Show and Tell is lamb?
Printable View
Show and Tell is lamb?
Why do I get the impression that the posters in this thread don't like playing Legacy?
*hidden*
...sshhhh...stop talking about the new *hidden* list. We need it to stay under the radar. At least until GP Ghent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
you are right! I won't do it again. See you at GP Ghent in the finals!
Looks like someone forgot the first rule of Fight Club.
Seriously though, I think in a format where the card pool is as broad as Legacy's things will eventually shake out and people will adapt to Show and Tell.
I'm pretty sure RUG was Top 8'ng frequently before Griselbrand and this whole Show and Tell mania started. Show and Tell getting banned doesn't suddenly make RUG a bad deck, nor does it change the fact that it's still going to put players in the Top 8. I have no idea where you whiners get this stuff.
All I'm getting out of this conversation is that the Maverick players who were happy dominating tournaments worse than Flash did (7 out of 8 Maverick in Top 8, really?), are upset and butthurt now that they finally found a bad matchup, which still isn't an autoloss.
This topic is starting to get old. They need to unban Oath of Druids already, so you guys can whine about something else. At least with Oath, you have a legitimate reason to whine.
If flash was legal during the Starcitygames tourney's, then you would have gotten to see a top eight of different flash decks. Flash wasn't really legal long enough to dominate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
The problem is that the people who like Show & Tell type decks--decks that are "unfair" or revolve around just one card resolving to win--are the same ones who are calling others whiners. They want to win, and they really don't care how they do it. They don't care that a dozen other archetypes just got squelched. Adapt, they say! It's very spike of them. I guess it's just a philosophical difference.
And how many decks did RUG and Maverick kill?Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
All this complaining about Show & Tell right now just seems like Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling. Wait until it puts up dominating numbers before starting to complain, IMO.
I think you misinterpreted my point joemauer. I wasn't saying Flash wouldn't dominate Top 8's if it wouldn't have been banhammered immediately after the GP. I'm simply stating that Flash didn't put 7 out of 8 players into a Top 8 like Maverick did. No one was banhammer crying about that, so why all the crying about a deck that has yet to do anything close to dominating?
Oh, and FYI StarScream, I don't play Show and Tell. I've never played with it, actually. But I have beaten it a lot. Then again, I'm good at adapting and metagaming. I am the 1% I guess.
Hanni: it is simply the psychology. It's a combo deck. People really don't like losing to combo decks or feeling like combo decks are gaining an increased market share. It's fine that they exist, but they're not supposed to be dominant. Maverick and RUG are fine by most peoples' standards because they're "fair" decks. You at least get to feel like you're playing the game while you lose to them.
I completely agree, I personally lost all my pet decks do to RUG and Mav. I think SnT is the perfect addition to this meta right now, and its in no way dominating anything.
So you're saying that you are better than 99% of other magic players? Or are you saying that only 1% of legacy decks can beat SNT? Either way you're kind of solidifying the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Are you playing that u/w entreat the angels deck?
Show and Tell is no more broken then many other combo decks in the format. Give the meta a chance to adapt to the deck. Everything will be ok.
I've designed, and play with, a lot of decks. Yes, UW Control happens to be one of them. Blue Sligh is another one of my favorites, as is The Mind Harvester (BUG Contgrol). Puresteel Affinity is another fun deck of mine, which does happen to have a fairly bad SNT matchup. UWb Esperblade is another fun one I enjoy. I mean really, I could go on and on. My point is that I don't play SNT, and I'm calling the "BAN SNT!" crowd whiners.
SnT is by now means the problem. SnT has no maindeck answers to stuff like Humility or even something stupid like Peacekeeper. Decks just have to adapt. The true problem card with the deck is, like always, Brainstorm. It makes the deck consistent enough because it trades multiple copies of one combo piece for fresh cards. If you take Brainstorm away, the deck will fall to its own draws often enough to make it fair. Pretty much like RUG Delver. They won't become bad decks, but it is really that one cards that makes them blatantly unfair.
Well that's not very nice :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I think the 99% joke went over your head.
Although, if you count all magic players, including casual and standard players, I probably am better at Legacy deckbuilding than 99% of the playerbase.
Since you missed the wallstreet joke though, I'm saying that most of the netdeck whiners (not saying that's what you are because I don't know you) suck horribly at adapting and metagaming.
No. Delver is the problemQuote:
Originally Posted by Tao
No it's the Tarmogoyf!!!! He is just too strong for 2 mana!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
No, I got your joke that hasn't been relevant in about 7 months. I was mainly trolling you, I suppose. I can't change your mind and you won't change my mind, so I'm pretty much done with the argument. I feel it's too strong and you don't. But kudos to you on adapting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
No, pretty sure it's the Delver. I mean, 60% match ups across the field. Clearly that is fine with everyone because the deck is "fair" or whatever that word means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
No it might be the Nimble Mongoose? He's overpowered. A 3/3 for G and he can't even be targeted at!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Exactly, that's why I started a "How to adjust to Sneak&Show decks" thread recently. Sometimes when innovation is low and some decks are forgotten the format can get into a cul-de-sac. I think there are decks which were not strong a couple months back but can come out of hiding with the current metagame. I'm still expecting the White Stax players with their Chalices and Humilites to come out of hiding and start punishing those RUG and Sneak&Show players (since I don't own the cards to do it myself :rolleyes:) but I believe if the discussion is out there and the people with access to the cards can go "Wait a minute.. I can crush these slackers with this deck..." the format can really shake itself and can get out of the cul-de-sac without bans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
@Koby. I respect you man, I think you are one of the posters who post the most thought out comments and have the best logic behind it and we have previously seen that you are not just theory but you can also play. As far as I understand you are currently on the Sneak&Show plan to crush at the GP. But honestly, what do you think, is the real problem Show and Tell?
Take Delver away and you axe the deck. Take Brainstorm away and the deck can't do its "stay on 2-3 lands until turn 12" thing as effective anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Take SnT away and you axe the deck. Take Brainstorm away and you remove the ability to shuffle away excess combo pieces as well as making Discard far more effective.
Ban everything. Play Modern. Problem solved.
Tao, you're also missing the part: if you axe Brainstorm, a lot of Legacy players will quit playing Magic.
White Stax is actually bad against RUG delver. White Stax can beat it if it gets the perfect hand, which is the biggest flaw of Stax decks to begin with. A first turn Delver/Mongoose can go all the way against a Stax deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Stax isn't particularly good against Sneak and Show either. I mean what can a Stax player do against the deck if it has no humility or oblivion ring in hand? The deck has no manipulation to get either in hand.
There is a reason people aren't picking up Stax decks in droves right now.
koby says relax.
Then print an instant speed thoughtseize that can't be responded to. Can i?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I wish more people could think this way. Manipulating and tutoring is what makes decks good. If you take Bstorm away from Legacy you get a bunch of shitty zoo and stacks(ok maybe Landstill and enchantress are left) decks. Also GSZ will be the best card after.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
And it's the fukin Delver, Phil!
Basically everyone is overreacting to a perceived problem that isn't manifested through actual tournament play. Let's stop theory-crafting on what the metagame is doing and instead prepare for actual matchups that you can't beat reliably (i.e., PLAYTEST). Then later decide in a few months if we're had enough of whatever is causing the problem.
TL;DR - STOP BANNING CARDS PREEMPTIVELY!
I'm down for some instant speed targeted discard. The unbanning of Mind Twist sounds good too.
Can we ban the DCI? Problem solved.
What I think needs discussion is the weird psychology behind the call for bannings. I am at loss as to the perception of dominance that people are talking about. There was a single SCG top 8 with 3 Sneak Attack decks. There have probably been 30+ weeks of 3+ maverick or RUG top 8ing in one week. Is everyone seeing 1st-4th being Sneak Attack at their local tournaments every week or something? I don't see how the feeling of losing to a particular deck should be relevant to the banning of cards. Losing to someone who has pointed 7 bolts at your face feels stupid when you perceive that you work harder for your wins, but it doesn't really say anything about the balance of the game.
Unban all non-ante and non-dexterity cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
It's not like without brainstorm Blue is suddendly inconsistent, since it would still have Ponder and Preordain. Plus top is a card, and none of those are legal in modern. The big difference is that they don't empower drasticly combo decks by giving them an anti-discard card that is also amazing at shuffling back the redundant combo pieces (especially relevant in SnT decks, less so in storm). Ponder or Preordain even as instants would be nowhere the level of BS, as they can't screw over discard and they can't shuffle back redundant combo pieces or lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
As always, i'm not asking for bans. I'm just saying my opinions. I think that BS is a problem card, and is almost always behind the dominant strategies of this format, with some spar exceptions here and there, like Maverick (Merfolk was an-anti BS deck, so born from BS too). A card like this, while not perceived as unfair, it is actually one of the main reasons many strategies percieved as "too good" are so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperion
For example, consider Mental Misstep. I'm of the opinion that without BS, MM would have been probably much less dominant because :
- the best target of MM would have been gone
- the ability to shuffle back MMs in the lategame would have been gone
We all know MM was the banned card (and i would say rightly so in the light of Snapcaster).
Mystical ban?
Mystical was bonkers etc... But imho a Storm deck without brainstorm would have been percieved a lot less "good" and maybe mystical wouldn't have been banned. Reanimator would have been a lot worse and i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been touched.
IF they'll ever ban SnT or Delver (not that i think they will, SnT because it is nowhere as dominant as strategies usually are before they are nerfed, and Delver because it's a creature and wotc won't axe it period) they will axe decks that would still be good but not as eventually dominant without BS, because BS do all of the things those decks want; it give them protection, the ability to flip delver reliably and the ability to shuffle back redundant combo pieces for missing ones.
Imagine the new Doomsday deck becoming too good? Remove BS and the deck is way less efficient.
In short, i think keeping BS unbanned will lead to:
- a longer in general Banned list, while not right now
- more limited deck design space, aka: less cards being actually played in this format
- an excessive(?) prevalence of the color blue, especially at the expense of black
However banning BS would:
- make a lot(?) of people leave the format because its poster card is gone
I'm for the most card possible being played in this format, and in my opinion BS is an enabler that make a lot of strategies "too good" and consequentially limit both the variety of played decks and the number of cards that could be unbanned.