[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by coricho

Hi guys, I would like your advise.

I've been playing the deck for 2 years now (my favorite MTG deck ever btw)
I keep being told that BUG Delver is a favorable matchup

... but I have yet to actualy win an actual matchup against the beast.
They always have "that last abrupt decay"
to break through a Liliana of the veil an ensanring bridge or a trinisphere

How do you approach the matchup?

Here is my build for reference, I'm having good results with it at my lgs so far. (if I don't have to face a BUG deck)
I even had an opponent raged-quit once (living the dream)!
Nothing fancy here, I like my build clean and right to the point.



1 Nether Spirit
1 Nether Void
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Trinisphere

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Dark Ritual
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
12 Swamp

SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

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I think playing Sensei's Top and swamp fetch lands would greatly improve Pox gameplay.

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Originally Posted by TTX

I think playing Sensei's Top and swamp fetch lands would greatly improve Pox gameplay.

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It actually depends on the build. If you're focused on LD with Wastelands and you're using manlands, 1/3 of your mana base is used for something besides mana. Put fetchlands hitting your health and Smallpox, Pox, and what have you, you could find yourself low on HP and mana.

I did run 1-2 tops in one of my ancient builds in the old thread but found 3 problems.

1. I run big pox, losing HP, even in 1 and 2 life counts for things like Thoughtseize and fetchlands kills me faster than I'd like.
2. Less real land in the deck makes staying in the game with mana much harder.
3. That 1 mana to spin the top is really precious and without Ponder and Brainstorm, SDT actually becomes less effective.

on a minor note, I'd run out of targets for fetchlands in my build as I only have 13 swamps. If I ran 7-8 fetches, I'd only have 6-7 swamps. If you only ran four fetchlands, I don't think you'd squeeze enough value out of it. Again, this is from my personal experience with 50 games or so with SDT in the deck.

Hard Draw, like Bottled Cloister, Jace (if you're an Ocean Poxer I gues), or Phyrexian Arena + life draining spells would be more beneficial I think vs. fixing the top deck. My RUG Thresh deck had a counterbalance flavor a long time ago and BS + Ponder really makes that top epic.

If there are other ways to shuffle your deck without manlands I'm all ears. Ghost Quartering yourself btw is not a good idea. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

It actually depends on the build. If you're focused on LD with Wastelands and you're using manlands, 1/3 of your mana base is used for something besides mana. Put fetchlands hitting your health and Smallpox, Pox, and what have you, you could find yourself low on HP and mana.

I did run 1-2 tops in one of my ancient builds in the old thread but found 3 problems.

1. I run big pox, losing HP, even in 1 and 2 life counts for things like Thoughtseize and fetchlands kills me faster than I'd like.
2. Less real land in the deck makes staying in the game with mana much harder.
3. That 1 mana to spin the top is really precious and without Ponder and Brainstorm, SDT actually becomes less effective.

on a minor note, I'd run out of targets for fetchlands in my build as I only have 13 swamps. If I ran 7-8 fetches, I'd only have 6-7 swamps. If you only ran four fetchlands, I don't think you'd squeeze enough value out of it. Again, this is from my personal experience with 50 games or so with SDT in the deck.

Hard Draw, like Bottled Cloister, Jace (if you're an Ocean Poxer I gues), or Phyrexian Arena + life draining spells would be more beneficial I think vs. fixing the top deck. My RUG Thresh deck had a counterbalance flavor a long time ago and BS + Ponder really makes that top epic.

If there are other ways to shuffle your deck without manlands I'm all ears. Ghost Quartering yourself btw is not a good idea. :laugh:

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The obvious dredge to clear the top Cards, entomb if you want to run it, crop rotation in green.

I used to run2 tops in my GB pox bild and It was nice vs miracles and slower decks, but the second copy can also Lose you the game in some matches, I found running 1 has enough upside that you run it regardless of how inconsistent it is that you get it. I think I have about 70 games with 2 tops and a LOT more with just 1. However it wouldn't suprise me if you could go back and play more SDT in the more expected meta.

Outside Elves agro, the DTB has no fast weenie rush down at least in the traditional sense. Dakmor Salvage with SDT can definitely work if you don't mind the durdle. :laugh: Whenever you Dredge, you're killing a draw phase so that your next 2 or so draws don't suck. For many, I can see that being a reasonable trade, especially if you're throwing away 2 swamps and have 5+ swamps on the field.

I think Necroplasm might also make for an excellent Dredger as he nukes tokens at end of his battlefield entry. Too bad the new rulings won't allow him to nuke transformed creatures... :frown:

in the expected meta you still need to account for D&T which, while not explicitly aggressive, is very soft to many of the same tools that are used against aggressive decks (not as vulnerable in the mana base, multitude of x/1 and x/2 creatures to mop up, usually an ability to spiral out of your ability to reign it back in very quickly if you don't catch them on the front end, capable of ~2 or 3 angles of attack) so i'm inclined to at least throw it as a point. I'd also like to add that, while it isn't exclusively intended as an aggressive deck, any delver variant with pyromancer or basically any monastery mentor deck has similar tendencies to get out of board control capacity and start killing you remarkably quickly if you don't get on top of them in a similarly succinct manner. NoSB and EP aren't terrible in any of these matches, but i like having something a little more generic about telling all the creatures to get off the board, so I usually include a couple damnation, deluge, or my personal favorite, BSZ in the board anymore.

BSZ should be extra nice with top.
Against decks with Daze the casting cost is an disadvantage, however.

I went 2-2 in yesterdays weekly tourney. I was basically beaten by fatigue since i have not slept well for a month.
I still have faith in my deck. Plague Spitter saw some action vs Monastery Mentor.
Hard to say if it is better than tomby in the long run. It was no problem running it in conjunction with Bloodghast. :laugh:

Lands decks are still my biggest problem. Bloodmoon looks to be the best answer but given the cost i'll try other solutions first.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I went 2-2 in yesterdays weekly tourney. I was basically beaten by fatigue since i have not slept well for a month.
I still have faith in my deck. Plague Spitter saw some action vs Monastery Mentor.
Hard to say if it is better than tomby in the long run. It was no problem running it in conjunction with Bloodghast. :laugh:

Lands decks are still my biggest problem. Bloodmoon looks to be the best answer but given the cost i'll try other solutions first.

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If you have 6+ recurring threats, I highly suggest Contamination which is the superior B version of Blood moon. Even basics get screwed.

Yeah, but it does not change the land abilities. It would still be possible to create Marit Lage token.

Diabolic Edict is pretty good against Marit Lage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Yeah, but it does not change the land abilities. It would still be possible to create Marit Lage token.

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Unless you're fighting lands combo all the time (maybe you are, I don't know your meta), being able to stop people who are not mono-B from playing magic AT ALL should be given more weight.

Are you fighting Marit Lage so often that you'd risk splashing red and gaining a less stable mana base? If so, forget what I stated. :frown:

On the other hand, you get your direct damage that Pox normally doesn't use which can kill planeswalkers. Other Poxers use The Rack or C. Scroll but R for 3 damage to Jace's dome is hot sauce.

In my experience, the surgical effects, the needles and dropping a chalice on two is usually enough that if you don't get unlucky, the matchup is very palatable. bring in 11, bring out 11, make their day miserable. if it's really important to you, you can turn the 4th (and maybe 3rd) E.Plague effect into the 4th needle and/or more surgical effects. the only cards I'd consider hitting with surgical are Dark Depths, K. Grip, Punishing Fire and (maybe) Loam. the rest you can beat through with enough persistence. You can also turn some number of creature sweepers into Ensnaring Bridge if the biggest problem is Mariat Lage.

I think this might be the correct route to take the deck. The reason I say that is that there is a ton of built in internal synergy in every card the deck plays...


Discard + Removal + Win Condition
4x Smallpox
4x Pox
4x Liliana of the Veil

Mana + Win Condition
0x Phyrexian Totem
4x Mishra's Factory

Pure Win Conditions
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction

Pure Discard
4x Raven's Crime
0x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

Pure Removal
3x Innocent Blood
3x Noetic Scales

Mana
2x Dark Ritual
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
17x Swamp

By ensuring that so many cards in the deck can play multiple roles, the deck ends up having lots of versatility.

Total Number of Discard Spells - 20
Total Number of Removal Spells - 18
Total Number of Win Conditions - 12
Total Number of Mana Sources - 26

The Mana Curve is very smooth as well...
1cc - 17
2cc - 8
3cc - 8
4cc - 3

Price of progress.

For four bloodmoons, how many red mans sources do i need?

@Noetic Scales

Yesss my old fun deck with a lot of discards and Noetic Scales as board control :-) I also used Bottomless Pit as hard lock.

I am thinking of finding room for Midnight Charm in my 61. Kill Hexmage, pox Marit Lage.
Or tap Marit Lage to get a free swing for a turn. Maybe for lethal.

I do not know what to replace, however.

4 Bloodghast
3 tombstalker
4 nihilith

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 contagion
4 liliana of the veil
2 sensei's divining top
3 shrieking affliction

14 Swamp
4 bloodstained mire
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland

to the four blood moon, you need 6-7 fetches (preferably 4 of which bloodstained), 1 badlands and preferably a mountain. the flip side is that if i'm adding red to pox i wanna play a small burning wish board and Devastating Dreams.

Tnx!

As for a wish board i think that is an idea. Anything costing double red would not be very viable however, imho.:-/

Backlash looks like fun stuff against a few decks, like 12 post, sneak and show, Dark Depths etc.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Backlash looks like fun stuff against a few decks, like 12 post, sneak and show, Dark Depths etc.

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Against Sneak it's only okay against Griselbrand, and it's still not great. Against 12-post it doesn't hit anything that would 1 shot them, so I don't see how it's effective, especially since it seems like a good matchup already.

I expect to have hurt their life totals already before casting it.
Or after. To instant tap a blocker is not bad when it is a big monster.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I expect to have hurt their life totals already before casting it.
Or after. To instant tap a blocker is not bad when it is a big monster.

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Unless it is emrakul which can't be targeted. You're likely better off with diabolic edict of anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2qhyC8PChU

Gleaned some ideas from this. I do notice times where I top deck Dark Ritual and are very sad... :frown: However, instead of having 11 threats, I'm keeping it between 8-10. Being a Sinkhole + Nether Void build, I can't really rely on Rack too much but it still functions simply due to Liliana and Hymn to Tourach x 4 in the same deck.

I'll also need to acquire Dread of Night and Contagion because, as was mentioned, cheap and free spells are too good apparently. :cool:

Notice the lack of top in his build. Weird.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Notice the lack of top in his build. Weird.

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It's not that weird. SDT without shuffle effects (Ponder/Fetchlands) starts to give you garbage after 3-5 turns. In a long grindy game, that's a horrifying situation to be in. I think he's got the Raven's Crime as a way to do something with top decked lands. In my case, I should probably consider either Syphon Life or Worm Harvest. Syphon looks more practical.

What I thought was odd was the lack of High-Impact cards such as E. Plague, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. On the other hand, his 11 threat suite will probably kill his opponent fast enough for the cards not to matter.

Well, what is his reason for not running top? Is it an oversight only?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Well, what is his reason for not running top? Is it an oversight only?

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Why does he need Sensei's Divining Top?

Why not? He can easily make room for it. For example, eight 1cc discard is a bit excessive, imo.
Two top and six 1cc discard is definitely better. He would have to run some fetches, but that isn't much of a problem.

His Modern deck does not include top and for that, and other reasons, i suspect he went from Pox Modern to pox Legacy.


Here is his Modern deck btw

4 Liliana of the Veil

14 Swamp
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mutavault
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Dismember
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
3 Wrench Mind

SB
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Nyxathid
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Waste Not
1 Bile Blight
2 Disfigure
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Damnation
2 Deathmark

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Why not? He can easily make room for it. For example, eight 1cc discard is a bit excessive, imo.
Two top and six 1cc discard is definitely better. He would have to run some fetches, but that isn't much of a problem.

His Modern deck does not include top and for that, and other reasons, i suspect he went from Pox Modern to pox Legacy.

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8 Discard is not excessive when you've got 5 The Rack effects and even more in the sideboard. Should Liliana get the needle, which I'm sure she will, throwing spells to the dome is awesome. Turning every land into a discard spell is also great with Raven's Crime so the need for Top dwindles ever lower. He did not choose to run fetches in both his Modern and his Legacy Pox decks.

I think he believes it's better to have disruption rather than durdle. The retrace spells simply make top decking lands less of a pain and with 2 Racks being a mere 3 turn clock after getting slapped by a Mishra's, he probably believes, like myself, that SDT is actually stronger in other decks besides Pox.

Historically speaking, the majority of Pox decks that top 8'd didn't run SDT. I keep finding that 1 mana burned each turn to use it is just not worth it, even late game, but like everything, you're mileage may vary.

As i see it Thoughtseize and Inquisition have the job of pulling teeth turn one, to be followed by a stronger Hymn turn two. Also to pull counters to free way for playing more important spells. However it's been my experience that they do virtually nothing to enable the rack since they can't force the opponent to discard lands. In that situation i always want to draw a Hymn.

As for not being run in the top 8-decks i think the reason may be that those ran Nether Void in the main.

I have in the past excluded top but changed my mind, again. I don't keep records so i can't say if if helps me or not, BUT i did have them during my recent streak of good performance at the local tourney (including my second tourney win).

I don't mind top in 8rack, i've also ran list that don't run it..
though i've always preferred dakmor salvage and/or darkblast instead of fetches to clear the cluttered top cards when i was running top..because those dredge cards could also possibly enable my nether spirit, bloodghasts, raven's crime, or even syphon life(from the side) by dredging them in the yard..i also kinda feel that running fetches reduces our virtual land count which could be an issue when you're poxing like crazy..or when you need more lands to feed to your raven's crime..

but i've also seen lists that run em', so i guess they're fine..matter of preference i guess..

Yeah, i have won games when dredging bloodghasts into the graveyard:-) I have been thinking of maybe including one DS in the deck. It helps when casting tombstalker too. Even better is Darkblast to put cards in the graveyard. I do no longer rate it highly for creature removal but with top it would be better. Then you can choose the better card to draw/dredge.

There's enough GY hate in Legacy that I've decided to forego Graveyard use. Having Nether Spirit hop in and out is enough. In my days of Crucible, Worm Harvest, Life from the Loam etc, having GY use is strong, but once it gets denied, it's almost as if half your strength gets cut down.

I'd rather be 'durable' in all situations, so if someone brings in GY hate just for my Nether Spirit, it becomes a joke as it's technically a dead card after Nether Spirit is exiled and one less thing for me to worry about. Is the card quality gain worth it? I've found it wasn't. I'd rather just construct the deck in such a way that the top decks are always dangerous. Ultimately, it's less consistent than top, but it's also less weak to hate.

In the Sideboard discussion of that video, Tom Ross mentioned the lone Pithing Needle was for needling SDT and Aether Vial as Mono-B has no way to deal with it quickly otherwise. In that regard, that should explain why he is not running SDT as he'd just end up Needling himself. :tongue:

I think I'll bring back Syphon Life as threat #9 to make my top decked lands 4 life point swings.

So he does not want to needle his own top? Well, his loss. Btw, i noticed he has not run into any chalice of the void on one yet:-)
No artifact hate.

I know what you mean about hating the graveyard. With Rest in Peace in play it can be hard to cast a tombstalker. Still i usually succesfully play around that hate to win. Our decks can utilize the graveyard but we are not dependent of it, unlike dredge.

Can't say much about Syphon Life, i have not had much experience with.
I am too aggro for that i suppose.
Currently i am thinking of solving my Marit Lage problem by all out attack and a spell for finish. Like Kaervek's Spite or Price of progress:-)

Ed. I usually think "how big a threat, relatively speaking, is this card after a Pox?" For example nihilith swings for lethal in three turns, making it a 6/6. Siphon Life otoh would drain it all in six turns rather than ten. This makes a three life drain. On its own!

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

So he does not want to needle his own top? Well, his loss. Btw, i noticed he has not run into any chalice of the void on one yet:-)
No artifact hate.

I know what you mean about hating the graveyard. With Rest in Peace in play it can be hard to cast a tombstalker. Still i usually succesfully play around that hate to win. Our decks can utilize the graveyard but we are not dependent of it, unlike dredge.

Can't say much about Syphon Life, i have not had much experience with.
I am too aggro for that i suppose.
Currently i am thinking of solving my Marit Lage problem by all out attack and a spell for finish. Like Kaervek's Spite or Price of progress:-)

Ed. I usually think "how big a threat, relatively speaking, is this card after a Pox?" For example nihilith swings for lethal in three turns, making it a 6/6. Siphon Life otoh would drain it all in six turns rather than ten. This makes a three life drain. On its own!

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Ideally, I won't be attacking with only 1 threat. A single 2/2 Mishra's or Nether Spirit is slow, so a big Pox or 2 is necessary. Also, I find it better to strike with 2 threats. Rack and Nether Spirit is 3 turn clock after a Pox. If I were to run biggie threats, I'd run fewer. Like old Eva Green with 4 Goyf/Stalkers in the day. Gunning 9-11 threats is crucial to kill Jace if he ever shows up.

I don't think Tom Ross cares about Chalice @1 or what not and will simply accept the match up as is. As we see in the deck build, he's got a ton of 1 mana spells, much more than other Pox decks I've see published. Perhaps that attitude is the way to go. How many CotV decks are we supposed to truly worry about anyway? I honestly haven't seen that many lurking.

How does one play around Rest in Peace to cast a Tombstalker aside from either hard casting it [yowch] or delving before RiP hits the field? If that's the case, I feel that the sideboard supposed to shore up the problem by simply having more 2+ cmc cards to fill the deck vs CotV.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Ideally, I won't be attacking with only 1 threat. A single 2/2 Mishra's or Nether Spirit is slow, so a big Pox or 2 is necessary. Also, I find it better to strike with 2 threats. Rack and Nether Spirit is 3 turn clock after a Pox. If I were to run biggie threats, I'd run fewer. Like old Eva Green with 4 Goyf/Stalkers in the day. Gunning 9-11 threats is crucial to kill Jace if he ever shows up.

I don't think Tom Ross cares about Chalice @1 or what not and will simply accept the match up as is. As we see in the deck build, he's got a ton of 1 mana spells, much more than other Pox decks I've see published. Perhaps that attitude is the way to go. How many CotV decks are we supposed to truly worry about anyway? I honestly haven't seen that many lurking.

How does one play around Rest in Peace to cast a Tombstalker aside from either hard casting it [yowch] or delving before RiP hits the field? If that's the case, I feel that the sideboard supposed to shore up the problem by simply having more 2+ cmc cards to fill the deck vs CotV.

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Yeah, Siphon would ideally be used i conjunction with other threats. That goes without saying! :-)
Btw, it ignores 3sphere/chalice too, if one is inclined to run that, or encounter it . (I love finding subtle advantages in cards!)

I am very interested in learning how Tom Ross will be doing with his deck, and how it evolves.
It is basically his Modern discard deck ported to Legacy. I have tried the pure discard route myself but with little success. If you found more video clips it would be nice if you posted them.

Playing around Rest in Peace: TS could be discard to Liliana to help set up the rack win, or it could be sideboarded out:-)
Third option is to make the opponent discard it to hymn to tourach!
Admittedly its susceptibility to GY hate is a reason i looked for replacements. Any ideas are welcome!

Guys, what are your thoughts on Phyrexian Totem as the large beater to close the game out faster?
I've used it in the past to medium effectiveness, getting punished hard once against RUG Delver (2x Lighting Bolts wiped my board, we both played Draw-Go until he found a Goose while I found not lands), but otherwise performing fine helping keep up :b::b: even through many Smallpox. If Eldrazi Stompy gets super popular over the summer, then it'd definitely stay at home, but for a while I was really considering dusting them off.
Am I just bad? Help.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Guys, what are your thoughts on Phyrexian Totem as the large beater to close the game out faster?
I've used it in the past to medium effectiveness, getting punished hard once against RUG Delver (2x Lighting Bolts wiped my board, we both played Draw-Go until he found a Goose while I found not lands), but otherwise performing fine helping keep up :b::b: even through many Smallpox. If Eldrazi Stompy gets super popular over the summer, then it'd definitely stay at home, but for a while I was really considering dusting them off.
Am I just bad? Help.

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Well, you provide your own answer. There is a need to adapt to the opposition. If the opponent have access to red mana then you ideally want to empty his hand before activating totem, or have plenty of permanents in play to sacrifice just in case. Note that delver decks that run red usually only have four lightningbolts as direct damage spells. Delver burn otoh is more of a burn deck and you need be aware of the differences.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Well, you provide your own answer. There is a need to adapt to the opposition. If the opponent have access to red mana then you ideally want to empty his hand before activating totem, or have plenty of permanents in play to sacrifice just in case. Note that delver decks that run red usually only have four lightningbolts as direct damage spells. Delver burn otoh is more of a burn deck and you need be aware of the differences.

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Well I mean obviously it'll have it's bad matchups, you'll play smart against Burn and whatever. I'm just saying, that was the only time where it came as a genuine surprise, he definitely picked his line of play and played it smartly. But again, as the only example, that should represent the unlikely-but-not-impossible level of risk that's undertaken. But with all the discussion of cards like Tombstalker and moving away from the reliance on the graveyard, reminded me that's the slot where two of these lived in my list. So maybe it's a viable alternative for that higher power creature, or again, maybe I'm just bad.