Ahh... you're right... I do have 62 cards. Nvm, but yeah... cut a Priest and a Boa.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
@hungryLIKEALION: White weenie has shitty creatures... like seriously.
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Ahh... you're right... I do have 62 cards. Nvm, but yeah... cut a Priest and a Boa.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
@hungryLIKEALION: White weenie has shitty creatures... like seriously.
I had a question on the recent 1st place zoo deck's sideboard. What matchups would you bring STP in, and what would it replace? If anyone could answer this for me that would be great.
Maindeck:
Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar
Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library
Instants
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Lands
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 Price Of Progress
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Swords To Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Probably some 3 damage spell. And against aggro, or decks with more Goyf-like creatures, AKA Tombstalker, Dreadnaught, Spiritmonger, Coatl, KoR, Terravore, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayzonious
They're for decks with opposing tarmogoyfs, and I'm prety sure you side out two chain lightnings for them, but I can't say that for sure since my list is different.
I'm saying this for the lolz, but,
Hatfield's recent list ran Thoctar over KoR, so i mean shouldn't the Hatfield worshipers make the same change as well!?
LOLOLOLOLOL.
But seriously, either card is good in that slot in my opinion.
That's my Zoo for Legacy:
Creature:
4 Kird Ape
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instant:
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Magma Jet
4 Path to Exile
Enchantment:
2 Sylvan Library
Land:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
I don't like Grim Lavamancer. No synergie with Knight of the Reliquary, needs to much Mana, not enough spells for him.
3 Fireblast because I want see 1 of them.
Library splash with Jet.
Arid Mesa for R new Fetchie but it doesn't matter Heath or Mesa.
Any comments? To much duals?
Hey, Alix Hatfield here. There have been several questions about my sideboard in this thread, so I suppose I should address them. I have been very happy with my sideboard; I have hardly changed it, tournament to tournament, for several months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayzonious
The Swords to Plowshares ended up in there after a testing session against Goyf Sligh, a slightly unfavorable matchup that has become pretty common in the Northeast. Not that Swords is the best card we can bring in for that matchup (I really wanted to play Honorable Passage, actually), but it is the best card we could come up with that also has applications in the mirror, and in other matchups. Actually, Swords is one of the most versatile cards in the board. I bring them in not only for Goyf Sligh and the mirror, but also against Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, Goblins, Ichorid, Eva Green, and any other matchup in which the opponent might try to put me on the defensive with fatties before I can get him into burn range. This means I'll even bring the card in against CounterTop decks, if they have fatties other than Tarmogoyf to threaten me with.
As far as what STP replaces, that's kind of hard to say. I think it's a lot more useful for me to just post a rough sideboarding guide:
CounterTop
-3 Chain Lightning
-3 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Plains
-1-4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Krosan Grip
+3 Price of Progress
+2 Vexing Shusher
+2 Choke
+0-3 Red Elemental Blast/Swords to Plowshares (depends on the build of CounterTop)
Merfolk
-3 Fireblast
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-2 Sylvan Library
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Choke (on the play)
+2 Vexing Shusher (on the draw)
Goyf Sligh
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Woolly Thoctar
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Zoo
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Kird Ape
-1 Plains
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Canadian Threshold
-3 Fireblast
-3 Chain Lightning
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+3 Price of Progress
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Choke (on the play)
+2 Vexing Shusher (on the draw)
Goblins
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Woolly Thoctar
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Ichorid
-2 Woolly Thoctar
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Plains
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
This is an approximation of how I've been boarding the deck. You do have to alter the plans slightly to account for variance between your opponent's decklists. Price of Progress ends up coming in somewhat more often than this would suggest, since I'll happily find room for it against four-/five-color Zoo lists and three-color Goblin lists. Price is also great against a lot of control decks that I haven't listed here.
There were some questions regarding Choke earlier in the thread. I'd like to answer them, but there isn't much to say about the card. It's kind of slow, and it's sort of easy for the opponent to counter, but it almost always wins the game if it resolves. It's a lot worse against Merfolk than it is against CounterTop, but it still wins games (for example, Game 3 of Round 6 in Charlotte, in which I was facing down my own Goyf, taken by a Mind Harness; my opponent was manascrewed, but Choke was a complete blow-out).
Honestly, I'd like to have more Chokes in the board, but it's too narrow and there isn't any more room. I love having a pair, though, since they show up often enough to be relevant, and they represent a completely different angle of attack for Zoo. I don't care how many Tarmogoyfs and Swords to Plowshares you draw, if you can't cast them.
But seriously, why the switch to Thoctar? I'm curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Very informative post Alix. Thanks. With a few more words it has enough content to be published at SCG for a few $$$ bills yall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I played Knight for awhile, but I got really pissed at how slow it is and how often it clashes with Lavamancer. It seemed that almost every time I drew the card, it would languish in my hand while I did better things with my mana, because paying :1::g::w: for a 2/2 or a 3/3 just doesn't cut it, and because I wanted to keep activating Lavamancers (which meant that the Knight would never enter play any bigger).
Thoctar, on the other hand, is always huge. I rarely feel silly investing three mana in a 5/4. The fact that he *only* trades with late-game Tarmogoyfs doesn't bother me much, when he is so much better earlier in the game.
The biggest concern about Thoctar seems to be its susceptibility to BEB, which is unfortunate, but I side out the three-drop (whether it is Thoctar or Knight) against several blue decks (Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, Team America), anyway, because of mana denial. It's also worth considering that Knight gets neutered by Relic of Progenitus, a card that is seeing play in maindecks.
Anyway, I made the switch back from Knight to Thoctar for the NJ tourney on the 5th, and am happy that I did so.
Haha, thanks. If anyone else wants more of my input about the deck, just let me know. I think it's really good, right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackaber
My thoughts exactly, he seems like a late game card if anything, and some games you don't hit 3 mana, even through mana denial, and sometimes don't even want to. He gets huge, but sometime not huge NOAW which is what THoctar is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
First off, I've got to say that I appreciate all the work that's been done on the Zoo deck, I've played a lot of Aggro-Loam in the past, but Zoo looks like it's slowly becoming my deck of choice.
My question is about the miser's Jitte in the main, how has that been treating you?
The maindeck Jitte has been there since I moved the Prices to the sideboard. When I did so, I moved the fourth Path from the sideboard to the main (where it probably should have been all along), and the Jittes were the next-most maindeck-worthy cards in the board. However, to compensate for the loss of reach, the third maindeck Price slot became another Fireblast (at the expense of the fourth Price, which no longer fit in the sideboard), so only one Jitte had to go in.
Having a single copy of Jitte seems random, but it isn't a bad card in many matchups. Drawing multiples can be a liability against some decks (CounterTop comes to mind), but that possibility is completely eliminated this way.
In general, Jitte is a good tool for Zoo to have access to, but it has some pretty significant drawbacks, and it's probably best if you don't see one in every game. Thus, even though I am happy to sideboard a second copy, I've never wanted a third, and I think the maindeck singleton makes a little more sense in that light.
I ran with one jitte main at gencon and it proved quite good for me. I suppose this is rather anecdotal, but I recall drawing it three times in the 8 rounds of gencon and it saved my bacon twice. One to destroy a merfolk player's jitte game one, one that let a goyf ride to victory vs goblins when I could only draw land and the third just sat in my hand as I won without it.
I actually like the last 1-3 slots in a deck to be one-of good stuffs. Like if there's 2 open spots, I'll toss one jitte, one oblivion ring in there and see what happens. Then for sideboard put #2 or even #3 in there for a few of em. Works for me.
I also have a question. Why do you sideboard out Sylvan Library against merfolk? I've always felt like that was a very useful card in that matchup, especially in the face of mana denial. I leave it in against most decks that play some combination of wasteland and stifle, since resolving it lets me play through those cards pretty much flawlessly. Is it because of the life loss and you don't want to risk losing a race to the little blue fishes?
Anyway, I played in a tournament on Sunday. The list I played;
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire (Still don't have that 4th foothills.)
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Stomping Grounds (Couldn't borrow more than one taiga.)
1 SC Mountain
1 SC Forest
1 SC Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Figure of Destiny
2 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB:
4 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Duergar Hedgemage
4 Pyroclasm
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
I still feel like this is a pretty good list. I beat Countertop(2-0), Sneak Attack(2-0), TES(2-0, oddly enough), and 4c Survival(2-1), and lost to Ichorid (0-2) then beat the TES player 2-0 again in the top 8 before losing to the Ichorid player 0-2 again in the top 4.
It was the first time I've felt dissatisfied with my list in a long time. Then again, playing 4 rounds against combo is not usual in my metagame. No one has played storm or dredge at my store for months now, so I long ago cut my gy hate to make more room for other matchups. I'm gonna begin reworking my build again since it looks like these matchups may be showing up more in my meta than they used to.
On the plus side, I managed to trade for my second FTV Kird ape and get a Taiga from the store by trading in some lackeys and a force of will. So now I'm just one Taiga from owning the whole mana base... woo hoo.
Lastly, funny story from the survival matchup. Game 2 I had two fetchlands down, a dual, and a basic, and was at 4 from his attacks. He was at 17 and had 4 non basics, so I decided I would have to burn him out. I had two lightning helixes and a Price of Progress in hand, so I just had to top another burn spell to win. I was going to EOT the two lightning helixes, untap and PoP, but then I got the idea that I could crack my fetches and PoP in response to only take two from the PoP... only to forget that the fetches put me at 2. That's the most flagrant play error I've made in a long time, but it made for a pretty hilarious moment. Thankfully I won the match anyway, but I was pretty mad at myself. ;p
What are the implications of the new cards from Zendikar and the unbanned ones on the metagame when it comes to Zoo?
I'm predicting harder times as Entomb and that Vampire guy start showing up. I can't really say about the Reanimator match-up but it does seem hard. What I can say is though that there's not really a damn thing we can do about the Vampire or Marit Lage. It seems like an auto-loss if it comes down any sooner than our alpha strike.
Not saying that Entomb or the Vampire will make it into a good deck or anything but regardless, people will test them in tournaments as well.
I did some testing a few weeks ago to determine the value of Sylvan Library in the Merfolk matchup, by adding a Library to random six-card hands and playing from there. What I found is that spending a turn to play the card often slows you down too much, unless you wait until it is too late for Library to really matter. Thus, my conclusion was that it is usually better to have another creature or removal spell in hand, and I started boarding Libraries out in this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
You are right that Library helps you power through mana denial, though, and when Merfolk beats Zoo there are usually some Stifles and/or Wastelands to credit for it. It's possible that, despite my testing results, the Libraries are still better than the Chokes/Shushers that I've been bringing in in their place.
Umm.. Hi, Marit Lage, meet path to exile?Quote:
Originally Posted by GMTemplar
Seriously, that's a cake walk. >_>
Well, I have neither chokes nor shushers on my sideboard, but I have pyroclasms which I bring in. I'm probably gonna cut those though to free up more space for the matchups that aren't already incredibly easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
At hungryLIKEALION : Lightning Helix is great in the mirror, but in general, its fairly weak, You would would rather have a 1cc removal spell against most matchups. And dont run swords in the main, it runs quite contrary to your overall strategy.
Understand that teeg and 1 cannonist are much much less than what would be needed to effectively combo counter . You are much better off solidifying your CB matchup then devote slots to something that will beat you anway. I would also concur that Clasm is not necessary, even to beat goblins. You simply have too much removal for them, and every creature you play is bigger. The one matchup that can effectively be shored up without loosing too much would be GY based decks. Somethink like this might be worth a try:
3 Grip
2 REB
2 STP (4 path main)
2 Shusher
1 PoP (assuming 2 main)
1 Jitte (one main)
4 Crypt
Even when that new trap comes out I still wouldn't play it. Reanimator doesnt really put more than one or 2 cards in the gy at once, so for the most part the trap is limited to ichorid.
Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
I've been running 2 Lightning Helixes instead of the Jitte and a Fireblast, and some more Helixes in the board (There's a noticeable amount of burn in my metagame), but I can see that happily going right back.