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I'm just not sure what matchups a 2 of tracker in the sideboard actively make better. Would someone please explain.
Yes the card is obviously powerful but how does it help our terrible matchups? And what are we loosing out of the sideboard for this card?
Or are there decks that become so much better against us post board that we need to diversify in this way?
Sib
I really think that the splash to go is white. Of course Decay is worth it. But, in white you have access to Ray of Revelation, enlightened tutor (and a better sb) maybe nahiri too!
I do not know if someone already give a try...
The reason we play Krosan Grip and Abrupt Decay is that they are 'virtually' uncounterable. Ray of Revelation is easily countered by CB and many other spells ans so is pointless. Also getting white vs a Bloodmoon deck is a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by benjiman13
Enlightened tutor board for what exactly? This deck can't actually waste a turn putting a sphere on top vs a storm deck. What enchantments should we be tutoring for exactly?
People consistently suggest a white splash but don't actually think through what it solves/what it actually makes better in this deck.
Its great to suggest things but they actually need some logic behind them.
Sib
Huh? I hope we are not acting like a white splash is something new to Lands, and that it's not equally hard to get black under a moon. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
White seems to give you e-tutor, knight, thalia, teeg, canonist, revoker (although I guess you can play this regardless) and whatever other goodies you want to run because you have e-tutor now. Seems like having a tutor effect would be nice rather than mulliganing into oblivion trying to find a quick combo/hate piece to slow down storm.
I think barcode was testing out a white splash however I may have missed the post where she gave her thoughts, any chance you could reiterate barcode?
Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist are the big wins from White. There isn't a ton of value in Enlightened Tutor, I think. It's also easier to get white mana while Blood Mooned thanks to Riftstone Portal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
Price of Progress reprint in EMA... would have really loved to see less of this card. :rolleyes:
Tutor can grab Canonist, Chalice, and Crucible, fwiw.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Correct! Chalice, however, is likely to turn off the Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I'd rather play a critical amount of good cards than worry about running enlightened tutor. It's a really shitty feeling to die with one of those in hand when you could have just drawn a Thalia or something and cast it immediately. The card seems like it should play so much better than it actually does in my experience.
I think the white board is always worth keeping in mind though, especially when combo is rampant. I usually run a mix of Thalia, Containment Priest, and Teeg when playing savannah.
I play gamble, its good enough for me. If i really want to keep my gamble card, i can buffer it with a ton of lands in hand. E tutor and white is not where i want to be. go to one of the 4 color loam pages. they have what you are looking for.
with regards to 2 tracker in the sideboard, it offered the same benefits of dark confidant at the cost of speed, but a bigger tempo gain. Stop thinking about it in terms of "helping our terrible matchups." It's good in ~~grindy matchups~~ Games that go long. Ones where running a witch out can often punish us. Test the card. Its really hard to judge the quality and utility of a card by only reading forum posts and downloading decklists like the insipid mass of players who go to the tournaments we are trying to take down. Ray of rev is also bad in the boarded games because the flashback is completely turned off by the graveyard hate. which is the only reason anyone would want to run it. besides it being easily countered.
So is Tireless Tracker good in MUs like Shardless, DnT, etc? Other 'slow' decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar
I was unsure how to board against these MUs earlier this week. (new to the deck)
Hyperbolic, but yes. Decks that want to grind it really shines. outclasses threats, draws cards and goes long, better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
Hello guys,
I play this specific Lands build for a couple of month. I play the straight R/G list and made 9 place with 5-2 two weeks ago and 1 place today with 5-1.
I have problems with Miracles lately and today I tried a new sb strategy. I added 2 choke. I only played against DelverBUG, no Miracle today, but choke won me one game. Stil im not sure if this is the right card against Miracle. Has anyone experience mit choke against Miracle?
choke is a great card if you are not afraid of wear/tear, councils judgment, countermagic, counter balance, venser, or them holding up fetchlands to resolve the spells that kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by StefN
try boseiju in the SB, or MD if its a problem. Boil has great synergy with boseiju. and it can be cast under a bloodmoon.
Just went to a tourney with RG, haven't finished yet, but I am Definately going black splash now.
Game 1
Miracles
0-2
Game 2
Guided passage
1-2
Game 3
Eldrazi
1-2
Noting major to report, didn't make any noticeable misplays. Abrupt decay would have saved me every match, discard would have made all the game 2s awesome, so far comboing off is the only way I have won.
The colors you play will not change the skill cap it takes to beat miracles. Playing black is not a buy to beating miracles. What happened in the eldrazi games?Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar
I combo off game one without seeing too much, game two he beats me down within a few turns, game three i get mana bond and double port out, and start waste + port locking, he drops needle on port then chalice on 1 and i find no out and he beats me down quickly after that.
The next two games I played was another miracle opponent, and then some weird auriok salvager + LED combo, which i beat. Only deck I beat was another combo deck.
I know black splash is not an auto win for miracles, but decay would have been nice to have, i conceded to at least one board state of 2 Blood moon, and a RIP and a Jace, not that decay hits that, but damn that was a tough lock.
Riftstone portal made life really fun when i got to it, a couple times i dredged over half my deck and never saw it. I had gone up to two manabond which made an impact in a few games. never consistently combo'd off, it was kind of sad.
I am going to test Tracker, moving back to the two colour build for it.
Main:
Standard 59 with Bog as my flex.
Sideboard:
4 Grip
4 Sphere
3 Chalice (Leant one to a friend going to the legacy GP)
3 Tracker (higher number for testing. I would normally cut one for the extra Chalice)
1 Riftstone (To side in with Tracker.)
Let's see how it goes.
Is it good to bring in choke against ANT or is that just too slow?
Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
Choke is better than nothing against ANT, they fetch Island (and Swamp) early. Alongside Ports it works well.
Get A sphere out and they will most likely not get to Abrupt Decay.
I also board Choke vs SNT decks and Reanimator for exactly that reason.
Lost 3 straight matches online to ANT. Apparently 4 spheres, 2 chalice, 1 choke and a Bog isn't enough hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
Even when I had a Chalice on zero and 1 sphere down I still lost to a Hurkyl's Recall.
Without a way to close out the game fast with the combo they eventually find the answers.
Cards I take out are 3 Maze, Karakas, Tabernacle, Clasm and 3 Punishing fire. Am I missing something?
You should leave Tabernacle in to hedge for Empty the Warrens.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
You can't keep hands that don't have disruption: sphere, chalice, rishadan ports. This is what you're looking for. If you're playing the White version count in Gaddock Teeg as a piece of disruption. Maybe you can turn 3 them with Marit Lage and sometimes that hand will win but often they'll be able to win before then, so you need disruption.
Gamble can count as disruption.
Sometimes it's possible to make every correct play and still lose. Don't forget that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
I think decay is a great card, but dont give up on RG because of a bad day. i think splashing black weakens our v strong game plan. try out boseiju.
I took down a 22 person GPT today losing only to storm.
my list is
2 fetch
3 depths
2 thicket
4 crop rot
4 fire
bog
karakas
boseiju
raging ravine
SB:
4 grip
4 sphere
2 chalice
2 tracker
zorb
trini
boil
i was able to steal a game from storm by activating zorb 5 times when they miscounted storm. its great! raging ravine was v nice against miracles killing a jace and eating a swords to make room for a witch.
played against eldrazi, delver, and food chain too.
Lets take a poll what is better in the sideboard Choke or Boil?
I play a 2 of Choke and considering going to 2 of Boil.
Of course though Boil would require me playing 1 "Boseiju, Who Shelters All" as well, or do you think I can get away with not playing that?
I think Boil is better. Choke dies to their Wear//Tear that we know they are bringing in. If they are a good player they will also be leaving CB on 3. Boseiju is a really useful card in the miracles MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
I am currently trying a very small black splash of 2 Abrupt decays main so I can have this sideboard
4 Sphere
3 Grip
3 Chailice
1 Boseiju
2 Boil
1 Worm Harvest (This, Chalice on 1 and a Riftstone portal is how you beat Painter)
1 Molten Vortex (maybe don't need this with decay main as an answer to MM?)
Sib
I've also been playing a manland, but it's been Treetop Village. Do you like the Ravine over Treetop, or even Mishra's Factory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar
Also, how many Manabond? That's my big question lately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kohai
i liked the clock of ravine over treetop village. v fast.
0 manabond
I'm leaning more on cutting my 1 manabond too, tbh. I feel like a manland is a better utilization of the slot.
I'm on the straight RG Pfire list w/ karakas as my 1 flex slot and 4 fetch. I'm also thinking about going down to 3 fetch for the bojuka bog in the main.
Shawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
I'm also running a black splash but for 3 abrupt decay main. I've been liking it so far.
My sideboard is a bit different:
4 Sphere
2 Grip
2 Chalice
1 karakas
2 Choke
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Primeval
1 Zuran Orb
I'm going to try dropping the Choke for Boil and not play "Boseiju, Who Shelters All".
Generally when I'm playing against a deck that is going to tax my graveyard I've been taking out 3 loams for 2 Trackers and 1 Prime. So far been working out really well. They generally don't have any great targets this way for surgical.
On the Choke vs. Boil topic:
First, I have no desire to rehash an old row between myself and Cfetch, but I do want to weigh in on this.
Choke, I would say, is overall a better card. It costs one less mana, has a retroactive effect, and is game over versus a wide variety of decks.
Boil, I would say, is a little better against Miracles, since it can't be countered when cast with Boseiju and can't be Wear/Tear'ed or Council's Judgement'ed.
That said, I vote for Choke. You can't just jam Boil against Miracles when they've got two Islands out (I've tried and been punished), and that forces you more toward the style of game Miracles is good at: long and grindy. While casting Boil on a board of four or five Islands will most likely win you the game, I think you'll still tend to lose the majority of games that you try to go long against Miracles (which Boil urges you to do).
Personally, though, I've been unhappy with both Boil and Choke versus Miracles. Boil for the aforementioned reason, and Choke because it is so easily dealt with. I think you're best bet (with RG, which I think is stronger overall than the black splash for consistency reasons) is simply to keep a really fast hand, either an Exploration-Loam hand that can get major advantage quickly or a combo hand that goes off no later than turn three (but turn two is much better). In either case, when you lose against Miracles, it's always going to be a feel bad loss since you're going to get locked out by one enchantment or another. Right now, I'm not bothering with either Choke or Boil against Miracles; I'm just jamming 4 Sphere of Resistance, one Boseiju, and hoping for a quick hand.
That's my input, valuable or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
Great insight dude :-)
BTW I messaged you wanted to know what settings you use for CamStudio because I've been trying to put some videos together. I finally got lands built online and have been grinding out some games with it.
I originally had choke in the sideboard but switched to boil. I play the black splash in my build but only and I mean only for 3 abrupt decays main. I play no black out of the side at all. I know it's probably bad but abrupt decay has been a house for me especially against miracles.
Anyway, I've found boil to be better because you can literally cast it on their upkeep and make them use mana on their turn which chokes them a bit. Honestly I would rather them waste a counter spell on that then a crop rotation or a gamble. Having Boil be a instant is what makes it hands better then choke in my opinion. I don't run Boseiju because I think it's rare you'll have that on bored and have boil in hand.
Again just my two cents. ;-)
My bad. I don't really check my messages on this site. At all, in fact. When using CamStudio, I always recorded as an AVI file, and then I used compressor software (any old free one will do) to compress the videos down to a size that would allow me to upload them to Youtube. You do have to fiddle with the CamStudio video settings a bit, but the settings you need differ depending on your computer and on what negatives (in screen resolution, frame size, speed per second, etc.) that you're willing to live with. Best thing to do, I would say, is watch a tutorial for CamStudio on Youtube. I mean, that's what I did. All in all, though, to get CamStudio to work properly, it's probably only a matter of an hour's research.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
Good luck. Would love to see some more Lands videos.
went 2-1 yesterday in a small event.
round1: win against a cycling laboratory maniac deck
round2: loss to burn. lost game 1, won game 2 and game 3 i had chalice on 1 but overproduced my board with no hedging against price. turns out price was the only not 1 cmc card in his hand. I punted that one myself.
round3: win against RUG delver. I tried out tireless tracker in this match. He was able to give CA and race a delver after I had Loam surgically extracted. He's better than I suspected he'd be but bob gives effortless card advantage for no mana investment. That being said, I don't splash black to try to stay consistent (and 1 bayou in the deck doesn't seem like a solid plan for casting black spells more than 1 time) and don't really have access to bob. I played 3 in the SB.
about Tireless Tracker: he will help out in games where you are essentially durdling, which happen. He isn't straight gas when you have better things to be doing with mana like bob is (and with nearly zero opportunity cost). Honestly, if courser of kruphix was one green pip in the casting cost, I would just slot him in instead; but the 2 green means he is tough to cast turn 2-3 in some games. In effect, if you expect a 7+ turn game or if you expect to be durlding, tracker is not a bad card to bring in.
What gigapatrick said about Choke vs Boil pretty much echoes my exact same opinions about those two cards. I would rather use those slots with Tireless Trackers or Bobs with the black splash to eke value out of vs Miracles or other matchups where the game will go long.
I wish there was room for more manabond, it does so much work when I draw it, (the only way I won those games in that event)
On the subject of manlands, isn't Ravine a bit of a heavy investment? compared to treetop anyway, 2 vs 4 mana?
Let's have a GP Columbus conversation. Whose going from the Lands group and what are you hedging your sideboard slots for? Personally I expect to see a whole lot of Eldrazi. I fear having to play against Miracles more then once.
Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
Still on the R/G 61 Maindeck plan for the GP. Running Bog Main, Riftstone Portal, and Ghost Quarter as the 61st card. I couldn't decide if I wanted to keep Rifstone or Ghost, so I'm just going with both.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
Board is:
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of The Void
1 Karakas
2 Boil
1 Boseju, who Shelters All
Boil has been pretty good in testing. Had one game where I fought through double Blood Moon and Boiled him and raced his Jace. I don't even care if the card is super good. There is nothing more satisfying than boiling some Miracles player. Considering how many dead cards we have against storm I would even bring it in against them. Also had a game where he had Countertop, and I had a Sphere and a Boseiju, and had an uncounterable Crop Rotation because I paid the tax effect with Boseiju. Considering dropping a Chalice for a Trinisphere, but I'm not sure yet.
I'll be at the GP on Friday (as well as all weekend) so I'd love to talk Lands, tell lands stories, and discuss which basic forest we think is best.
I'll be at the GP.
My main is
4 Gamble
4 Mox
4 Crop Rot (May go to 3?)
4 Exploration
4 Loam
2 P. Fire
2 Molten Vortex (This is probably the weirdest thing)
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Maze
4 Depths
4 Wasteland
4 Port
4 Stage
1 Treetop Village
4 Groves
3 Green Fetch
2 Thicket
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Bog
2 Taiga
1 Forest
Sideboard
4 Grip
3 Chalice
4 Sphere
1 Karakas
1 Warping Wail
2 Choke
Treetop is the 61st card, but I'm gonna try a Ravine this weekend.
I'm pretty biased against Miracles, where I sideboard in everything except Warping Wail and Karakas.
Last night I went through the gauntlet a few times with 2-3 Tireless Tracker, and wasn't sure if it was needed. I liked playing a Treetop and just getting in with that.
I would also like to talk about the P. Fire/Vortex split. I've played 3/1 and felt like I didn't draw the Vortex enough to make it good. I tested the Dark Lands for a few weeks and just didn't love it. AD main is sweet, but not sure if it was worth it.
Testing every night till Thursday, so fingers crossed. I get in late Thursday night, so I'd be happy to meet up and discuss plans on Friday. Hitting up the distillery!
I'm going.
I'm not testing as much for this GP as I did for GP SeaTac but I'll be taking the white splash with Teeg, Tracker and Canonist. I might play 61 cards in the main deck to squeeze in a Ghost Quarter. Right now there's a Worm Harvest in the main.
I unfortunately will not be attending the GP, but I wanted to share my decklist and thoughts, and hopefully get some thoughts from other players who are also trying to play RGb with abrupt decays and p fires over molten vortex.
27 spells
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
4 Mox diamond
4 Crop rotation
4 Punishing fire
3 Abrupt decay
33 lands
4 green fetch
2 taiga
1 bayou
1 forest
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 thespians stage
3 grove of the burnwilows
3 dark depths
3 maze of ith
2 tranquil thicket
1 tabernacle
1 bojuka bog
15 sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient grudge
2 Choke
4 sphere of resistance
2 chalice of the void
3 tireless tracker
1 karakas
I think the only big surprise in the maindeck is that I've cut glacial chasm. This card has been an automatic one of in my decklist for as long as I've been playing the deck. But recently, while trying to figure out where to make some room for decays, I gave some serious thought to whether or not the card is essential. My conclusion is that chasm is meta dependant, and in many metas lacking burn, infect, zoo, or UR delver, chasm just isn't necessary, especially with additional removal in the form of decay to manage the board. I haven't missed the card very much in my local meta, but I haven't played many matches against the decks that would make me want chasm.
I've settled on a 4/3 split of P fires to abrupt decays, and I'm currently on 3 grove of the burnwillows. I wanted as many P fires as I could fit in order to have a turn one answer for a turn one deathrite shaman, but there are only 3 groves, so sometimes recurring fire is not as reliable. This makes sense to me because finding a grove is much easier than finding a fire.
I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of playing chasm or the 4th grove as a 61st card, but I'd also consider karakas or riftstone portal.
My sideboard is very much up in the air, but I only have 10 black sources total so I'm staying away from T1 black spells like duress and thoughtseize. I'm playing tracker over bob as an alternate card advantage engine when access to the GY has been denied by RiP or surgical, and I think it's much easier to cast tracker.
One of the things that I dislike about the above list is that I couldn't find room for a singleton manabond. Even if I could find room, would it be worth playing? OR do the maindeck decays just make the manabond too awkward?
One of the things that I really like about this list is that with RGCL I always felt like I needed to bring in some number of K grips postboard to deal with troublesome artifacts and enchantments, but if my opponent doesn't have any cards like that then I've made a very bad hedge. I would often die to dudes with a K grip in hand. The abrupt decays change this dynamic greatly. Having access to an increased number of answers to artifacts and enchantments in general makes me more willing to be a little more liberal decaying for example an aether vial or piece of equipment.