Miracle Control

I enjoyed Joe's stream yesterday. Good info on it for anyone that plays this deck. Watch the replay if you have missed it live.

sauce, thanks man. I appreciate that. I definitely have more respect for people that stream consistently well, now that I have proved to myself that it isn't especially easy. I think over time I will probably mix in liveplay with narrated replays like you do. I also posted an edited version that only includes the introductory segment and not the games.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

sauce, thanks man. I appreciate that. I definitely have more respect for people that stream consistently well, now that I have proved to myself that it isn't especially easy. I think over time I will probably mix in liveplay with narrated replays like you do. I also posted an edited version that only includes the introductory segment and not the games.

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Could those of us that are not familiar with your site or stream get some links? I would love to watch you play some games. Thanks!

Here is a link to Joe's stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

I defiantly enjoyed the stream Joe, it provided some great little tips and tricks that I didn't always think about, like how you scry your self alot which is something I do less then I should.

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Originally Posted by god_campbell

Here is a link to Joe's stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

I defiantly enjoyed the stream Joe, it provided some great little tips and tricks that I didn't always think about, like how you scry your self alot which is something I do less then I should.

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Thanks.

I'll have to watch this when I get a chance.

I do love a good +2 targeting myself. :)

Thanks for all the feedback. It's great to see some quality legacy discussion.
On the 4 Jace topic, I'd agree that seeing as many Jaces as possible is a good thing and having 4 makes pitching one to Force a lot more comfortable. At the moment I'm on 3 Jace because I don't own a 4th, but I'll be working on it. It does make me concerned about pushing the mana curve higher though. Having 4 spells (3x Jace 1x Helm) at cmc4 seems fine for game 1s, since cmc4 doesn't do much with Counterbalance against several popular decks. Pushing that to 5 means cutting something elsewhere in the curve. Maybe it will make sense post-M14 as more decks run more Jace but I can't say right now.
Ensnaring Bridge is in the main as extra assurance against creature decks, but switching Detention Sphere to the main is a good idea, I'll try it out.
With this and other recommendations in mind, here's what I'll try in the sideboard:
-1 Detention Sphere (moved to the main)
-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Grafdiggers Cage (I'll try Surgical Extraction too)
+1 Circle of Protection: Red
+1 something else

I had a dig through my cards and pulled out the following as potential side deck cards. Maybe people have looked at these before and maybe not, but discussion is always good.
Sanctimony - better or worse than CoP:R? My gut tells me worse, but maybe someone has tested it and has actual information.
Sunken Field - bit of oddity, but it does force your opponent to play differently in grindy matchups. Then again, an actual 1 mana counter like Dispel might be more useful.
Counterflux - this might be good but 3 mana seems like a lot for a counterspell in Legacy.
Pithing Needle - feels mediocre compared to other cards but again maybe someone has better information on this.
Izzet Charm - I think this card gets better post-M14 as an extra way to deal with opposing Jaces. The first two modes seem very relevant and it's pitchable to FoW.
Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist - for things like Storm. Might be overkill considering one can already board into a very counter-heavy deck.
Echoing Truth / Wipe Away - Might be too narrow compared to O-Ring effects.

Any other sideboarding ideas are welcome. There's also the idea of siding into Stoneforge Mystics + equipment, as seen in Sauce's youtube video (really great video by the way, it was a good insight into the mirror match). Has anyone tried this out before?

Hi !

Maybe Im a little offtopic, but let me try to ask :

Can you recommend me to build UW Miracle Control as 1st Legacy deck ? Few days ago I bought pretty cheap Jace. Fetch lands, duals and FoWs are cards that can be used in more decks, I can upgrade/change it to Esper later on + I like RiP + Helm combo. I can make from it Standstill Deck etc, I see many possibilities.

What is current (12th July 2013) state of this deck in Legacy field ? Is it Tier 1 ?

THX 4 answers !

You can absolutely build a UW Miracles build. The only thing red is there for is Blood Moon and a couple sb cards. Here's a build I would recommend:

3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict//4th Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (OR Jace no.4)

3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Energy Field
1 Oblivion Ring//Detention Sphere

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Top
3 Counterbalance

3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce//Spell Snare//2nd Counterspell//4th Force

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta//Other Blue fetch
3 Arid Mesa//Other White fetch
4 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
4 Island
3 Plains

I have no Sideboard for you since your metagame should be the one to dictate that, but this is a UW list I run sometimes when I don't want to run the Moon since it hurts me sometimes more than helps, and can be a dead draw.

-ABC

i have seen a lot of lists with varying numbers of spell pierces, what do you guys think is the correct number?

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Originally Posted by obituary 95

i have seen a lot of lists with varying numbers of spell pierces, what do you guys think is the correct number?

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The matter was discussed at length a few pages back. Like with most things on the internet; a consensus was not reached. Still, you might want to check it out.

Personally, I'd never run less than 2 MD Spell Pierces, and I believe 3 to be the correct number.

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

The matter was discussed at length a few pages back. Like with most things on the internet; a consensus was not reached. Still, you might want to check it out.

Personally, I'd never run less than 2 MD Spell Pierces, and I believe 3 to be the correct number.

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I usually agree, however I could see a 2/1 split between board and main. usually i just run 3

I've been playing the UW versión, just because in my meta Blood Moon is not necesary and I love the more stable mana base.

I'm playing 22 lands and I think I can afford a 4th nonbasic. Has anyone tried a singleton Kor Haven?

At first glance it seems a good card: it generates mana and can forcé an opponent to overextend to a Terminus...

Any experience with it?

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Originally Posted by Jimp

+1 Grafdiggers Cage (I'll try Surgical Extraction too)

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Grafdigger's Cage seems good if you are a RIP deck in the market for more GY hate. I don't know that it's necessary with 3 RIPs and 2 Enlightened Tutors MD, but it's a good card.

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Originally Posted by Jimp

+1 Circle of Protection: Red

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I'm not really sure why any CoP:Red is needed. You already run Counterbalance MD and Leylines in the SB. Burn should be a pretty easy MU. If you're worried about Goblins, Energy Field or Moat is just better.

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Sanctimony - better or worse than CoP:R? My gut tells me worse, but maybe someone has tested it and has actual information.

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Likely a non-issue because CoP:Red isn't really needed. Against the decks that you'd want either, Energy Field or more Leylines is just better.

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Sunken Field - bit of oddity, but it does force your opponent to play differently in grindy matchups. Then again, an actual 1 mana counter like Dispel might be more useful.

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Auras are notoriously bad for getting 2-for-1'd and we aren't particularly in the market for Force Spikes.

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Counterflux - this might be good but 3 mana seems like a lot for a counterspell in Legacy.

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Basically this.

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Pithing Needle - feels mediocre compared to other cards but again maybe someone has better information on this.

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Needle has a ton of value in a lot of MU's. It's great against any Vial deck and it can be a real house against Sneak Attack. That said, sometimes it feels a bit crutchy... Still, I'd recommend trying it out.

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Izzet Charm - I think this card gets better post-M14 as an extra way to deal with opposing Jaces. The first two modes seem very relevant and it's pitchable to FoW.

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While versatile, Izzet Charm has the same problem here that it does elsewhere... none of its effects are particularly worth 2 mana (and one of them off color).

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Rule of Law / Ethersworn Canonist - for things like Storm. Might be overkill considering one can already board into a very counter-heavy deck.

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Ethersworn is good against a number of combo decks. Storm, High Tide, and Omniscience are up there. It also can help fight counter wars against things like Sneak and Show and Reanimator, but it doesn't disrupt them there as directly.

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Originally Posted by Jimp

Echoing Truth / Wipe Away - Might be too narrow compared to O-Ring effects.

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Venser is just better for us. Or Detention Sphere and ORing.

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Originally Posted by Zinch

I've been playing the UW versión, just because in my meta Blood Moon is not necesary and I love the more stable mana base.

I'm playing 22 lands and I think I can afford a 4th nonbasic. Has anyone tried a singleton Kor Haven?

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I haven't tried Kor Haven here, but my inclination would be that it doesn't do enough for being a colorless land. If you are in the market for another non-basic, I would highly recommend running 1-2 Volcanic Island or even a Steam Vents in order to put REBs in the SB.

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Originally Posted by obituary 95

i have seen a lot of lists with varying numbers of spell pierces, what do you guys think is the correct number?

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If you expect a lot of RUG/stifle decks or combo then I'd run 2-3. If you are expecting more Deathrite/midrange or aggro decks, I'd run 0 (perhaps with a couple in the board).

With the new Jace rule coming out, has anyone thought of another answer to Jace that doesn't involve red mana? I had never like running the third REB in the sideboard, and when Joe commented the same thing on his stream but didn't even board it in it really got me thinking that I actually want to go down to 2 REB, instead of going up to 4. BAsically every JAce deck outside the mirror runs Wastelands, though I suppose the Deathblade deck only has 2x.

Problem is, that requires more answers to Jace. I currently only have 2x Vendilion Clique and 1x Detention Sphere. I wish there were a Faith's Fetters that could hit planeswalkers but cost exactly 2 mana, for Counterbalance purposes.

After watching Joe stream last night, it seemed like UWr Miracles is a little bit soft to the good draws from W creature decks. Mom protecting Gaddock Teeg lost Joe both games against Maverick. I know people run Pyroclasm in UWr, but Mom protects against damage.

How reasonable is changing the splash to B and running a Virtue's Ruin or two in the sideboard? You lose REB so some number of Vindicates (or extra O-Rings?) probably want to go in the 75 to add answers to Jace. It seems like this plan would go best with Joe's creature-heavy build.

Or do you guys think that just playing a Karakas or two should usually be enough?

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

Or do you guys think that just playing a Karakas or two should usually be enough?

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Most of the times, that would be enough. With the rules change, that's even better for Miracles. I know Joe runs two copies of Karakas to interact with his own legends, but also having it blank Thalia or Teeg is a nice bonus too.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

After watching Joe stream last night, it seemed like UWr Miracles is a little bit soft to the good draws from W creature decks. Mom protecting Gaddock Teeg lost Joe both games against Maverick. I know people run Pyroclasm in UWr, but Mom protects against damage.

How reasonable is changing the splash to B and running a Virtue's Ruin or two in the sideboard? You lose REB so some number of Vindicates (or extra O-Rings?) probably want to go in the 75 to add answers to Jace. It seems like this plan would go best with Joe's creature-heavy build.

Or do you guys think that just playing a Karakas or two should usually be enough?

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Running more sulfur elementals is always an option if you want to stay in red. Sulfur in the attack step can usually ambush teeg as long as they don't have removal (which they prolly boarded out)

If you wanted to go black tho, I think perish is better than ruin, mom is not that hard to get rid of, it's just when teegs there, things get problematic, perish is also better against goyf decks and elves, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

With the new Jace rule coming out, has anyone thought of another answer to Jace that doesn't involve red mana? I had never like running the third REB in the sideboard, and when Joe commented the same thing on his stream but didn't even board it in it really got me thinking that I actually want to go down to 2 REB, instead of going up to 4. BAsically every JAce deck outside the mirror runs Wastelands, though I suppose the Deathblade deck only has 2x.

Problem is, that requires more answers to Jace. I currently only have 2x Vendilion Clique and 1x Detention Sphere. I wish there were a Faith's Fetters that could hit planeswalkers but cost exactly 2 mana, for Counterbalance purposes.

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Oblivion Ring is still my favorite answer because of it's versatility in every matchup. It can be removed, but in my opinion the versatility far outweighs the fact that the permanent can be removed.

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Originally Posted by Aetherick

Running more sulfur elementals is always an option if you want to stay in red. Sulfur in the attack step can usually ambush teeg as long as they don't have removal (which they prolly boarded out)

If you wanted to go black tho, I think perish is better than ruin, mom is not that hard to get rid of, it's just when teegs there, things get problematic, perish is also better against goyf decks and elves, etc.

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Yep, sulfur elemental usually covers what you need it to, while having more use in other matches like Stoneblade, or even as an uncounterable jace-killer in the mirror (and sometimes ups the entreat clock by maing angels into 5/3s. I even board it in vs SnT decks because it increases my 3 count and the clock from Meddling Mage / Cannonist. :) Most good white players won't attack teeg into open mana to avoid snapcaster / clique trades or surprise angels, so that line is usually not going to happen vs teeg, but if you clean up the moms with elemental, teeg is easy to kill.

If you need more answers I think pyroclasm / Porphyry Nodes just have more utility in other matches. I have 1 elemental, 1 pyroclasm, 1 o-ring in the board (3 terminus, 4 stp, 1 d-sphere, 1 explosives, 1 clique in the main and don't often feel locked out barring sylvan safekeeper / teeg.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

...
BAsically every JAce deck outside the mirror runs Wastelands, though I suppose the Deathblade deck only has 2x.
...

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I've actually been running a basic mountain for this reason for a while now, and it's been very good for me.

Usually Mother of Runes plus Gaddock Teeg is the way you lose to Maverick. Even so, the matchup is decent. It is important to note that when I lost to it on the stream, the third game was actually misplayed. If I had dropped the explosives instead of clearing the board, and then cast the Supreme Verdict the next turn, I would most likely have won. That is one thing that makes both individual cards and matchups hard to judge sometimes: you have to play well in the first place. In this case I did not, and it made the opposing cards seem more difficult to beat.

cipher, the comment about bringing in two Red Blasts only applies to decks that run full Wasteland sets. Against other blue decks, I bring them all in.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

Usually Mother of Runes plus Gaddock Teeg is the way you lose to Maverick. Even so, the matchup is decent. It is important to note that when I lost to it on the stream, the third game was actually misplayed. If I had dropped the explosives instead of clearing the board, and then cast the Supreme Verdict the next turn, I would most likely have won. That is one thing that makes both individual cards and matchups hard to judge sometimes: you have to play well in the first place. In this case I did not, and it made the opposing cards seem more difficult to beat.

cipher, the comment about bringing in two Red Blasts only applies to decks that run full Wasteland sets. Against other blue decks, I bring them all in.

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If teeg is a major concern you can allways try out Renounce the guilds... it also kills knights and geist of saint traft (if people still run those). safekeeper + thalia + mom + teeg is no longer gg :)

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Originally Posted by Mackan

If teeg is a major concern you can allways try out Renounce the guilds... it also kills knights and geist of saint traft (if people still run those). safekeeper + thalia + mom + teeg is no longer gg :)

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I've definitely considered Renounce, even looked into picking up a Foil Korean one, but decided it was too narrow. (Worth noting it also kills Deathrite Shaman, Progenitus, Nivmagus Elemental, Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf and Flipped Garruk Relentless).

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I've definitely considered Renounce, even looked into picking up a Foil Korean one, but decided it was too narrow. (Worth noting it also kills Deathrite Shaman, Progenitus, Nivmagus Elemental, Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf and Flipped Garruk Relentless).

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Also Tezzerat Agent of Bolas, Baleful Strix. A lot of these can be dealt with Celestial Purge already. Hence, they are pretty much competing for the same slot, while Renounce does offer Geist.

(and Liliana)

btw a clear turn 4 gg even without Jace, Clique or anything...

http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/706/bho0.jpg Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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Originally Posted by Poron

btw a clear turn 4 gg even without Jace, Clique or anything...

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The bigger question is: why are there 2 cards in graveyard when RiP is in play?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

The bigger question is: why are there 2 cards in graveyard when RiP is in play?

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just casted. look at the 3/4 goyf...

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

How reasonable is changing the splash to B and running a Virtue's Ruin or two in the sideboard? You lose REB so some number of Vindicates (or extra O-Rings?) probably want to go in the 75 to add answers to Jace. It seems like this plan would go best with Joe's creature-heavy build.

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Black offers best removal. Dread of Night and Engineered Plague would take care Death and Taxes, Lingering Souls, and Geist nicely. Vindicate not only hit planeswalker, hit Karakas also.

Death and Taxes has never been a problem with 4 Terminus 4 StP 2-3 Sulfur Elemental and Punishing Fire or Pyroclasm in some builds.

Vindicate is definitly a good piece, but the real added value of black is Duress against combo.

I would love to have a turn 1 Duress against Omnishow. You check his hand and bite

I'd still rather have REB than Duress against Omniscience though.

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Originally Posted by Poron

Death and Taxes has never been a problem with 4 Terminus 4 StP 2-3 Sulfur Elemental and Punishing Fire or Pyroclasm in some builds.

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You were wrong before, you are still wrong now. Sorcery speed with non-basic land is Not optimal. You can try to play Pyro through Thalia, Port, your red source will not happen. Your only shot is to break a fetchland, even then, they can still Aven Mindcensor it. In a deck that has RiP from the SB, Wastes, and Mother of Rune, PFire is mediocre at best.

I don't know who you have been test with to give you your false impression, but MWS certainly does not count.

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Originally Posted by Poron

btw a clear turn 4 gg even without Jace, Clique or anything...

http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/706/bho0.jpg Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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Looks like a very good deck^^ Tarmogoyf, Bayou, Deathrite and Maze lol
Thank you for reminding me why i prefer Magic Online.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

Looks like a very good deck^^ Tarmogoyf, Bayou, Deathrite and Maze lol
Thank you for reminding me why i prefer Magic Online.

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That sounds like a pretty stock list of Junk actually.

Now, onto something Miracles related. I'm seeing several lists pop up online eschewing Terminus completely and just replacing it with Supreme Verdict. Is there any credit to this, or some reason I'm not seeing? It doesn't sound good, you're now running a bajillion 4 drops, can't instant speed wrath. Plus, you're now cold to Thrun...

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

Now, onto something Miracles related. I'm seeing several lists pop up online eschewing Terminus completely and just replacing it with Supreme Verdict. Is there any credit to this, or some reason I'm not seeing? It doesn't sound good, you're now running a bajillion 4 drops, can't instant speed wrath. Plus, you're now cold to Thrun...

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I can't see why you'd want to pass up on Terminus. To me, it's almost as close to a staple here now as Top. Verdict is a good 1-maaaybe 2-of.

And on a somewhat related note... sometimes against GBx, when facing down multiple planeswalkers and creatures, I've wished that I could find a Planar Cleansing type effect. 6 cmc is a lot, but honestly, that's probably about the point of the game I'd want to cast it anyways. I'm not sure if there is something better for this, but sometimes I definitely wouldn't mind a hard reset. Bonfire of the Damned could work similarly, with the upside being lack of symmetry and the downside being that casting it isn't as straight forward and you'd still have trouble dealing with multiple planeswalkers.

(And on a totally unrelated note, I finally got around to watching all the videos people have been posting and I just wanted to say thanks and keep it up! Makes me want to get into MTG online.)

The only reason I'd play Supreme Verdict over Terminus is because I want to play the classic U/W control deck without SDT and counterbalances. Something like this:

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Engineered explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining top
3 Spell pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Detention Sphere
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Force of Will

1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Engineered explosives
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Path to exile
1 Pithhing needle
1 Humility
1 Seal of cleansing
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Force of will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Rest for the Weary

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Originally Posted by cschacal

The only reason I'd play Supreme Verdict over Terminus is because I want to play the classic U/W control deck without SDT and counterbalances. Something like this:

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With 1 MD E.T., I don't see why you would not put 1 Relic of Progenitus (less harmful with Snapcasters).

Adding one Relic is a good idea. I'm not currently playing this deck, it
is an example of what kind of deck will make no use of Terminus. Maybe this deck it is worth a try but I feel it has too slow masive removal against swarm decks

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Originally Posted by twndomn

With 1 MD E.T., I don't see why you would not put 1 Relic of Progenitus (less harmful with Snapcasters).

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EDIT: Misunderstood the post until right after I posted.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I can't see why you'd want to pass up on Terminus. To me, it's almost as close to a staple here now as Top. Verdict is a good 1-maaaybe 2-of.

And on a somewhat related note... sometimes against GBx, when facing down multiple planeswalkers and creatures, I've wished that I could find a Planar Cleansing type effect. 6 cmc is a lot, but honestly, that's probably about the point of the game I'd want to cast it anyways. I'm not sure if there is something better for this, but sometimes I definitely wouldn't mind a hard reset. Bonfire of the Damned could work similarly, with the upside being lack of symmetry and the downside being that casting it isn't as straight forward and you'd still have trouble dealing with multiple planeswalkers.

(And on a totally unrelated note, I finally got around to watching all the videos people have been posting and I just wanted to say thanks and keep it up! Makes me want to get into MTG online.)

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If your opponent has both multiple walkers AND creatures in play while you have nothing, something extraordinary has happened. It's not very likely he has "everything". The first thing that comes to mind is that perhaps you should tap out less often? Instead keep mana up to counter those walkers. Maybe run a few more Counterspell? Creatures can be dealt with but Im not sure if there is a way to handle a resolved walker with efficiency. Every non-counter answer to a planeswalker has to much against it to be comparable, even just a little, with a counterspell (In my opinion). Discard is nice versus combo but versus grindy decks it's a dead top deck more often than not. O-ring/D.sphere on a walker is not a good plan to begin with and Needle/Revoker/Meddling mage are to swingy. There is no "walker-fix" that I can think of. Dilluting the deck with a splash or with answers to a very specific threath or boardstate (like planar cleansing) is not how a stable control deck reach the lategame, which is all that matters imo. With soooo many terrible cards in the deck allready you can't afford to side-step the "play land-pass-plan" any further. Every time I tap out to play anything but top, cb and maybe Jace I feel terrible and often get punished for doing it.

I think the best plan against walkers is to put pressure or play more walkers of your own. With terminus in the deck it's easy to reset the board and trumf it with a powerful spell. The best I can think of are Entreat the angels, Vendilion Clique, Elspeth, knight-errant, Baneslayer Angel, Stoneforge mystic, Lingering Souls, Venser-shaper servant, thopter-package and Gideon jura. 2 cliques and 2-3 of the others in the sideboard should be enough. (edit: and vedalken shackles)

If a walker slips through I think V. Clique is still the best answer... with the new rules maybe Lingering Souls.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

Hey guys, I am going to try streaming MTGO tonight ...
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

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Hello Joe,

It would be great if you could stream with different versions of the deck (with RIP/Helm, Punishing, Black splash, etc) to see how those game plans manage to deal with other decks.
Best regards.