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Ponder is the reason this deck never(Edit: Rarely) craps on you, your deck is full of situational cards that you really want multiples of in individual situations and never want otherwise. Wastelands, creatures, forces, lands, removal are all cards that you get away with only running as 4 or 8 offs because you have ponder in your deck. Jace 2.0 is not a replacement as he doesn't solve anything untill you reach 4 mana, which is very late game.
@Goddik: Thanks for your insight. And yeah I did notice during testing that I was running out of gas quickly, though normally that happened with either a Goyf/Stalker on the board so technically I was winning.
I considered dropping ponder since I wanted more answers than cantrips so I opted for a list packing more hard-counters (though conditional) than cantrips and so far is working for me.
Counter:
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
4x Spell Snare
3x Daze/Spell Pierce
During my testing I cut ponder in place of MM, since I did not want to remove Stifle MD since that card can just outright win you the game, even late game it can still work wonders.
I'll try and test out my list against various deck archetypes as I have only tested it against Landstill, MUD, Spiral Tide and Merfolk and packing that counter heavy suite has proven it's worth, though I am really considering dropping Jace 2.0 and might put ponder back in-place of Jace.
In my opinion there are two important differences between team america decklists: 22 lands + Jace (may be because stifle is worse with mm and morever with more tribals decks and nobles is harder to screw mana bases) or 20 lands + 4 Stifles. What is better stifles or jaces?
I prefer Stifles over Jaces, but the big issue is that Jace will sometimes win games on his own. For Stifle, if they top deck a land -- sometimes you just lose.
My gripe about Jace is when he is played your playstyle suddenly becomes control, either your Goyf or Stalker now becomes a wall to protect Jace which could have potentially been have used to bash your opponent in.
But yeah he has good and bad days and is qctually a good deterent to your opponent not hitting your creatures since most players would see Jace as the bigger threat, but isn't it by playing Jace with an unanswered threat (Goyf/Ts) on the table just confuses the gameplan a bit? Since technically he'll just be a win more card.
Don't get me wrong Jace is a good card in itself though I'm concerned if TA really has a home for him. Especially since TA is a tempo deck.
I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi
Stifle gains some power when played along with MM 'cause you can frack with the card that make your mana-denial strategy obsolete : Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey.
All gets stomped by MM, making you stifle way more powerful after that.
Wasteland, Daze, Hymn, along Stifle are the core of this ultra-tempo deck. Without Stifle you're diluting TA main purpose and goal.
If you want to play Jaces, Deeds and a less tempo approach, Jace Landeed is the way to go, and it do it well.
Your playstyle should be control throughout most of the games. All of your hate is build to set up a temporary window in which your opponent has no resources available. Dropping goyfs on the table prematurely is in most matchups rookie mistake nr1.
My experience with Jace is also that he sucks in maindeck games where you don't want 4 lands on the table (i.e, actively brainstorm them away) and try to finish games by beats because your late game power just isn't all that hardcore. Postboard he is great against most things because your answers are better and you can play more of a pure control game plan, hence why i board him in in like 70% of my matchups but don't main him.
It is important to distinguish between old-school team america and the new-age lists with confidant. The new age lists are not tempo decks, they are control decks and as such are much better suited to run Jace. In fact if you are running confidants i would certainly run at least 2 jace main, maybe even 3.
On Lolsoons comment, the Landstill deck Frauenschläger played at BOM is quite nasty and accomplishes much of what the new-age decks attempt to do, just better. It does require a certain playstyle though
This is so true. Just had to QFTQuote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
I wanted to slightly disagree with part of this, about becoming control instantly when Jace lands. I'd say about 2/3 of the time that I play Jace, it's as a game-ender, not controller. I'll put him down and bounce a dude to get the last few points through, ensure that they don't draw their one-outer to save them before I kill, or just to kill their own Jace that's been locking me down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baghram
About 1/3 of the time I play Jace it's because I know I'm in for the long game and want to strengthen my position as much as possible. It is naturally a control-ish card, but he definitely supports an aggression plan.
@Baghram
Much of the power of stifle and wasteland stem from the fact that you can find a an overwhelming supply of them through ponder and brainstorm when your opponent is manascrewed. I.e. you are simulating a 12 card mana denial card plan with 8 cards by running ponder. The same thing goes for dudes, counters and removal. That is why it always seems like the Team America player "has it", because the games go long and you have ponders to find the particular "it" that they are afraid of with their particular draw in that game. Cutting ponders is like peeing to keep yourself warm. It seems like you are adding something the deck needs but everytime you substitute a ponder for gas of a certain type you are removing gas of all the others.
It is also very essential to making the 20 land no basics manabase work in practice
on the whole temp decks can't run jace issue: AJ Sachers next level Thresh'ish list ran lots of jaces with stifle and wasteland. Team America is likewise more of a tempo-control then a tempo-aggro deck if that makes any sense. The reason you don't want Jace preboard is not that he doesn't win the game every time you resolve him (he does), but that the game doesn't go long enough for you to reliably assemble 4 lands on the table and still have gas enough to fight. Again if you cut the stifles and go to 22 lands then playing jace becomes much more plausible, but at that point you start needing a cardadvantage engine to make up for drawing all those lands if they can deal with jace=> Dark confidant
I have found that both cards are quite good in the main. I used to run jace in the board, but every time I board him in he is amazing. Usually wins you the game if you untap with him. That being said I am a big proponent of stifle. It was the main draw for me to play this deck. I do feel with control being every where and aggro and combo taking a back seat Jace is currently very good in the main for this meta. I am running both because stifle is so important in protecting your own lands against wasteland. I have cut down to 3 which is a 'bit sad. I just found that I was always stuck with them in hand vs a control opponent.
On a side note Thrun has be awesome in the boards or me against landstill. I am also thinking I would like a Null Rod in the board to help agaisnt MUD/Affinity. Thinking about cutting a Snuff Out for a Pulse to help with the Jace war. If you want to check out my list it's on page 62.
Goddik hit the nail on the head when it comes to how the deck operates.
You could cut almost any card for a Jace, and it would probably be correct.
Here's the problem with Stifle in the current metagame: If you run Stifle, you have to run Daze, and Daze sucks shit. Your lands drops are more or less critical for this deck to function, much in the same way that Counterbalnce was - 2UU for Jace, BB for Hymn or Stalker, 1GG for 'vore etc. People seem to think that Daze acts as a time walk for lots of decks, but thats really not true. I'd explain it, but its going certainly derail this thread. It really only belongs in Merfolk, where they can cheat on mana, or maybe blue decks from 2007, when we were comfortable running 18 lands. hahah, the good old days.
Wasteland has actually become a spell that costs a land drop. Mana denial just doesn't cut the mustard anymore, and you can't just use your wastelands willy nilly. Stifle is really only good for punishing bad players who keep bad hands, running bad decks. I'll eat my hat if it shows up in the top 8 of this GP.
Pondering Ponder: I think you should run it as a 2-3 of. The reasoning behind this is because Team America, or BUG Tempo, or whatever this deck has become, is comfortable running into the lategame. Ponder will help you find what it is you need when your opponent topdecks a trump card. Mirran Crusader with a Jitte got you down? Ponder up that Diabolic Edict, etc. It's for this reason that you CAN'T keep land light hands with a ponder, hoping to draw some lands with it. It's sort of insane to do so anyway, when the deck runs, what, 22 lands? Also, need I remind you guys that Pondering with a Bob in play is one of the sickest things you can do? As much as it sucks compared to brainstorm, when used effectively, you'll win more games with it as opposed to running more removal. If that's what you're afraid of, cut the thoughtseizes first.
Here's my current list:
22 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
8 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
32 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mental Misstep
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
1 Smother
15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Null Rod
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
It pretty much has a lot of everything. And Dredge is played heavily in my meta.
I also haven't given up on Stifle. I think Wasteland and Fetchlands are common enough.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Preordain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
2 Daze
2 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
I'm giving Sinkhole/Stifle/Wasteland a try once more, because everyone and their brother is trying to ramp to Jace mana. I think Dark Confidant compliments this strategy, because trading cards for their Lands becomes much better when you have a stream of cards coming. I think Stifle is underestimated, because you can't mulligan a hand because it contains Fetchlands. Stifle on their turn 1 Fetch into Dark Confidant is scary, especially with Sinkhole + Wasteland in your deck.
Jace costs 4 mana. It's not hard to deny them of that, especially while on the play. Thoughts on Sinkhole? It seems good with Dark Confidant.
You guys are just posting worse UGb thresh lists. When it becomes clear that mana denial is your strategy, competent opponents will play around that. This was an acceptable deck selection pre-misstep.
I have seen the light, and his name is Jace.
Check this article: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011...-america-team/
Since Misstep is in Legacy, America has definitely changed. A lot.
If you're not playing Jace, you're playing the deck wrong.
If you're playing Jace and Daze, you're really playing the deck wrong.
If you're playing Stifle, you probably shouldn't be.
Confidant is much better than Tombstalker right now. Stalker will just get unsummoned and you will lose. Stalker also wants Daze and Stifle, which doesn't bode well with Misstep, as you become a very inefficient MUC deck at that point.
Don't run Force, Misstep, Daze, AND Stifle. Especially with Stalker. You have too many reactionary spells with too few proactive cards and no draw source.
The best series of turns with America & Bob is:
T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition
T2 Hymn
T3 Bob
T4 Jace
Bob and Jace are absurd together.
Running Force, Misstep, Daze and Stifle is fine in the old list. Misstep is actually brilliant in the land destruction plan by countering brainstorm and hierarch, even ponder at particular times to deny tempo. The reason the author can't find room is because he has a large number of cute cards in the main like Kira and clique.
Daze is still awesome, everyone and their mother wants to cast this little toddler called Jason, getting him past daze and wasteland isn't all that easy.
That being said it is a pretty good article with its emphasis on the two strands as different decks.
My big gripe with running confidant is that he forces you to commit to the board on turn 2. This is admittedly much easier when you have 4 missteps and 3-4 thoughtseize effects, but he is just so bad in so many situations. I really want a cardadvantage engine in the deck, but not one that is so fragile. Results do though speak for him, but i am far from convinced that it is the only way to play the deck.
On the confidant lists: What are peoples experience with regards to a secondary creature? AJ sacher played vendillion clique in the last open, GerryT originally ran terravore and LSV seems to have popularised the 2 Tombstalkers. What are peoples opinion on these?