[Deck] Elves Combo

You run 4 Living Wish. If you're going off fully- which implies that your opponent doesn't have counters anyway- they certainly won't be able to stop all of them unless they're sititng on CB-Top at 2. In which case, again, why are you able to combo off at all. In that scenario you just try to use GSZ and dorks to beat down, hopefully getting a Kamahl into play. It's worth noting btw that GSZ is way better against CB-Top and Chalice than Pact would.

I often cast a second Regal Force, but that's 1 from a Wish and 1 main.

If I understand the VV plan correctly, there's no Buried Alive involved. It's just a card that happens to be good against a lot of strategies that beat the deck naturally.

@TheInfamousBearAssassin- Just test it homie. You'll see what I mean. You can hypothesize all you want but I've done it a million times and I've never died to it. I've even pulled it off against zoo a few times. The likelihood that they have double removal is actually pretty low. On top of that, they will use a removal spell on heritage as soon as they see that you have it and 3 guys out, so you won't even have cast pact yet. If they have EE out, you'll obviously see it, and won't pact.

So that takes care of all your scenarios right? It's VERY easy to play around. Trust me, you'll love it. GSZ is just summoner's pact with training wheels until you figure out how to play pact. Once you figure out how to not die, you'll never go back.

@Absolutflipz- VV only needs 6 slots, 3 VV, 3 buried alive. The prog plan is great, but prog dies to both perish and wrath. And in elves, VV effectively only dies to swords/path because he is sooo easy to recur. VV also offers more than one blocker against aggro decks, which is huge, not to mention recurring blockers. Prog is great but all prog is is a clock. VV is a clock, recurring attackers, and recurring blockers, with haste. So the main advantages over Prog is multiple blockers and haste.

Also, the likliehood that they counter wish, you don't have another one, AND they will still survive your army of elves the following turn is so low that it's not even worth addressing. And if somehow does become a real problem in the first game, just put him main in G2.

Oh, wow, somehow I missed the Buried Alive part of that plan.

Opening up a deck that runs 13 lands to start with to Wasteland and Stifle seems like a very poor decision. And if those cards aren't prevalent in your metagame, it bears asking what you need to bring Vengevines in against. If that's the case then I would definitely rather run NO. Even if the Vengevine plan were stronger, it's not worth opening yourself up to mana denial for. I'd also want to run a Terastadon in that case to bring in, since I'd always be worried about drawing the Progenitus.

k2:

I'm not trying to be a dick, but "just test it out" is and always has been a terrible argument. There are a hundred variations of a hundred decks in this format, and I don't have time to test them all even if I wanted to. No one does. You need the ability to convey why something is true of a deck or a strategy or a card in order to have meaningful discussions on this forum.

So far, your argument for why Pact-Archdruid is good seems to be that no one has ever had double removal against you. I don't accept that. You have no way to prevent them from having double removal. And if a Zoo player Bolts your Heritage Druid when you already have three elves out, then you're playing against bad players and I don't consider that relevant testing.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

@TheInfamousBearAssassin- Just test it homie. You'll see what I mean. You can hypothesize all you want but I've done it a million times and I've never died to it. I've even pulled it off against zoo a few times. The likelihood that they have double removal is actually pretty low. On top of that, they will use a removal spell on heritage as soon as they see that you have it and 3 guys out, so you won't even have cast pact yet. If they have EE out, you'll obviously see it, and won't pact.

So that takes care of all your scenarios right? It's VERY easy to play around. Trust me, you'll love it. GSZ is just summoner's pact with training wheels until you figure out how to play pact. Once you figure out how to not die, you'll never go back.

@Absolutflipz- VV only needs 6 slots, 3 VV, 3 buried alive. The prog plan is great, but prog dies to both perish and wrath. And in elves, VV effectively only dies to swords/path because he is sooo easy to recur. VV also offers more than one blocker against aggro decks, which is huge, not to mention recurring blockers. Prog is great but all prog is is a clock. VV is a clock, recurring attackers, and recurring blockers, with haste. So the main advantages over Prog is multiple blockers and haste.

Also, the likliehood that they counter wish, you don't have another one, AND they will still survive your army of elves the following turn is so low that it's not even worth addressing. And if somehow does become a real problem in the first game, just put him main in G2.

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I don't see why you would only run 3 Buried Alive and 3 Vengevine...that seems completely suboptimal to 4 Buried Alive, 3 Vengevine.

You say that Progenitus dies to Perish and Wrath, but so does Vengevine. Sure, Vengevine can be recurred, but this slows down the process even further. And while Vengevine may be chumped, StP'ed, delayed by non-exiling removal...Progenitus cannot be touched by any such spot removal and cannot be blocked.

Vengevine providing more chump blockers? If Elves has anything, it's tons of dudes on the board to block. You're also obviously not in a very good spot if you're having to block with your Vengevines.

@Bear- Valid point. I guess I've just been on this thread for a long time and the same arguments always come up and I've made them a zillion times, then the person starts agreeing with me, then another person brings up the same thing and it's just like...sigh... I didn't mean test my build, I meant test the card. I don't think it's crazy to suggest testing a card. I've been away for months now and I look forward to getting home next month so I can FINALLY post some tourney results and back up my points with results. I admit that it's very hard to agree with someone who hasn't proven themselves yet.

My argument is not that no one has had it yet, it is that it extremely unlikely that a scenario will come up where you will die to pact and not see it coming. Could you suggest some?

@Abso- if they wrath, there is nothing on the board, so you recur VV and win on an empty board. Elves have dudes, but you don't want to chump your dudes. You want to keep your guys on the board. There isn't really any advantage to prog since in the scenarios where VV would have a hard time getting through, they will kill you faster than prog will anyway.

What kind of aggro deck can stand up to 3-4 vines attacking/blocking and recurring? I sure can't think of any. So in what scenarios is prog. going to result in a win where VV wont?


Edit: Just noticed this but Bear you def don't want 4 wish. 3 is optimal.

The problem is that if you add the addendum about seeing it coming- and I would suggest that a surprise Jitte could always be lurking in the wings, or a Burning Wish from a combo deck- but even if you see it coming, that turns Pact into a dead card. Whereas GSZ would be rock-solid in that position. With GSZ you test the waters for removal and play through if you run into it, you don't just have to sit and hope to draw a Glimpse.

If they have removal they can kill whatever you get with GSZ, so how is that different?

The whole point of being a good player is you don't need to test the waters if you can predict it. You should know which decks will have Jitte or fire and ice. (fire and ice is extremely uncommon). And Jitte is not relevant to the argument because either it is on the field and you see it, or it is in their hand and they cannot have it active on turn 2 or turn 3, so Jitte cannot surprise you on a T2 pact.

Them killing whatever you get with GSZ can't cause you to lose. It also adds 1 rather than 4 mana to your total cost. Saving 3 mana seems like a big deal.

Also they can totally have active Jitte on turn 3 with Noble Hierarch.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Them killing whatever you get with GSZ can't cause you to lose. It also adds 1 rather than 4 mana to your total cost. Saving 3 mana seems like a big deal.

Also they can totally have active Jitte on turn 3 with Noble Hierarch.

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Adding 3 mana the following turn is very different than adding 1 mana on T2.

What decks run hierarch and jitte? Also, if they have access to 4 mana on T3 and you think they have jitte, this would be a "see it coming" scenario

If they have removal, and you see it and don't cast pact, vs try with GSZ, you don't waste any mana since you didn't cast pact, vs wasting 1 mana, a card, and a creature, with GSZ.

The point is that if you can see it coming, pact will almost always be better. If you can't see if coming, then GSZ will be better to "test the waters" as you put it. But you are intentionally running cards to compensate for a lack of skill, then you shouldn't be trying to convince me that your deck is better.

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Adding 3 mana the following turn is very different than adding 1 mana on T2.

What decks run hierarch and jitte? Also, if they have access to 4 mana on T3 and you think they have jitte, this would be a "see it coming" scenario

If they have removal, and you see it and don't cast pact, vs try with GSZ, you don't waste any mana since you didn't cast pact, vs wasting 1 mana, a card, and a creature, with GSZ.

The point is that if you can see it coming, pact will almost always be better. If you can't see if coming, then GSZ will be better to "test the waters" as you put it. But you are intentionally running cards to compensate for a lack of skill, then you shouldn't be trying to convince me that your deck is better.

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To be fair, lots of Bant Aggro decks run Hierarch/Jitte. But Jitte shouldn't be a big issue...you should have access to Viridian Zealot and Wirewood Symbiote shines as usual here.

Symbiote is one of the more important cards in the deck and he allows you to completely blank Jitte.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

To be fair, lots of Bant Aggro decks run Hierarch/Jitte. But Jitte shouldn't be a big issue...you should have access to Viridian Zealot and Wirewood Symbiote shines as usual here.

Symbiote is one of the more important cards in the deck and he allows you to completely blank Jitte.

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Symbiote<3

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Originally Posted by k2thej

Adding 3 mana the following turn is very different than adding 1 mana on T2.

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It's actually 4 mana the following turn. It's nearly impossible for this to be a net gain. Even in your ideal scenario you're getting an Archdruid you have to keep tapped the next turn. That's not summoning sickness, that's summoning cancer.

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What decks run hierarch and jitte?

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Every deck running Jitte.

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Also, if they have access to 4 mana on T3 and you think they have jitte, this would be a "see it coming" scenario

If they have removal, and you see it and don't cast pact, vs try with GSZ, you don't waste any mana since you didn't cast pact, vs wasting 1 mana, a card, and a creature, with GSZ.

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Except you are wasting a card in that scenario. You have a card that literally does nothing. It's better to take a chance on running out a threat in that scenario, it just shouldn't be one that automatically loses you the game if they have the answer.

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The point is that if you can see it coming, pact will almost always be better. If you can't see if coming, then GSZ will be better to "test the waters" as you put it. But you are intentionally running cards to compensate for a lack of skill, then you shouldn't be trying to convince me that your deck is better.

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No, if you see it coming, Pact will do nothing. How is doing nothing better than doing something that gets answered? The latter actually removes answers from their hands so you can try other things.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

It's actually 4 mana the following turn. It's nearly impossible for this to be a net gain. Even in your ideal scenario you're getting an Archdruid you have to keep tapped the next turn. That's not summoning sickness, that's summoning cancer.



Every deck running Jitte.



Except you are wasting a card in that scenario. You have a card that literally does nothing. It's better to take a chance on running out a threat in that scenario, it just shouldn't be one that automatically loses you the game if they have the answer.



No, if you see it coming, Pact will do nothing. How is doing nothing better than doing something that gets answered? The latter actually removes answers from their hands so you can try other things.

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You two realize that you should be running both GSZ and Pact, right?

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sb:

1 Nettle Sentinel
1 Heritage Druid
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Terastadon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Viridian Shaman

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Full SB act like toolbox for wish? You wasted it for nothing! You dont need 15 targets. Trust me.
This idea is so bad.. it hurts.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

To be fair, lots of Bant Aggro decks run Hierarch/Jitte. But Jitte shouldn't be a big issue...you should have access to Viridian Zealot and Wirewood Symbiote shines as usual here.

Symbiote is one of the more important cards in the deck and he allows you to completely blank Jitte.

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symbiote does not blank gitte... remove 1 counter for symbiote and then..?! =)

No, Symbiote blanks Jitte by them never dealing combat damage. Just declare blocks and bounce a dude.

Here's the thing I don't understand; why don't people that think Pact is great run Multani's Acolyte, since they apparently never plan to pay upkeep costs anyway? I mean you run as many Elvish Visionaries as you can, why not go from 4 to 8?

I happen to think that upkeep costs exist, is the thing.



Also also re; k2: 4x Living Wish is absolutely correct. That card is amazing and I would run 5-6 if I could.

@xazzax; I could clear out 3-4 cards if I thought there was something I particularly wanted to side into, but I don't.

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Originally Posted by xazzax

Full SB act like toolbox for wish? You wasted it for nothing! You dont need 15 targets. Trust me.
This idea is so bad.. it hurts.

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Well IBA's ideas polarise a lot...
I dont have a clear opinion about if its good, but I want to spend more time thinking about it.

The thing about 4 wish and the toolbox is that you have actually a good answer to many things by t2/t3.
you cannot side in that many hate pieces nor have them in your sideboard to have access to the hate piece consistently... in addition
wish is also utitily for the combo, because heritage, wirewood and nettle are in SB, so not "dead-like" while going off.
..so by this mechanic there is an element of control added to the deck, which could make it probably overall more competitve (good combo - we agree, good aggro - we agree) .. but answers to threats... so far suboptimal at best and only in g2 and throughout the last 66 pages we saw many sidebaords and meta game discussions.
The lacking answer to other storm decks is surely a point to critisize.

Overall I think the combo strength is weakened too much, by not running pact. I don't see an issue by using pact in only "likely safe" situation or while going off. It is just the best elf and therefore I can accept it sometimes beeing dead or risky...

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Here's the thing I don't understand; why don't people that think Pact is great run Multani's Acolyte, since they apparently never plan to pay upkeep costs anyway? I mean you run as many Elvish Visionaries as you can, why not go from 4 to 8?

I happen to think that upkeep costs exist, is the thing.



Also also re; k2: 4x Living Wish is absolutely correct. That card is amazing and I would run 5-6 if I could.

@xazzax; I could clear out 3-4 cards if I thought there was something I particularly wanted to side into, but I don't.

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Alright, dude, you're just thinking about this completely wrong. On T2 you ahve 3 elves in play, 2 of which cannot attack. You activate heritage, already you are making them more useful then normal since you are essentially giving them haste, right? Then, you pact archdruid and he is in play. Assuming you didn't misplay pact, in the WORST case scenario the Archdruid functions as a Gaea's Anthem since he has to be tapped. If you have an untapper, you basically get a free gaea's anthem and then can play other dudes too, including other lords. If you have another pact (or one pact if you played the archdruid from in hand) or you have a warcaller or another archdruid, then you give all your creatures +2+2 for essentially only the 3 mana you spend on T2. Not to mention that he is also a creature if it is not the worst case scenario.

So ya he has "summoning cancer?" Who cares? You have 8 untappers in your deck AND he gives all your dudes +1+1 regardless of whether or not he is tapped. This is a great play.

@Abso- If you are running wish and 4 other tutors then you have somewhere between 6-8 tutors. that's more than enough.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

You two realize that you should be running both GSZ and Pact, right?

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Agreed