Well, it was that. I mean, the thing dates back to the age when Tarmogoyf went and invalidated just about every threat in the format and people were splashing it more or less everywhere. The last 200 pages though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
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Well, it was that. I mean, the thing dates back to the age when Tarmogoyf went and invalidated just about every threat in the format and people were splashing it more or less everywhere. The last 200 pages though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
4x Loam, 4X Gamble, 4x Crop Rotation would like a word with you. Seriously, have you ever actually played this deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Glimpse + GSZ + NO is pretty solid too.
Those engines are extremely narrow and have to be built around in comparison. The brainstorm/ponder/cantrip package reduces variability in all decks that run them (which would be beneficial to pretty much any deck outside of low variability decks like straight aggro), and this package doesn't have a crux like loam and glimpse (to a lesser extent) are in those packages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I don't disagree at all; though I'll note that D&T gets by with redundancy as well as the aggro decks. D&T is not in a great spot these days, but the decline of Sneak Show alone might account for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by phonics
My point is that playing a more narrow engine (with the appropriate deck) =/= suffering. Anybody who disagrees ought to try out Lands for awhile (which has good to excellent MUs against the majority of the almighty cantrip decks).
In reading through this series on the History of Legacy, I found this quote that perfectly captures the situation with Brainstorm. I've been rather apathetic about the issue, but reading this quote makes things much clearer:
The miracle mechanic put us well past that point now though, and things will only get worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Barnello
The justification was sketchy - but it relied on a principle established at Legacy's birth. When Legacy was established, DCI decided the game's best tutors and fast mana would be banned. The MT justification hinged on re-evaluating the card as a top tier tutor.Quote:
It’s hard to capture this feeling of foreboding into succinct language, which is why the discussion of the justification behind the banning floundered.
For WotC/DCI to make a similar move with Brainstorm, they'd couldn't use the same rationale. Not to say it couldn't be banned - just to note the justification would "flounder" even worse. Ultimately I'm not sure how much they care about justifications these days - if they want it gone they'll come up with something.
I think if Legacy gets much more cantrip driven (and stays that way) we could see BS and Ponder banned Vintage style. Likely DTT will go before it comes to that.
Temporal Trespass requires you exile 6 cards just to make it a harder-to-cast Time Warp. It's nowhere near the power of Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
But it is. There's one non-blue deck in the DTB, and there's a single 4-of in every blue DTB: Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
This is the more applicable part of the quote, altered for relevance:
Quote:
what it did do was bottleneck the creativity and variety of decks in the format – as long as [Brainstorm] was around, it would be the first card in a list full of broken things.
Legacy is more cantrip driven than Vintage ever was. Not that the comparison is apt. If I want to play a format with 10-15 slots that are basically must plays, I'd play Vintage. Which I do. Legacy is not Vintage. 1.5 was a place where I could use cards from all the sets I've ever bought without the burden of Magics most absurd mistakes. This is the reason it was created in the first place. A format where you didn't start your deck building exercise (not that anyone actually builds decks anymore) at 48-52 cards.
I may well be wrong about Trespass, but that's not exactly a persuasive argument: If you exile 3 lands with Treasure Cruise it turns into Brilliant Plan too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Exile 6 cards with Treasure Cruise and you draw three cards for 2 mana. Exile 6 cards with Dig Through Time and you end up with... well, Dig Through Time for UU. Exile 6 cards with Temporal Trespass and you get a harder-to-cast Time Warp. The point is that at a point where Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are yielding you wildly crazy results, Temporal Trespass is giving you a worse version of an unplayable card.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
In fact, let's compare the analogy you made. Sure, exile 3 cards with Treasure Cruise and you get the not-very-impressive Brilliant Plan. But that at least gives you a card that's considered "on the curve" (maybe slightly behind when one considers Concentrate, but Concentrate requires UU rather than U). Exile 3 cards with Temporal Trespass? You get Time Stretch except it's harder to cast and gives you only one extra turn rather than two. So you at least get an almost-on-the-curve card when exiling 3 cards to Treasure Cruise, but you get a card that's so behind the curve it's hilarious when doing that with Temporal Trespass. It's like comparing Grizzly Bears with Wood Elemental. Sure, Grizzly Bears may just be average, but average is still a lot better than outright awful.
No matter how many cards you choose to exile when casting the cards, Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise still give you a significantly better mana-cost-to-effect ratio than Temporal Trespass does. Even if you go all the way and exile 8 cards for Temporal Trespass, I'd still say Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time give you better effects at their lowest casting cost than Temporal Trespass does at its lowest casting cost (which requires more cards to exile).
The time walk effect is less broken than it seems. Miracles could easily be hitting time walks off temporal mastery if it were worth including in the deck. But if you're behind or playing a slower deck, time walking is just the same thing as casting explore. Huge difference between that and cruise's insane card advantage / DTT's card advantage + tutoring.
I don't know if time walk for UUU would even be strong in legacy, but 1UUU seems clearly unplayable. Cryptic command is in many ways time walk anyway, often it's even better, and it is unplayable in legacy.
On reflection you're probably right - Tresspass has very limited application, and it's unlikely to be a ban-worthy card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
That said, the argument against it is card efficiency, and not mana efficiency: Tresspass will often cost 0 net mana, but most decks that are willing to trade cards for time either won't fill the graveyard or don't want extra turns because they're storm combo.
Have been on an extended break from the format. Can someone update me on how it's been evolving in the last few months? Have people realized that dig is awful for the format and needs to go yet? I'm hoping this situation ends up like cruise where I called OP BS from the start only to be scorned...but eventually people came around.
A lot of people have been aware of how insane Dig is from pretty early on. The issue is whether WOTC notices the situation and acts upon it (and so far they have not).Quote:
Originally Posted by eays
The question at this point is really if wizards even cares enough about legacy to ban dig.
FTFY. I know you meant the more played, more powerful card.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Why was Treasure Cruise banned but not Dig Through Time? DTT seems much stronger.
Because Treasure Cruise was too dominant in the eyes of WOTC. DTT has not yet been seen as such, but we will find out in a couple weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Brainstorm and Ponder are both better and more dominant than either. Why aren't they banned? The answer is lack of management of the format. Legacy isn't a Pro Tour format. Period. That's the only reason your all still unmulliganing for U and a fetch, putting Terminus back on top after opening with 2 in your hand, and laughing when you get Duressed. If Legacy was played at any high level they'd be snap banned, no non basic land has ever 32/32'ed a constructed GP and not been banned in any format but legacy. Actually ... has any card ever 32/32'ed a GP besides Derpstorm? I haven't played standard since Fires of Yavimaya. Did Jitte 32/32? Skullclamp?