Printable View
I was pondering - it's sad we don't play a great bunch of clerics (or that Vet Ex & DRS aren't clerics and that most decent/good clerics aren't GSZ'able). Starlit Sanctum is such a sweet card. Also, most (yes, I know, I'm skipping over Mother of Runes) playable clerics start @3 mana+. So there's that.
Finally got to play a few games with Meren in my Junk list against a friend on Shardless BUG. Won 3 out of 4 pretty handedly. Anyway, holy buckets is Meren good. He kept insisting that I had to have experience counters to get creatures out of the yard, but then I read it to him again and his response was "holy shit thats gross." Even without experience counters she is good. Just getting a vet back to my hand and pay a measly 1 mana for a chump blocker and ramp every turn is worth it. I kind of just want to sell my Recurring Nightmare now and get my money back.
Hmm, where did I hear that before..? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by tilzinger
Can't wait to try her out! First reaction was 'woah, big potential'. Now with these reports back of how good she is, I think we've found ourselves a new lady friend :cool:
Junk w/ Meren -> Junk in the Trunk Fit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Thanks Ralf, I have considered strangleroot but am really after the life gain.
Yes Meren is such a house.
@Echelon, I was playing with highmarket but every time I drew it I wish it was a phyrexian tower, So I made it a phyrexian tower. And I think you're going a bit over the top on the sac lands, 10 is a lot. I'd cut them before the 3rd forest if you want to keep getting lands with your second/third vet explorer.
And I generally think 21+dryad arbor is too few lands, I'm looking for veteran explorer and a sac outlet in my opening hand I don't want to risk not having land drops there to go with it. Hence the utility lands, mane lands and card draw though to mitigate.
Finally, no one got any love for ob Nixilis, reignited? I think I like him more than Ajani, he always draws you card and he can defend you too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Ajani is better for making everything a threat. Ob doesn't always come down and kill something. I tried him and I was happier with ajani. Garruk is still an option but GGG is hard sometimes. I cut pw all together for now. Meren is my pw atm.
Ricardio, don't agree on Ajani over Ob, but do agree on Meren
Also, do you mind flicking back a page, I asked you some questions regarding online legacy play, if you'd be so kind :)
Would you guys say that Meren is better than Recurring Nightmare?
If so, I think I just might have to make a cut. I was initially underwhelmed with Meren, but you guys are really talking her up so I might have to try again.
Unless playing a tutor to get nightmare, it is basically easier to play Meren.
At least Meren does bringing something on an empty board.
Meren is GSZable, Decay and bolt proof.
And if you are gravehated, Meren is a legendary 3/4 for CMC 4.
But to get out the best of its ability, I truly think a POD shell is where I would start.
Be cautious to miss the experience counter trigger G2 & G3 to get around Containment priest and Grafdigger's cage.
Dang magic online, impossible to miss triggers :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Get rid of cage or priest, then :cool:
This is an old revamped list (from Qweerios) including Meren (instead of Resto angel) and a few black nasty b.
I'm still pondering about the 2nd veteran (with 1 more forest and 1 less fetch like I was used to be playing) but this means I would have to cut either fleshbag or shriekmaw.
Anyway, my friends are sweating hard at the moment.
Spoiler: Meren is a dirty b.
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Birthing Pod
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
Being stone cold to a glacial chasm without nightmare worries me but it seems like people are loving it being on meren instead of it. Playing meren makes vindicate more necessary if also still running intent .
Edited for clarification.
Or if you don't like POD:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Veteran Explorer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
DRS ? Rhino looping for lists playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
If your LGS is full of lands / 12 post, you should not play Nic Fit, imho, unless you are playing a rockish list like I posted above (as a few pages back also) and bet everything you have on sticking a lili until its ulti.
But that is just me.
You can also play fringe cards like Crumble to Dust, Armageddon, or Ruination in your sideboard if you really want to take Nic Fit into that metagame; it won't be the best, but at least you will have a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
If you're getting Chasm locked, that;s exactly why you're playing Rhino for the loops and DRS, I totally agree. Lands isn't a great matchup in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
I'm not at my computer atm. I will update when I get a chance. Ob is worse imho but that's the beauty of this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
@Ricardio, what's playing legacy on modo like?
It's fun. Can't miss triggers and blue everywhere.
How often do events fire?
I would say 80%+ dailies fire.
Is it regular?
Ya. Only one had not started that I joined.
I'm in the UK and worry that events won't fire when I'm interested. What's the EV like playing in events? Is it worth just playing legacy on there or do you do other formats too?
I play for the love of the deck. If you win more often than lose you are fine. Good day gov'nah from across the pond.
I really wanna join you on the daily listings :)
Hope to see you there, bud.
My lack of punctuation and complete sentences made my point of cutting nightmare hurting already bad matchups completely incomprehensible. I don't have a lgs that supports legacy so scg opens were my only real venue of tournament play. As such many of my card choices play to a wider field of possibilities and accepting i can't always dodge bad matchups and would rather still have some game.
That manabase has allowed me to hardcast Elesh Norn & bigger on a regular basis. Getting lands with Veteran Explorer has never since the inception of this list and manabase (several years ago) been a problem. And if you have all your basics out, that means you're @7 mana. Do you really care that much about your Explorer trigger at that point..? I don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
As for stuff you want in your opening hand: That's why you need to hit a certain number of initial mana sources for that to work, with fetch counting as all 3 colours. You do understand what happens when you cut down on fetches..? Those numbers go down, unless you swap more basics for duals, which in turn would worsen the second/third Explorer you're so worried about. Having a lower count of initial manasources causes you to not have the initial land drops you need more often. Unless Bayou magically taps for G, B or W.
The number of initial sources for any given colour are more important than the total number of lands (since in a way that also dictates how many lands you must run in order to hit said numbers). Less fetches = higher (coloured and often total) land count when building a deck that wants to run three colours.
While we're running numbers concerning opening hands anyways: Running a 21 land manabase gives you a 3,96% chance of not having any land in your opening 7 and a 59,55% chance to hit the sweetspot of 2 to 3 land. When upping the count to 22 land, those odds change to 3,23% and 59,61%, respectively. You're not going to tell me you notice a 0,06% increase in having 2 or 3 hands in your opening hand. You just can't. To plead your case (I'm not a total asshole), when deciding we'd mulligan every hand with 0 or 1 land you'd go from mulliganing 3,23 + 15,60 = 18,83% to 3,96 + 17,88 = 21,84% which would be a 21,84 - 18,83 = 3,01% or once every 33 games increase. Which in my opinion is too small to care about.
@Ricardio, cheers. I actually started playing legacy in Japan. I had access to 2 to 3 legacy events a week, and now I've moved back to England, and well shit, the pond is pretty dry where I am.
I think you misunderstood me and then went a bit over the top (like your fetch lands ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You were talking about cutting a forest for a utility land (you forgot or?), I was merely saying that IF I were you, I'd cut a fetchland for the utility land instead of the 3rd forest. Precisely for the reason you mentioned, that having 7 basics seems to be a magic number.
I then mentioned that tbh it's my preference to not cut any of the lands and instead add the utility land and cut a card because lands are good for you.
I'm going to ignore the part were you teach me how fetch lands work, thanks though, had no idea.
Regarding your paragraph on mulligan statistics, you kind of proved my point. It does make a difference. I can't be bothered to pull up Karsten's article, but I'm pretty sure your arguement can be made the other way as well. Look at all those numbers again with one less land, you'll find that the percentage differences are just as minimal. Probably (lol) about a 0.06% and 3% difference respectively, which in your opinion is too small to care about, so cut a land, go down to 20. You can't tell me you actually notice that small of a percentage difference? Since you can't possibly notice that difference you can do the maths again and realise it's another small percentage gap to 19 land, that's too small a gap for Echeon, better cut a land again... When will this insanity end?!
It's alright if you think 21 land is the sweet spot, just don't tell me my sweet spot is mathematically irrelevant when it's not. That's being silly.
You're the one asking about adding a utility land anyways, sure cut the forest.
That comment mostly displays your inability to understand what's said. Hence your trying to pull it out of context, but that's fine. The post was mostly there to display that a 21 land manabase can be just as sweet a spot as a 22 land manabase. It just demands some sacrifices (hence the absurd amount of fetchlands).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
But yeah, let's agree we misunderstood. Moving on.
Looking at what we wish to cast we could argue that with Dragonlord Dromoka as the top of our manacurve having only 6 basic lands would suffice, so 7 basics isn't necessarily the magic number. Ofcourse that changes when running a 6-drop that can be Dazed, and that's where 7 basics does become the magic number.
Haha.. Yea, best we do. Though you're right, you're not a total arsehole :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I find that in my experience 6 basics isn't enough when you you're fetching basics against a wasteland deck and then want to fetch more off your vet triggers is all, plus you sometimes want to GSun for 6 off of all basics too
But when I'm running a Stoneforge build with shamans and topping out at Sigarda, then I play 6 basics and more fetchlands because you need white mana by turn 2 sometimes.
Meh, just a medium sized one. I lol'd :laugh:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I find GSZ'ing for X = 6 a scary thing to do. It just screams "Counter me!". I try to circumvent that by GSZ'ing for X = 3, finding a Fierce Empath and tutoring up Dromoka to hardcast it the following turn. Good luck countering that bastard.
Oh, wait, you're playing Cabal Therapy too..? Well... Crap.
Kidding aside, the Empath angle is one a lot of opponents don't expect. But with that line you really do have to be careful when facing discard (I learned that the hard way).
Til a flipped delver has cmc 0
And i was wondering why everybody was going like "Oh, delver must be suuuuuch a great matchup for you..."
Question: Meren is weak to drs (and graveyard hate in general) bc it's targeted, right?
That is very true, good sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadadot
Hey everyone. Is Deathrite THAT much of a turnoff for Meren? Also, why does everyone run Carpet of Flowers? What makes it so good?
Read Carpet of Flowers, It gives mana in each Main Phase equal islands opponent control.
This mean that you can play it for 0 on draw, play it, then gain mana in second main phase, and more over it's scaling on each turn, bolt/removal proof mana boost.
It's mostly a replacement for Veteran Explorers vs Miracles (or blue decks with basics and large spells), but comes in vs Delver decks too.
And no, DRS isn't a reason not to play Meren, we have a million ways to kill it. Something worth bearing in mind though, seeing as it's the best creature in the format.
Only once a turn, it should be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
I like the idea with swapping explorers for carpets. I am doing an IQ this Friday to test for the Open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Correct, but it triggers in each main phase being only able to make mana once each turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
That's the plan. Ramping Miracles is very dangerous as they have a late game as good as, if not, better than ours depending on the build. If you don't get a Deed down asap G1 Entreat can finish it fast. And obviously Carpet is great vs Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland etc so you board it vs Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
Good luck at your IQ.
I am planning on running http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/344617#online. Does anyone have experience with this version and have a quick sb guide? I didn't see anything in the primer.
Is it that bad to run an enlightened tutor board? It can get a lot of hate/utility such as carpet of flowers, ethersworn canonist, engineered plague, choke, even rest in peace (for those who run it).
I'd like to hear the opinion of the veterans (pun not intended) of this deck about this idea.
Has Noble Hierarch ever been tried in this deck? Seems like it could be useful to get another exalted trigger at 1 cmc and it still fills the role of a manadork. Perhaps as a sideboard option when you don't want Explorers?
The exalted isn't really worth anything, and Carpet of Flowers is just better if you're siding Explorers out. You only really want to side explorers out vs Miracles anyway, and you'd side out Hierarchs in that matchup too if they were in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
If you want a mana dork play DRSs, I doubt you could ever want more than 4x DRS and 4x Explorer.
Hey! That's me! I am a nicelebrity.Quote:
I am planning on running http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/344617#online. Does anyone have experience with this version and have a quick sb guide? I didn't see anything in the primer
Most of its obvious, at least to me. What would you specifically like to understand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I don't run e tutor package because I see it as too cute. Oddly enough, rip would hurt us more than other decks excluding dredge and rug delver. Plague was always too narrow. My board and some mb decisions are based on the mtgo meta being super blue and delver infested. In a real life meta, 4 decay could be wrong but not on mtgo. In Soviet wotc, abrupt decay you.
I believe Ralf had a theory about how running an E.Tutor package is worse then just running multiple copies of the same card instead. The idea of losing your one-off tutor target seems a bad idea. Id does add some flexibility, but just as with a Living Wish package, it comes with a price.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Unless i am wrong, but it is not a "may" trigger. So it might actually risk judge calls, warnings and even game losses? Since you are benefiting from purposefully missing triggers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
It just seems that there are a lot I would want in certain matches and unsure of what to cut. Just since I have no experience with the deck, can you list maybe the in/out for tempo(delver), miracles, shardless, and combo? I don't have a lot of time to playtest with the holiday, so any info would help me going in.