A 3/3 Shrouded Mongoose isn't really that scary when you consider that 2 mana gives a 4/5 and 4 mana can give you something even larger. I don't see how this deck type is still viable in the current meta game.
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A 3/3 Shrouded Mongoose isn't really that scary when you consider that 2 mana gives a 4/5 and 4 mana can give you something even larger. I don't see how this deck type is still viable in the current meta game.
This is not the problem, it's rather the way this deck works. It somehow does for some reason, but it plays 2 spells average per turn and has no possibility to generate any cardadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
This is the reason why tempo thresh can't play a control-role on the long run. Maybe for 2 turns or something, but you will need a creature to make that efficient (and that's why a 3/3 creature that doesn't need to be protected IS actually scary for the opponent).
I'm not doubting what the deck can do but it's simply a strategy that doesn't seem as scary as it used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Goblins and Merfolk have ways around the mana denial ala Vial. A single vial utterly ruins this deck.
Zoo is quite vulerable due to running three colors, but can easily match your mongoose with their 3/3 Cat if you can't deny them hard enough.
CounterTop is also vulnerable but if they land a Top followed by a Counterbalance, that is almost game.
I guess what I am trying to say is that this deck doesn't seem to have the punch it used to when compared to news of now. Back then, a 3/3 Shrouded Mongoose was amazing. Now, it's still a good creature and works in this deck but I have had it not go all the way simply because the opponent was able to outsize him just by playing creatures.
Vial is a must counter for the deck. Force or Daze becomes pretty critical. Game 2 you have Pierce, Grip, Predator as other options to deal with it.
Bolt can handle the kitty. And Wasteland makes it smaller.
Have you ever played the deck? Successfully? No offense or anything, dude. But there are obvious problems that just ruin this decks gameplan, but that's every deck.
I have played the deck and sometimes countering a vial isn't a option when the opponent also has counters [Merfolk], or there are other things that if you don't counter will cause you issues [Goblins].Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
When poking around the Lotus Tourney, I heard that there was a Tempo Thresh list that was running Jace the Mind Sculptor over the usual bounce spells. Although I haven't tested it and the list didn't T8, I think that New Jace warrants a look because he does everything I've wanted in my flex spots. He's one of the most permanent removal spells in our colors. He generates legitimate and long term card advantage in a deck that has zero ways to do that. He's an absolute fucking bomb in late game topdeck races, which this deck has a hard time winning (if your opponent drops a Goyf after an exhaustive resource battle, you usually have 0-2 long term answers left to draw). He's as much of a long-term wincon as a guy like Trygon Predator is.
Although he's more expensive and slower than the bounce config that's usually run, but I think that doing everything that he does warrants some testing. I'll try and give it a run-through tomorrow.
There's a guy in my meta who runs one main and an additional one in the board. Not sure if he has 19 lands or something like that to support him but it definitely sounds like a worthwhile plan. It's so rough to out-tempo people as much as you can and just not have an answer to one single Tarmogoyf they resolve. I've seen some decks on deckcheck that have 19 lands and 2 Cryptic Command in the bounce slot but Jace 2.0 seems better. Let us know how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
There is a very good list around containing Jace 2.0. It placed 9th at GP: Madrid, so didn't get much attention. As a long-time TT-Player it immediately drew my attention, though.
Courtesy of Smenni's work, here is the list:
9th Place, Rafeal Del Riego
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
Sideboard:
3 Firespout
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
I like it, but I don't have any Jace now.
Meh. It looks like Dreadstill had a baby with Tempo Thresh more than anything. I'm not interested in man-lands, cutting Goose, or shaving a bunch of crucial cards down to three-ofs while simultaneously upping your curve. I'm not discounting its success, but it certainly doesn't look like something I would play, or that fits snugly in the discussion of Jace as a replacement for bounce.
Am i wrong or isn't this the "Next level ********" list again? I already think running cc4 spells in the Canadian shell won't work as its to much to invest.
After some "discussion" with someone on another forum about Canadian Thresh in the current meta, I'll just ask here.
What do you CT players think about the situation of CT in the current meta?
Does it have a place?
Is the BoM finish just random or is it because the deck is strong against the current meta?
Can someone tell me about how many Top8 finishes CT had during the last 365 days?
The number of top8 finishes isn't really relevant, because very few people are actually playing the deck compared to other archetypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
The deck is just fine, though it's not as potent as it originally was simply due to the fact that people know how to play against it now, whereas before they would walk into stifle and daze, or put themselves in situations where a single lightning bolt will end the game.
Although a resolved vial is problematic for this deck, goblins and merfolk are both favourable matchups, so the impact of this deficiency is lessened considerably.
Lastly, for anyone who doubts the potency of nimble mongoose, you severely misunderstand this deck. The goose is the most important card in the deck and is completely irreplacable.
I think Thresh is still a legitimate option in the current meta. I can't think of another Aggro deck better equipped to deal with combo. One reason that people may be down on this deck is that it is difficult to pilot. I ran Zoo and Merfolk before I ran Thresh, and I found those decks much more forgiving. Once I got the hang of Thresh it was very good to me. It is also much more fun and satisfying than those other decks.
For the past few weeks, I have been running New Horizons. I find that deck very similar to Tempo Thresh. I even play it in a similar fashion; by saving mana for Stifle, Pondering, Countering, Wastlanding, all while playing my creatures a bit later in the game. The main difference is that the threats in NH become much larger in comparison (around 10/10 for sure). Of course, Thresh has some strenghts over NH (Shrouded Goose, better combo match up, amazing 1 land hands!), but I have had more personal success with Horizons at the moment.
A question about Jace 2 in Threshold: How do you get the mana for that guy? I am a fan of the 18 land build, and it seems really unrealistic have 4 mana available after sacrificing Wastelands and such. You could never play it around Daze unless you have FOW back up. I found V-Clique difficult to play for the same reason, and it costs 1 less.
I actually once tried replacing the V-Cliques with 1 Trickbind and 1 Dreadnaught. I can't say that it was a success, although my opponents did have to waste resources they normally woudn't (Explosives, Counters, etc). Maybe nextime I will go with the original bounce spells. I actually never tried those in the flex spots.
I've found V-Cliquie hard to play as well. Between dodging Daze and dealing with wasteland (you can't always have the stifle for it), two cards that are everywhere, getting the land needed to actually get one to stick isn't always a given. I'm going to keep playing them a bit more since I'm still pretty new to the deck and like the added threat density, but it seems like it takes few turns on average to get three land out, especially if you are proactively using your wastelands against the opponent's mana base. I'm going to play a few more weekly tourney with the cliques and maybe swap out to bounce spells if I continue to have a hard time getting them out in a timely manner in games.
I certainly can't see Jace being much more than a card that pitches to force with the current mana base. Four mana + dancing around opposing dazes is really rough for this deck.
My two cents as a new Legacy player-I think the deck still has some game in it. Most of my losses playing and testing it so far were always close and usually had play errors on my part (it's tricky and pretty interactive, which gives you plenty of rope to hang yourself with). It doesn't do anything really unfair though, and doing unfair things both can quickly win games you otherwise would have to work a lot harder to win and steal games against your matchups that are otherwise really bad.
Also the slight move to more edict/sacrifice effects and green hosers like Perish hurts Thresh quite a bit, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUnit
Then I misunderstand this deck now. I would like for you to explain this to me as I don't see this decks power being the same it was a few formats ago when Mystic Enforcer was a game ender.
This deck's gameplan in most matchups, even when it is counterintuitive to do so, is usually to apply early pressure while using disruption to delay the opponent's gameplan long enough to end the game. Not can the goose come down on turn 1 if necessary, but it is a perfect foil to all the tarmogoyf removal which is rampant in this format. Against many decks, which bank on removing creatures, a resolved goose can quickly end the game, whereas tarmogoyf may end up hanging out in your sideboard after game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
The goose is what allows this deck to so forcefully pursue a tempo/disruption gameplan. We don't have the resources (card advantage) to both protect a threat and generate tempo and mana denial against our opponents. The main strength of the goose is that it provides a reasonable clock while requiring no babysitting. Sure, when goyf is good he's really really good, but the goose is a more reliable and resilient win condition. I can't fully articulate the strengths of the card, but take it from someone who has been playing the archetype for ever: nimble mongoose is what makes this deck work.
I think Tempo Thresh needs to compare itself to New Horizons. Both decks have the same resource denial plan, with slightly different plans to end the game (Nimble Mongoose vs. KOTR/Terravore). Personally, I feel that New Horizons plays the better threats, and more of them. Every creature in New Horizons is virually impossible to outclass in the combat step. The same can't be said for the Mongoose.
The comparison between the two decks is plain to see, however the decks play out quite differently from one another. New Horizons absolutely plays superior threats, but thresh gets the benefit of more of a tempo game because it has burn spells, fewer land, and it doesn't have to tap out to play threats. I think the benefits of New Horizons are more tangible and much clearer on paper than those of thresh. Once you test both decks they begin to seem much more different from one another than they look on paper. NH is not just "the same deck with better threats." Beyond the maindeck, 4 red blasts out of the board is another boon provided by red.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
GUnit is correct. New Horizons' creatures are hard to outclass in combat. However, they're easy to outclass with spot removal. Sowrds, path, smother, etc all give the deck problems. Nimble Mongoose is a very resilient threat, and your best card against control decks (Landstill, etc.). Goose is made even better because a lot of sweepers get stopped by Stifle (Engineered Explosives and Deed), and he even dodges Maze of Ith against lands. Also, the red in the sideboard is huge. REB is insane against blue decks, killing Rhox War Monks and such against bant and ensuring your spells always resolve post-board. You also get pyroclasm against tribal where decks that play one or two giant dudes like Terravore and Knight tend to get swarmed by guys plus a few lords.
What is a sideboard for blind metagame?