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My post read that way, but at the time I was thinking about how both Phyrexian Obliterator and Geth's Verdict could push the Gate into cutting Wasteland. Obviously, Geth's Verdict isn't amazing enough to kick Wasteland out by itself, but I was trying to say that it would be another incentive, along with the incentives we now have (Phyrexian Obliterator, Hymn, Gatekeeper), to kick out Wasteland to make the manabase consistent.
I'm not saying this is the best build by a long shot, especially I made it earlier today, but with that said here's what I have:
Main:
2 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
13 swamps
3 gatekeeper of malakir
4 dark confidant
4 phyrexian obliterator
4 vampire nighthawk
2 extirpate
4 surgical extraction
4 dark ritual
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
2 umezawa's jitte
4 geth's verdict
Side:
1 gatekeeper of malakir
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
3 diabolic edict
3 null rod
[ cards ] [/cards ]Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
Surgical extraction/mana-free GY attacking is interesting as an idea, but 6 slots, including extirpate seems excessive. Let us know how testing that works.
And paying 2 life AND having that grip of fetches instead of just swamps seems like a bad idea.
why maindeck 6 GY hate cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
I may be out of place here...but I cannot figure out the need to run the fetchlands. It is another form of lifeloss, it feeds opposing Terravores, and are DEAD to a Blood Moon. I don't get it. I would much rather just draw a Swamp.
OBV....it thins the deck out mid-late game....but I don't think it's enough to warrant their inclusion.
TOURNAMENT REPORT
17 people, 5 rounds, Tuesday Legacy FNM
this is the list I ran:
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymnn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Umezawa's Jitte
16 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Damnation
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Faerie Macabre
First of all.. despite 21 land, constant shuffling, and double mulligans...I still had difficulty getting to 3 land. No reason for it.
Second... the Dark Rituals make Damnation SO MUCH better. Obv...right? I didn't factor that into the dark Ritual debate before. OR a first turn Plague. Third...maindeck Bog was responsible for TWO game wins. One of them...game 1 vs. dredge, wiping 18 cards away on turn 3 on the play. There are a few other highlights but here are the match results..
rd 1
Ravager Affinity (WITH Etched Champion)
I'm on the play and keep a hand with Confidant, Edict, two swamps, Dark Ritual, Jitte, and Persecutor. Play swamp, pass turn.
Then it happens. There are times when they vomit turn one and you just flat out die. How's this:
memnite, memnite, memnite, vault of whispers (tap for...) springleaf drum, frogmite, tap drum and memnite for myr enforcer.
Really? I know the deck can do it....but still. I draw a Wasteland. Play swamp, dark ritual, Confidant, and Jitte. Pass.
He plays Mox Opal, Seat of Synod, and Arcbound Ravager. Swings with frogmite and enforcer, hits for 6. I draw for confidant....a Gatekeeper, draw for turn..Bitterblossom.. Too late. I play Wasteland. Equip Jitte to Confidant, swing. He sacs a land and a memnite to ravager and blocks. I lose confidant, get two counters, kill other 2 memnite, he sacs them to ravager. Then waste his other land, which he sacs to Ravager.
He draws, plays another Vault of Whispers, and another Opal. Then an Etched Champion. Empty hand. Swings for game. I didn't scoop so I could see what else he had.
Game two he has an Etched Champion with a Cranial Plating by turn 3 that I can't deal with.
I am now going to up the Null Rod count to 3 or 4 in the board.
rd 2 Dredge
a turn 3 Bajuka Bog on the play was all I needed for game 1.
games 2 and 3....not enough sideboard hate arrived in time. He hit huge game 2 and it was over before I could blink. Game 3 was closer....but 2 big Cabal Rituals to my face did me in.
rd 3 Reanimator (with Welder)
I won 2-0
I simply had the removal for everything he tried to do. Persecutor beatdown game 1, faerie swarm game 2 (double Bitterblossom and a Nighthawk).
rd 4 Goblins
close match....went to turns game 3
game 1 he goes off.
game 2 I edict his lackey b4 it hits, and an early jitte on a confidant held him off til the swarming fae got there.
1-2-1 but I played the last round anyway.
rd 5 Affinity (Tezz 2.0)
I got WRECKED.
Game 1 he goes off turn 2. Plays Tezz turn 3.
Game 2 he wins even after a HUGE Damnation! He simply followed it up with a Tezz and a top-decked Thoughtcast, and 2 turns later took the last 8 life I had. I mulliganed to 5 for the second time of the day...keeping a hand with Pithing Needle, which I decided to choose Cranial Plating over Tezz.....that worked out REAL GOOD.)
To compete with Gobs, Elves, and 'Folk the Damnations are needed with Dark Rituals. Plague isn't as good as it used to be. It's played around. Spot removal doesn't work. Against Affinity the Damnations are good, but more Null Rods would have helped. Don't know if the burn matchup will work out too well without a Jitte and Nighthawk on board early.
Bitterblossom, Jitte, and Confidant are the heroes. My matchups today just happened to not be affected too much by discard. One game against goblins and one game against reanimator (go figure..!) were the only times it was relevant. The maindeck Bog was big.
I'll try it again...but the local metagame right now just doesn't seem welcome to it.
You will have to excuse me for not reading through all 66 pages. So I don't know if this has been mentioned before.
Dark Ritual and Wasteland are strictly tempo cards. When playing them you actually loose card advantage. With ritual you will get 2 for 1ned (possibly worse). Waste land you play banking that your opponent cant recover the loss of the colored mana or the utility the removed land provided. It is also a target for other wastelands while playing all swamps nullifies opponents wastelands (so technically you get the same 4 land advantage as not playing them as with optimal use).
So I would advocate against the inclusion of wasteland. If you need acceleration Mox Diamond (or chrome depending on land count) I feel are more reliable than ritual.
Dark Ritual enables a turn 2 Damnation or Leyline, or a turn 1 Plague, post board. It has the possibility to bail you out of a missed land drop or two, and can sometimes provide early blowout starts (Duress into Hymnn, T2 double Hymnn..etc). It can enable a Jitte cast and equip same turn. I have stated 4 reasons to keep Dark Ritual, each one good enough on its own...but could provide more if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihlus
Your optimal turn two play is Dark Confidant. Wasteland doesn't hurt here. It provides the colorless. Same for Bitterblossom if you end up with that in play turn 2. Diabolic Edict can also use the colorless, as well as a possible T2 Abyssal Persecutor (although ill-advised depending on match-up), or T3 Nighthawk. In no way has Wasteland taken you away from your game in any situation here. Therefore, no negative side to using it. Together WITH Dark Ritual you can cast anything in your deck on T2. They work well together.
Now for the benefits of Wasteland......do I really even need to go into this...? How about Rishadan Port? Maze of Ith? Geae's Cradle? You can't forget that there are lands that exist that simply wreak havoc for you. Forget about what they do for the opponent...if your Nighthawk cannot attack or block because of Maze of Ith or Glacial Chasm, keeping you OFF lifepoints and COSTING you lifepoints at the same time...you have a problem. Your opponent will simply do nothing but watch your suicide to an active Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, or both. There are so many situations where Wasteland will help you an nearly zero where it hurts you in THIS type of build. Combined with Dark Ritual, they are much, much more than tempo cards. Card advantage..? Yet another reason they work in this build is because Dark Confidant creates card advantage..while you simultaneously force your opponent to discard.....MORE card advantage for you.
I know you said you didn't read the earlier posts, so I respect your ideas and input....as I'm sure everyone in this forum does....but this particular idea has already proven beneficial many times over.
Hektek, Dark Ritual doesn't belong here. I can't even concede that the turn 1 Rit->Duress->Hymn play is that awesome, because you're trading CA 1-for-1. It's like you and your opponent just mulled to 4. And cutting Wasteland has been discussed, for the simple reason that it does dick with the manabase. It's really good - and I think it should stay, for now, at least. But it's not a bad point to raise.
I understand, Bako. I have even been in on those debates over the two and their inclusion or not. I have a much different opinion on it now, though, having just ran the deck in a tournament....after a week of testing. It is a valid point...but I simply debate the other side of it. I flat out lose to Goblins in game 2 without Wasting not 1, but 2 Rishadan Ports. After playing the deck, in its current state.....I wouldn't play it without the Dark Rituals. Plain and simple. Unless someone really came up with a great idea I haven't heard yet, and was quite convincing.
The Rit/duress/hymnn play isn't always the right play anyway. It depends on the match-up. You can recover quicker than they can with the Confidant. Going 1-for-1 or 3-for-3, although equal in card advantage, plays into your strategy and in MOST cases...against theirs.
I am open to ideas definitely... because I want to turn around my results. But the turn 2 Damnation, two turn 3 cast/equip Jitte to Confidant...among other situations...were highlights of the deck on the day. Without Dark Ritual and Wasteland...results probably would have been worse than what they were.
Extirpate and Surgical Extraction are not worth maindecking, they are not even worth sideboarding since better hate exists. You have 6 cards which dont impact the board in any way, and will only have a significant impact in the long run. That is a pretty bad plan for a format as fast as Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
Why run fetches? Stifle is still a card, and you are running bob so the life loss is relevant. If you cut those fetches you could upgrade the Inquisiotns to Thoughseize without any impacton the amount of life-loss you have.
Go for the Throat seems better than Geth's Verdict. Without Persecutor the only reason to run edicts is Emrakul/Progenitus, and not being able to hit creature you want to kill Vs Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo/Bant is pretty important.
Maindeck Bog + 3 Extirpate + 2 Crypt + Faerie? Why are you trying to hate on dredge so much? Unless it is 20%+ of your metagame then running 6 dedicated cards in your board is way too many, especially when you are running extirpate which is actually pretty weak vs dredge (compared to Crypt/Relic/Trap). More targeted discard would be nearly as good, as taking their breakthrough/only discard outlet is just as bad for them as extirpating something, plus it would make your other combo matchups much better to have 4 Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy in the board in addition to the 2 Inq + 3 Duress and 4 Hymn MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by heretek242
I wanna try this list, please help me to improve it:
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hymnn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Go for the Throat
4 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
21 Swamp
Well you have 8 removal and 10 discard, all of which is great in the right situation, but dead otherwise. This is not really a problem with your list specifically, but with black control builds as a whole.
I would find room for at least 2 Tops (-2 Innocent blood probably, since you aren't always going to have a good sac outlet) to try and improve your draws. Nothing sucks worse than coming out swinging with discard and removal, only to slowly be overwhelmed by top-decked threats while you draw more discard, or losing to combo because you couldn't seal the deal before they set up a win.
easy...wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
and you don't need 4 obliterators. the rule of thumb is 4 cards if you want it in your opening hand, 3 if you want to see it in the game, 2, if you like to have it to win, but not necessary to win, 4, must be tutorable.
so for BBBB, i don't think you want it in your opening hand, much less without dark rituals.
2 main-reasons not to run Wastelands:Quote:
Originally Posted by bracer028
- It is the only source of land-hate we run, thats kinda random
- consistency! hymn, gatekeeper and the new obliterator just love only swamps
1. That's really no reason. There are several decks that have only 4 Wastelands as mana-denial, and do not have the additional benefit of Hymn.
2. Hymn and Gatekeeper function fine with an 18 swamp,4 wasteland build. And the new Obliterator isn't worth cutting Wastelands for.
In fact, it might be better to cut out swamps to include Tomb of Yawgmoth to turn on those random Wastelands you do end up drawing.
Nah, that would just make your mana worse overall. If you rely on Tomb and it gets wasted, you're pretty hosed. Also, using Wastes defensively kind of sucks.
I disagree. I actually think Gatekeeper, Hymn and Obliterator ARE worth cutting Wasteland for. Without Sinkhole or Stifle to supplement it, Wasteland hurts you about as often as it helps you.
The two main problems I see with the list are Innocent Blood, and possibly too much discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
Innocent Blood was really only worthwhile when playing Persecutor. It's a dead card far too often. I do think the deck gains significant benefit from the speed Dark Ritual provides. No, I don't think turn one Ritual, Duress, Hymn is the ideal play exceot against combo.
A turn one Ritual + Duress + Confidant/Bitterblossom is awesome though.
So is a turn one Duress to take out your opponents removal/counter, followed by a turn two Ritual, Obliterator is solid. So is a turn one Gatekeeper when on the play and your opponent just dropped a Lackey. Turn one Nighthawk (or even Hyppe) is solid.
Here's my suggestion...
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Go for the Throat
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mental Misstep
2 Smother
2 Bitterblossom/Hypnotic Specter
2 Umezawa's Jitte
20 Swamp
I really like Mental Mistep as a two of. It's basically a FoW that every color has access to. It counters opposing Missteps. And most importantly, it doesn't cause card disadvantage like FoW did. Losing one extra life is well worth that trade off.
Also, with slower decks making a comeback in legacy, Hyppe seems ripe to make a comeback. Yes, it's often targeted by counters/removal. But I would usually rather my opponent use up their counters/removal on a Hyppe, rather than on an Obliterator or Nighthawk.
It would be nice to squeeze in a single Volrath's Stronghold somewhere as well.
The cards that I play two-three copies of are all cards that I would prefer not to see more than one copy of per game atleast against certain matchups.
Hi, I'm new here, but I've been reading this place for a long time.
Here is the list I'm playing :
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tombstalker
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
3 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
2 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
20 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
First thing, no Bob. I've always prefered Arena to Obscur Confidant, especially as I'm playing Tombstalker.
Again, no Bitterblossom. I'm running a list with a lot of lifeloss, and I had to cut it.
My metagame is mostly combo, this is why I run a lot of discard.
Obliterator is really, really strong against aggro, but is worthless against control, as he doesn't have any kind of protection.
I'm starting to think about Porcelain Legionnaire to fill the two mana creature slot, as he seem really strong with any equipment.
Also, Lashwrithe need to be tested, I think. It's a creature on it's own at least. It may be a little expensive, though.
You've got a lot of removal. Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, Thoughtseize, Dismember and Go For the Throat and Jitte can all perform this role. Because of that and the lack of Bobs, I would strongly suggest running 3 or 4 Shriekmaw in place of the spot removal. Shriekmaw + Ritual is a fantastic combination that's usually avoided because of the 5 CMC, but his versatility, evasion (good with equipment) and CA when you can cast him off a Ritual or off the extra lands drawn from Arena make him a solid pick.