

I was thinking about using Welder more in a "countered-Belcher-backup-plan" way...

Still, as John Cox pointed, the meta is full of removal, and I think I'm following his conclusion that we should "doubt goblin welder would last till it lost summoning sickness"... :frown:


@Jonh Cox

Because of the U-decks running around, how do you think one should evaluete his initial hand playing in a tournament, in order to have a "safe start" against an unknow deck?


@Beatusnox

What would you mean by "mulligan aggresivey enough" ? (To have a win-con and the mana to activate it?)


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about Serum Powder...

I heard about it, but someone pointed that it makes our initial hands more dificult to evaluate. Since I don't have much experience with the deck, I think I'll start without it and see how it goes.


about playing nowadays...

It was nice to read about jan64's experience at GP Amsterdam, for since I hadn't heard a word about Belcher playing in recent tournaments, I was wondering if this deck was indeed "playable" anymore (there are some people on my meta that have already gave up on it) :rolleyes:


about deckbuilding...

I'm building a RG version with 11 win-con MD (4 Belcher, 4 Burning Wish, 3 ETW), 4 Chrome Mox, and planning on the following SB:


1 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Diminishing Returns

However, I have doubts on how to use Diminishing Returns properly.

I am, too, a bit hesitanting on this configuration of the SB. Do you have suggestions of upgrades on it?


P.S.: Why to use Ingot Chewer over Shattering Spree? (Or why to split between them?) Spree seems superior to me because of the Replicate ability. Would Chewer frequently see play as a permanent creature?

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With Diminishing Returns, how can you properly cast it?

Also, as a Belcher beginner/novice, I was wondering how to 'properly use' Burning Wish

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Originally Posted by 2sided3angle

With Diminishing Returns, how can you properly cast it?

Also, as a Belcher beginner/novice, I was wondering how to 'properly use' Burning Wish

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I really dislike returns, I usually go for goblins with wish. This is really a safer move in the current meta for game ones because your not giving your opponent a second chance at Mulliganing into a force. Game two and three if your opponent mulligans a lot you probably are going to be up against a force or mindbreak trap, so returns isn't going to resolve if you don't have a pyroblast. My recommendation for postboard against blue is to mulligan into empty the warrens then draw the hand that has your acceleration. This really guarantees that you'll have a storm win. If they counter some of your rituals you'll just get more storm.

Also on the number of goblins, unless your playing against storm or some aggro light (intuition elves probably falls into this category) deck you need at least 12 goblins turn 1 and 16 turn 2-3 to guarantee a win.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

This is not reality. SI has always been the fastest deck in the format. It has a far higher turn 1 win percentage even than Serum Powder belcher lists. This is because the deck only needs 3 cards to go off. Further, Belcher lists tend to empty their entire hand into one play while SI only uses part of its hand to go off, meaning that if the opponent DOES have FoW, then you aren't completely blown out.
Further, SI mulligans better than any other deck in the format for this same reason.

Just wanted to clear that up.

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Oook, let's say that after SI, Belcher has the most explosives T1 hands.
A testing note: How good is Gitaxian Probe in this deck. It provides us unvaluable infrmation to shape our game plan.

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

P.S.: Why to use Ingot Chewer over Shattering Spree? (Or why to split between them?) Spree seems superior to me because of the Replicate ability. Would Chewer frequently see play as a permanent creature?

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Ingot chewer has been considered due to you can evoke it thought chalice with just (R). Almost never it sees play as "permanent creature".

@ Beatusnox:

Ok, understood. :smile:



@ 2sided3angle:


If by "how can you properly cast it" you're asking about mana production necessary for it, the answer is Manamorphose.

But if you were asking about "tech mastering", then I think Final Fortune answered it (I had a doubt on it to) - although, as John Cox pointed, it can be risky or ineffective against blue decks. :smile:



@ John Cox:

By stating that it would be required a greater number of goblins (i.e., 12 instead of 10) from storm count, I assume that this would be for preventing some random blocks that could obstruct you from winning (or could gain the opponent a little more turns, what could get the same result), is that right?

But if you had an initial hand that could go only for 10 goblins, would you not keep it?




@ Vacrix:

Never heard of anyone using Recross the Paths, but as a first thought it doesn't appear to be superior to Land Grant, if the plan would be to substitue it.



@ GoldenCid:

Hmmm, thanks. I did not think that Chewer could be a resource to avoid Chalices... :smile:

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

@ Vacrix:

Never heard of anyone using Recross the Paths, but as a first thought it doesn't appear to be superior to Land Grant, if the plan would be to substitue it.

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I haven't heard anything about Recross the Paths either, but it looks like it could be interesting if you had any way to draw cards in this deck, since you actually get to stack your deck if you cast this spell with no land in your library.

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Originally Posted by John Cox

I really dislike returns, I usually go for goblins with wish. This is really a safer move in the current meta for game ones because your not giving your opponent a second chance at Mulliganing into a force. Game two and three if your opponent mulligans a lot you probably are going to be up against a force or mindbreak trap, so returns isn't going to resolve if you don't have a pyroblast. My recommendation for postboard against blue is to mulligan into empty the warrens then draw the hand that has your acceleration.

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Agree both on Returns and Mulliganing to ETW. Seems in the meta, you are almost dependant on a ETW hand rather than Belching.

Would it be almost better to run 4 MD ETW and 3 Charbelchers?

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Originally Posted by 2sided3angle

Agree both on Returns and Mulliganing to ETW. Seems in the meta, you are almost dependant on a ETW hand rather than Belching.

Would it be almost better to run 4 MD ETW and 3 Charbelchers?

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Without the Sideboard Empty The Warrens, Burning Wish is not a win condition.

I haven't played much Belcher, but I was under the impression that Diminishing Returns is solely for the Storm matchup, where Empty The Warrens can easily be outraced.

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Originally Posted by 2sided3angle

Agree both on Returns and Mulliganing to ETW. Seems in the meta, you are almost dependant on a ETW hand rather than Belching.

Would it be almost better to run 4 MD ETW and 3 Charbelchers?

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The list that took gencon by storm a year or two back (came first or second) had 4 Empty, and 4 Belchers, with cantrips main in place of the Burning wishes. Burning wish is by no means holy.

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Originally Posted by andrebonotto

@ John Cox:

By stating that it would be required a greater number of goblins (i.e., 12 instead of 10) from storm count, I assume that this would be for preventing some random blocks that could obstruct you from winning (or could gain the opponent a little more turns, what could get the same result), is that right?

But if you had an initial hand that could go only for 10 goblins, would you not keep it?

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That really depends on what the hand needs to be able to make more goblins. Ten is a bad number because of the combat math. If they went first and played a nacatl, then they get the chance to have two creatures out when I attack the first time. I'll deal 8 damage and have 8 goblins left, the next turn they could play a goyf + another creature or burn spell and I'll swing with 3-4 less goblins, doing 4-5 damage total. The next swing may even not connect.
Twelve is a safe number because adding the medium case scenario up, I'll do exactly 20 damage against zoo/goblins/sligh/whatever.
If the hand just needs a burning wish to put out double warrens, or a drawing a mana source would let me cast a cantrip instead of imprinting it on chrome mox, I'll probably wait a turn and go for 16 goblins on turn 2-3. If its my first seven and it can only produce 10 goblins, I would defiantly mull(The exception being I'm playing against blue and the hand has a pyroblast in it). The weird thing is a blue opponent isn't going to have 3 creatures out on turn 2 or 3 so 10 goblins is fine there, but against an aggro deck 10 isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by Namida

Without the Sideboard Empty The Warrens, Burning Wish is not a win condition.

I haven't played much Belcher, but I was under the impression that Diminishing Returns is solely for the Storm matchup, where Empty The Warrens can easily be outraced.

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Not only the Storm match, just for when you can be outraced. Even then I still prefer Goblins in those situations(not as much as belcher but I more than returns), Diminishing returns can be very random at getting you what you need and help your opponent.

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Originally Posted by Namida

I haven't heard anything about Recross the Paths either, but it looks like it could be interesting if you had any way to draw cards in this deck, since you actually get to stack your deck if you cast this spell with no land in your library.

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Especially with access to now 12 cyclers (now including Gitixian Probe). You could even play Summoner's Pacts instead of Land Grants and still have 20 IMS. All you need is 6 mana, Recross the Paths, and a cycler to win. Imagine stacking the deck like:

Manamorphose into 2U:
Meditate --> LED, LED, LED, Gitixian Probe
Play out LED x3, Probe, break LED's in response --> Belcher, play and activate. Getting to 6 isn't that hard for Belcher.

Recross the Paths is to slow. The point of Land Grant is that it is free and it nets mana. So +1 storm and +1 mana. It is dead in multipules, it makes a good Chrome Mox target.

I have been running Serum Powder in my list for about 2 yeards now and love it. It makes mulligan choices really easy although they were not very hard to begin with. I would run no more than 3 because it is a dead draw on any turn.

@Varix: I remember trying out Recross earlier in this thread. Never tested it properly since Belcher isn't a fun deck to play at the end of the day (also: nightmare to play on MWS).

Link

There's actually a lot more nifty things you can do with recross than you've stated thus far; for an instance you have an excellent chance of getting the Recross back after playing it for Taiga, meaning that you can conceivably go off without Land Grant with an additional 2 mana (and having access to Land Grant is probably more important than the extra Recross kills anyhow). Also you only need 2 cyclers or 1 cycler and 3 mana to go off immediatly after Recross (since 1 cycler can be substituted for LED at will), and you can stack these on top of the deck to win 1/2 turns irregardless.

EDIT: Come think of it, one should probably add Tendrils to the SB since BW -> Tendrils is only 6 mana as opposed to Belcher -> Activate's 7. Gives some more leeway in the more convoluted piles.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Especially with access to now 12 cyclers (now including Gitixian Probe). You could even play Summoner's Pacts instead of Land Grants and still have 20 IMS. All you need is 6 mana, Recross the Paths, and a cycler to win. Imagine stacking the deck like:

Manamorphose into 2U:
Meditate --> LED, LED, LED, Gitixian Probe
Play out LED x3, Probe, break LED's in response --> Belcher, play and activate. Getting to 6 isn't that hard for Belcher.

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I m sure that you are "well intentioned" but at first glance it is unhealthy to run so many cmc 3 cards, maybe if you share a list it would be possible to clarify this point.

Recross the Paths shouldn't EVER be compared with Land Grant. Land Grant is effectively a 0cc IMS while Recross the Paths is a 3cc business spell. In regards to cutting Land Grant, that was a different point entirely, opting to replace Land Grant with Summoner's Pact, which is a 0cc IMS that is effectively Pact --> ESG --> G. I don't know if that is good or not, I'm going to my local store on friday to pick up the pieces to test this out, but the idea is that if you can cut Land Grants and the Taiga, then you still have 20 IMS's and thats enough to get the combo started because you will see one every 3 cards or so.

Recross the Paths, was suggested by Infinitum on page 41. Honestly I think this is what Belcher ought to evolve into anyway because its been a HUR-DURR deck for far too long.

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

Still no love for Recross the Paths people? With 3 Mana available and Taiga on the table it's a strictly better Doomsday. Without the Taiga it's effectively a 3cc sorcery that finds that Taiga and then has an above-average chance of clashing itself right back into your hand, and with an extra 2 mana investment you get to tap that Taiga and replay it on the spot.

Anyway since my last input didn't really spark any discussion I'm going to go ahead and post a mini-primer instead. It's at least worth the consideration Imo.

// Lands
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [MOR] Recross the Paths
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
3 [9E] Seething Song

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Recross the Paths
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [6E] Infernal Contract
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MM] Crash
SB: 1 [MM] Thunderclap
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

Mini-Q&A
Q: What does Recross the Paths do?
A: It reveals cards off the top of your library until it hits a land card and then puts the revealed cards back in any order at the bottom of it, meaning that if you don't have any lands left in it you get to stack it from the bottom up.
Q: Doesn't that make it useless unless you also draw the Taiga/Land Grant?
A: It makes it worse, but not entirely useless. You can still play it to find the aforementioned Taiga, and with any luck you'll also win the clash meaning that you get your investment back. Remember that with the Taiga you only need another 2 mana to replay it the same turn..
Q: How fast do you win after stacking your deck?
A: Depends on how many cantrips and/or Mana floating you've got left after Recrossing. With 3 mana and a cantrip OR 2 cantrips (and 2 mana for Manamorphose should you not have 2 Wraiths) on hand you can win the same turn you Recross. With one Cantrip OR the means of producing 3 mana you'll win the next turn. If you have an empty hand you'll need to spend 2 turns drawing into Mana as well as the Meditate to initiate the piles; preferrably by topdecking a LED and a Street Wraith - which is still as fast as EtW in the vast majority of all situations.
Q: Isn't EtW better versus blue-based decks?
A: Nah. They can still counter your mana sources to prevent you from reaching 4 Mana (especially if you had to use Land Grant and they see it coming), and 12+ Goblins isn't a guaranteed win by a long shot since there isn't a deck out there that won't be able to deal with them at least postside.

Generic Piles:

Kill Pile (as ordered from top through bottom):
*Street Wraith (for Clashing if you wanna get the Recross back for Imprinting Chrome Mox)
*Setup (Whatever is still needed to cast Meditate ASAP - see the Mini-FAQ)
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal (If you have a surplus mana you can substitute this for Thunderclap/Crash/Reverent Silence to remove inconvenient permanents game 2)
Street Wraith
Goblin Charbelcher

Do your preparations. Cast Meditate to draw into the LED's and Wraith. Cycle the Wraith whilst cracking the LED's in response and end up with Charbelcher in hand and 7-9 mana in pool. Win.

Slightly more convoluted kill that can also deal with whatever hate they managed Pile:
*Street Wraith
*Setup
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Street Wraith
Burning Wish
LED
Seething Song
Burning Wish
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

Cast Meditate. Draw cards, cycle wraith whilst cracking the LEDs' for RRRRRRBBB, draw Wish and cast it for Infernal Contract. Cast infernal Contract with RRRR in pool for the next set of cards. Cast Seething Song and Burning Wish for your hatecard of choice. Remove what keeps you from winning, then cycle Street Wraith whilst cracking LED for Charbelcher. This one might take a lot of tweaking in order to fit the gamestate and is more of a general guideline than a step-for-step walkthrough (it assumes you still have all 4 LEDs remaining, for an instance).

Preside removing artifacts or creatures requires you to either have an extra mana in the pool whilst casting Meditate in order to compensate for the mana used by Spree/Lightning - this is why Thunder Clap/Crash is in the sideboard. If you don't have the extra mana don't forget that you can also substitute the last LED for a Lotus Petal and instead draw into it the next turn to fire off the Charbelcher.

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In the near future, I'll be testing that list with these changes:
-4 Street Wraith
-4 Land Grant
-1 Taiga
+4 Summoner's Pact
+4 Gitixian Probe
+1 Wild Cantor

I'm hoping that 20 IMS is enough. I really want to play a landless list because it makes Recross the Paths that much better. Doomsday in green makes me pretty excited.

Now, I've been thinking we might run into a play like:

Hand:
Elvish Spirit Guide, Summoner's Pact, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Manamorphose, Recross the Paths

This would be a pass the turn pile, likely 2nd turn win if we weren't running Ideas Unbound:

Turn 1:
SSG, ESG, Pact-->ESG, [RGG], Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual [RRRGG], Recross the Paths [RR]

Library:
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Probe
Meditate
Seething Song
Seething Song
LED
Charbelcher

Manamorphose --> UU, draw Ideas Unbound, play it, draw LED x2, Probe, play LED x2, play Probe, break LED x2 in response for UUURRR, drawing Meditate, play Meditate with RRR floating, draw Seething Song, x2, LED, and Charbelcher, play Seething Song x2 for RRRRRRRRR, play LED, play Charbelcher, and activate for the kill

In short, we might want to include Ideas Unbound for Recross piles.

Actually, you don't need to run Meditate main if you run Ideas Unbound - consider this pile:

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Ideas Unbound
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LED
LED
Probe
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Cantrip
Cantrip
Cantrip
Cantrip
Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony

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Or more convoluted:

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Ideas Unbound
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LED
LED
Probe
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Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract
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LED
LED
(Blank - You have an extra mana to work with here postside should you need to remove whatever)
Probe
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Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony

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Meditate piles do have the luxury of playing an extra Seething Song however, which together with having surplus mana directly after the Infernal Contract means that they can play a second Burning Wish for Reverent Silence (Chain Lightning/Shattering Spree/Duress should you start with a surplus mana in the pool) should they need to.
More importantly Meditate is actually playable by itself once in a blue moon, completely circumvents Ethersworn Canonist and doesn't require you to pay 8+ life when going off. Since either one can be paid for by cracking a LED in response to RtP (or by drawing into LED naturally should you cast RtP with 2 cantrips on hand) it's a tossup which one is better imo.

Oh, and @that list: I'd strongly consider running the full 12 free cantrips even if it meant going down to 10 win conditions (4xBelcher 4xRtP 2xBW). The 3 RtP in that list is a throwback to the fact that it is more of a liability prior to getting the Taiga, but with no lands you cannot really afford the pass turn piles imo (especially as you run Pact).

I'd say that with 4 Gitixian Probe and 4 Manamorphose, you might even be able to play Meditate/Ideas Unbound if its in your opener simply because you have 4 maindeck color fixers and 4 blue cards to imprint on Chrome Mox.

Also, via Summoner's Pact --> Wild Cantor is another method of getting U.

I like the Ideas Unbound piles. UU is easy when you can just put Manamorphose on top. The question now is Meditate vs. Ideas Unbound, or run both?

Well... you can't use Pact in hands when you are passing the turn. Then again, you won't always have Pact. Its doesn't function the same way it does in Pact SI, a draw dependent deck. In Belcher, you are merely judging your opening 7 to see if it can win that turn. Unfortunately you can't use Pacts on the turn you go off or you wind up shuffling away the pile.

I'm not sure that you want 12 cyclers. Street Wraith can't even be used in your Cantrip, Cantrip, Cantrip, etc. pile because it doesn't count as a spell. Also, its much harder to tell whether or not you can keep your opening hand if its full of cyclers. Imagine you have a hand of 5 cyclers, ESG, SSG. Do you keep this? Its hard to tell what will come of it.

It's not as much the double U as the fact that there are very few situations in which you'd want to cast Ideas outside of Recross. At least Meditate is a semi-decent topdeck if your first attempt got countered somehow.

Having a lot of cantrips in a starting hand is somewhat forgiving in this deck since we only really play mana and win conditions, and having access to them is crucial to make RtP work - remember that you can play Paths without any mana floating whatsoever as long as you have at least 2 free cantrips to enable LED for you.

I think that this is a good idea for a new version of the deck.
But...
advantages:
You are not playing land grant 2-3-4+taiga, so you will not reveal any kind of land/hand anymore. Your chrome moxes will have new targets in additionals Recross the paths.
You become fully led-dependant. The deck can abuse this card very well

disadvantages of the "cantripfull":
mulliganing issues(swraith ver): if you keep a hand full of cantrips, you cannot know what you're going to draw with those. Manamorphose/Gitaxian are already "problems" the same way.
You become fully pithing-needle-able. Like the old "2lands belcher" a needle is a kind of a pain in the "back".
You don't get maindeck anti-hate: no burning wish.

"disadvantages of the hybrid":
You become fully led-dependant. You might not be able to set up a good pile with the cards you are left in the deck with.
I don't think we can build a list with recross the paths without at least 10-12 cantrips, or you cannot draw into your win till the turn after casting it.
Summoner's pact is a good card. But only if you are going to win via-belcher, of course. I guess you can only play summoner with a list fully imprinted on winning this way.

p.s. a mono-ideas unbound i think it is necessary on these builds, but it is another dead card in the starting hand(kind of) and it is off-color(sometimes i have trouble casting my xantid swarm/tinder wall in classic lists...)

my 2 cents

Anyhow, here's the list that I'll test out for the time being. The exact ratio of Recross to Wish maindecked is of course debatable. We shall see.

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elven Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Recross the Paths
2 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chain Lightning
1 Cabal Therapy
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1 Meditate
2 Seething Song
1 Infernal Contract
1 Burning Wish

The second half of the SB looks weird, but essentially allows me to board in Meditate>Ideas, BW>Recross and Songs>Rituals and utilize more specialized piles versus whatever hate they brought in.

I really think Recross will be most effective if you are playing with something that allows you to get rid of Land Grant. If not Summoner's Pact then perhaps Mox Opal?


If you still want to play Land Grant, them maybe try playing Summoner's Pact alongside it with Dryad Arbor and Culling the Weak, much like PSI does. That would at the very least allow for the Recross piles to work because you would then have 8 ways to fetch out your land rather than just 4.

I have a feeling that most of the time Recross is in your hand without Land Grant its going to be a psuedo-busines spell rather than a surefire kill. Finding a way to configure a landless list or list with LG + Pact is going to set Recross over the top. Either way though, I look forward to reading about its progress. I'm going to be testing a list myself in an Pact SI variant and we can compare notes.

Can you break Lion's Eye Diamond for mana, and then use the mana to cast a spell before discarding your hand?

i.e break LED to cast Cruel Bargain or Infernal Contract from your hand.