Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
First of all: thanks for your report. For me it was detailed enough as it was focused on Mogg Fanatic's performance. Although I agree with you that Fanatic is a viable option I'm not concerned about cutting SGC entirely from the deck. But this is a different story.
While reading your report two question came into my mind (reffering to the quote from here):
1st: You wrote that your impression about Maverick is that it is quite even/kinda favored for Gobs. I always found this one frustrating and nearly impossible to win. Now I was wondering what your strategy is? I couldn't read much from your report on that game, other than Mogg Fanatic being awsome. Then again I run Tarfire on this slot, which is just as good in dealing with Mother and SFM (not with Jitte though, but this has never been problematic to me).
Thus: What do you think are their most threatening cards? How do you navigate your deck around that? What is your overall strategy here?
2nd: About Ringleader, I absolutely agree. Marcello/Scatman once said that there is nothing more solid than having 33 Goblins in your MD. Don't you think Tarfire is better than Mog Fanatic, since it kills one of the most frequently played creatures in legacy: SFM?
I Know that this comparison is kinda odd since those cards do slightly different things. When reading through your report I could just as well replace every "Mogg Fanatic" with "Tarfire" without changing any result.
First towards your questions:
1.) Well you kinda got the point straight from the start.
Mogg Fanatic makes the difference, and i don't agree with you on tarfire doing the same. As we all know Sharpshooter is a house in this matchup, and you can be very sure that you're Mogg Fanatic stays the entire matchup if it doesnt have targets to shoot. In my report i wrote about stalling the game trough some Mirran Crusaders and Knight+Batterskull, which would have been very frightening with a regular Goblin list at the moment. The point that turned the game in my favour, getting me on a winning position was the shear combination of Mogg Fanatic(which i think a 4of is absolutely viable) and Sharpshooter, which made the Maverick player concede before i finished tapping all of my goblins. He gave some value to a topdecked vial at 1 too. It comes like a giant kick in the butt for the opponent if you know how to play this combo.
The point why i choose Mogg Fanatic over Tarfire is the following: Tarfire might get countered by an otherwise useless Misstep, has no synergy with vial and isnt far as devasting as an early Mogg Fanatic which sticks trough the game. Imagine the Chieftain pumps, the Gempalm incinerator which can take the Knight out of the game or negating the lifegain from Batterskull. Tarfire does nothing like that.
For the most threatening cards we might all agree that this would be Knight of the Reliquary, Mirran Crusader and Batterskull. SFM of course can be a threat if it fetches a Jitte or SOFI too. Cards like Runemother or manlands can be a pain if not dealt with immediatly, as they kind of give your opponent an unfair advantage trough the game. In my 2nd game I had no doubt about pyrokin' his 1st turn runemother even with relevant pitch. The most important thing is that you have more men on the field than him and filling different tasks to begin with. Installing an early Warchief or Chieftain rather than utility like Matron or Ringleader or focus on outtempoing him with Mogg Fanatic/Mana denial. As soon as there is a Knight on the table you can cut the denial and need to focus on overwhelming him with lots of Goblins before the Knight gets too huge and/or equipped while other friends are joining him.
2.) I think i answered the question about Tarfire enough, even tough i would like the option of fetching it. But so far i am happy with the bodies and i dont need additional removal, as fetching Stingscourger, Tin street or just Gempalm does enough here. I would rather have a single Fodder Launch when splashing black as it acts as a Dismember and Goblin Grenade to the dome. This card is very understated i think, but its far better
than Tarfire.
After all i think Goblins became even better in the current metagame, people just do it wrong.
I like perish as a sideboard option but it dont think Warren Weirding and Perish justify a black splash. You never wanna be wasted yourself and green is the far better color now.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
2nd: About Ringleader, I absolutely agree. Marcello/Scatman once said that there is nothing more solid than having 33 Goblins in your MD. Don't you think Tarfire is better than Mog Fanatic, since it kills one of the most frequently played creatures in legacy: SFM?
The 1st thing I'd do with that list is swapping Fanatics for Tartfire. I'm testing both right now, and want to figure out which one suits me more. I'm more on the side of Tarfire, but want to know how many times attacking and blocking with Fanatic is worth more thant the extra point of damage, that can kill Stoneforge and ALL Merfolk lords...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThoSha
The point why i choose Mogg Fanatic over Tarfire is the following: Tarfire might get countered by an otherwise useless Misstep, has no synergy with vial and isnt far as devasting as an early Mogg Fanatic which sticks trough the game. Imagine the Chieftain pumps, the Gempalm incinerator which can take the Knight out of the game or negating the lifegain from Batterskull. Tarfire does nothing like that.
Fanatic is countered by Misstep too, since Vial is almos never @1.
Gempalm + Incinerator does the exact same dmg as Tarfire (2).
Fanatic + Sharpshooter does the same dmg as Tarfire + Sharpshooter (3).
Tarfire does negate Batterskull, by killing the Stoneforge. We just can't let them reach 5 mana, ad swing. Not that hard.
I can agree on the Chieftain thing though. In my testing I want to figure out how many times it is relevant.
Nevertheless, I really appreciated your report. Thanks for that.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I've found Mental Misstep to be absolutely terrible to chain into with ringleader.
Might it be better to be more explosive by jumping straight to Warren Instigator off Chrome Mox? I think that Kiki Jiki and Wort are necessary as additional sources of card advantage to offset the disadvantage of Chrome Mox and the increased velocity that Instigator brings to the deck (your hand depletes faster).
//Lands [22-24]
2 Chrome Mox
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
5 Mountain
//Core [26]:
- 1 Siege-Gang Commander
//Others [10-12]:
3 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Shattering Spree
Some questions: How many red sources do we need? Counting Mox as a red source I have 16 red and 9 black sources.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
The 1st thing I'd do with that list is swapping Fanatics for Tartfire. I'm testing both right now, and want to figure out which one suits me more. I'm more on the side of Tarfire, but want to know how many times attacking and blocking with Fanatic is worth more thant the extra point of damage, that can kill Stoneforge and ALL Merfolk lords...
Fanatic is countered by Misstep too, since Vial is almos never @1.
Gempalm + Incinerator does the exact same dmg as Tarfire (2).
Fanatic + Sharpshooter does the same dmg as Tarfire + Sharpshooter (3).
Tarfire does negate Batterskull, by killing the Stoneforge. We just can't let them reach 5 mana, ad swing. Not that hard.
I can agree on the Chieftain thing though. In my testing I want to figure out how many times it is relevant.
Nevertheless, I really appreciated your report. Thanks for that.
I can understand that you are sceptical about Mogg Fanatic since he isn't cool anymore since M10 changed him. But i dont really get your points here.
What do you mean with Gempalm+Incinerator does the exact damage as Tarfire? My Gempalms go from 1 to 7 in an average game. Mogg Fanatic+Sharpshooter lets you get a nasty jitte'd Double Striker, a Mishra, Merfolk lords, a Mutavault or anything X/3 before blockers are declared or you can also kill Stoneforge Mystic with that, no problem.
About Batterskull i wouldn't worry too much because we have sideboard hate anyway. I dont even mind too much about equipment in general, since we can just get rid of the bodies in many situations.
So in summary for Tarfire we have:
+Fetchable
+2dmg Pinpoint removal
+Synergy with Ringleader
For Mogg Fanatic:
+Combat Tricks
+Synergy with Sharpshooter, Ringleader, Piledriver, Gempalm Incinerator, Chieftain, Aether Vial
+Fetchable
+an addional Body&Clock
+1dmg Pinpoint removal
For me its not quite possible to convince me for Tarfire in this spot.
Dont feed the Goyf. :P
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
So I inspired by Tosha and took 1st place in little 13 man tournament
4*wasteland
4*wooded foothills
4*Scalding tarn
3*Rishadan Port
2*Taiga
5*Mountain
25 core
-1*Siege-Gang Commander
4*Gemapl
3*Mogg Fanatic
2*Goblin Chieftain
1*Stingscourger
1*Tinstreet Hooligan
1*Goblin Sharpshooter
1*Goblin Pyromancer
SB:
3*Pyroblast
1*Ancient Grudge
3*Krosan Grip
4*Pyrokinesis
4*Leyline of the Void
1.Dredge 2-0
2.Merfolk 2-1
3.Merfolk 1-2
4.BG rock 2-1
top4
UW control(almost standart deck, only wastelands, counterspells and acenstrall visions) 2-1
Merfolk(guy from third round) 1-0 we splited so we played only one
All in all fanatics were good and keep them for another tournament...
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThoSha
I like perish as a sideboard option but it dont think Warren Weirding and Perish justify a black splash. You never wanna be wasted yourself and green is the far better color now.
I disagree with you here. Sometimes you just need WW.
You may be right about R/G splash though.
Goblins will always be a red deck. Amon Amarth said it perfectly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amon Amarth
you aren't a true polychromatic deck. You're only playing 2 Taiga and 2 Badlands and a bunch of fetches. Just fetch for Mountains when appropriate.
I use 1 swamp along with 4 Bloodstained Mire and 2 Badlands because I also can't stand having my lands destroyed.
Vandalize, I like your list. No love for Wort, Boggart Auntie though? Gotta say that I haven't been disappointed to see her in my hand yet.
In what meta would you run Cabal Therapy over Mental Misstep. I have my playset and would love to use them but I doubt my ability to significantly neuter an opponent's hand at my current level of experience against such a wide array of deck types...
I'm curious about Siege-Gang Commander falling out of favor amongst some. Don't think I'll ever understand that. The reason people cringe when they hear "Mountain, Lackey, Go" is because of SGC! Playing him turn 4 cause of Goblin Warchief or swinging for 11 cause of Goblin Chieftain is a lot better than having a 3rd or 4th Mogg Fanatic. You can even use him to make your Fanatic sac for 2 damage instead of 1 :tongue:
Yuri, congrats!
What was your experience with Goblin Pyromancer? He seems terrible. I'd be interested to hear how he helped you.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I'm a huge fan of Wort. I run one in my SB or MD of R/b Goblins. It is such a bomb, especially against Landstill-esque control decks. Recurring pretty much anything gives you some pretty insane inevitability and it's nuts against against all the removal light decks. Oh, hi, Warren Weirding number 5 or was it 6...? LOL YES IM CHEATING! Or even recurring Mogg War-Marshall is awesome.
Currently I'm testing out a 2nd Sharpshooter main. Sharpshooter is insane versus midrange decks. Against some decks it's a hard lock, a 1-sided Goblin-y Wrath of God. I actually don't think I've ever played with more than 1 Sharpshooter ever in Legacy.
I don't think I would ever run less than 2 Siege-Gang Commanders. He is just too good late game and is an out versus things like Moat or Ensnaring Bridge. And he throws Goblins at people. What a boss.
Oh, and he is "OK" to drop off a Lackey.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Pyromancer is overrun on legs, he is tutorable and very situational yet he gave one or two victories yesterday...
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
A guy playing in a SCG Open today was playing a Rb goblin deck without Warchief and with Chieftains instead and WInstigators AND Tarfires. It raped NO RUG. I get the no Warcheif move too. If you're running so many RR cc dudes having the 1cc reduction isn't that amazing. And when you're running Winstigator you don't need to cast as many bodies anyway, so you're free to do without Warchief.
Cool.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrw1985
A guy playing in a SCG Open today was playing a Rb goblin deck without Warchief and with Chieftains instead and WInstigators AND Tarfires. It raped NO RUG. I get the no Warcheif move too. If you're running so many RR cc dudes having the 1cc reduction isn't that amazing. And when you're running Winstigator you don't need to cast as many bodies anyway, so you're free to do without Warchief.
Cool.
Where can we find that?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I got another tournament report coming up.
Finished 4-1 with Goblins in a 22 tournament today.
List is the same as before:
//Manabase
5 Mountains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Taiga
2 Chrome Mox
//Core
-2 Siege Gang Commander
//Flex
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
4 Mogg Fanatic
SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Red Elemental Blast
Round 1: Vs UW Landstill 2-1
Im too tired to go into details, but it was a classic landstill list without Stoneforge.
He played 8 manlands in form of Factory, Faerie Conclave and Celestial Colonnade. I simply won both games because i had more threats than he had counters, nothing more to add. G2 he fatesealed me with Jace and wrathed pretty good. Third game same as game 1. I sided in some REBs.
1-0
Round 2: Vs Merfolk 2-0
I win the dice and lead with a Mogg Fanatic. He starts with cursecatcher.
2nd turn i play a topdecked vial and a 2nd Mogg. Shooting at cursecatcher and swing for 1. 2nd turn he goes with mutavault and Silvergill. My turn i waste his Mutavault and assassinate his Adept. Next turn he is screwed on mana which i could abouse to overrun him the next turns.
Sided in Pyrokinesis, REB, Sharpshooter, sided out Lackeys, tin street and stingscourger.
The second game he mulled to 5, gave me 2 cursecatcher and then conceded because of manascrew again.
2-0
Round 3: Vs GW Maverick 2-0
First game he starts with GSZ into Dryad Arbor which i Fanatic' out of vial.
2nd turn tarmogoyf, and I go for Winstigator.
Knight follows up and on my side Matron and Piledriver. Goyf stays kinda small and is no real trouble and the Knight stays in my Gempalm range, so i burn him apart. He plays a Sylvan Library and finds nothing until i overrun him.
Sided in some Pyrokinesis, 1 Crypt and Sharpshooter ofc.
Out: lackeys.
Game 2 he starts with Runemother which i Knesis' with Knesis pitch.
I start with vial again+Crypt and ride my curve to Ringleader while he beats me up with a 3/4 Goyf. Another Goyf + Scryb Ranger.
Ringleader finds me lots of answers like Sharpshooter, Warchief and Gempalm incinerator. My field is getting bigger so i start sharpshooting his Scryb Ranger and Gempalm his one Goyf. He plays a Maze of Ith. I dont find a Wasteland and keep building up with Matrons, Ringleaders and a Piledriver. I draw Port and go for alpha strike. Crypt stayed until the end of the game, but he didnt draw Knight or Terravore. Fine with me.
3-0
Round 4: Punishing Patriot 1-2
This matchup was devastating but since we were the only 2 players unbeaten so far i couldnt dodge this one.
Game 1 i start with Fanatic while he mulls to 5. Fanatic goes a long way until he finds a Stoneforge mystic in the lategame while countering all my other threats. Mystic finds Batterskull, i play a 2nd Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator finds Mystic, lol. He hardcasts his Batterskull next turn and i have Tin street hooligan and Stingscourger left to handle this. Piledriver joins the fun and i finish him.
In: 3 Ancient Grudge and 3 Surgical Extractions for Punishing fire(i know that was fail, but i was tired..), out lackeys and winstigators
Game 2 it looked kind of the other way. He starts with a T1 Lavamancer, i try to cast a Fanatic which he forces. Lavamancer gets followed up by Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire(gnah..) and SFM+Skull. Oh wait and there was also jace. gg
Third Round i keep a kinda odd hand with 3 lands, Chrome Mox, Matron, Ringleader, Surgical Extraction.
In short this was happening: T2 SFM finding Batterskull, no punishing fires but Lavamancer again + a friendly Vendillion Clique who took my Ringleader and let me draw a shitty Taiga. I drew like land, land, chrome, land, aether vial. Thx deck.
3-1
Round 5: Vs Deadguy Ale 2-0
First game he started with Runemother, and lucky me drew a Mogg Fanatic.
I kinda have this opening pretty often. But well, he follows up with Aether Vial, so do I and waste his only Scrubland. He lays a fetch and does nothing. I put a chrome mox and a Warchief into play. He fetches another Basic and Vindicates my vial, end of Turn bob showed up. I topdeck another Fanatic like a Champ and go with Warchief and shooting bob. He follows up with Vampire Nighthawk. I go for Matron into Ringleader and pass my turn. Nighthawk stalls around. Next turn Ringleader gets online giving me 4 fine men to work with(i think that one was Warchief, Piley, Gempalm and Ringleader). I burn his Nighthawk with Gempalm, he plays a Stillmoon Cavalier. Next Ringleader brought me another full set of goblins including 2 Mogg Fanatics. He was pretty pissed there, but who wouldn't.
I sided in 2 Pyrokinesis and sharpshooter, out 3 lackeys.
Game 2 he has a solid start with a vial followed up by SFM next turn.
I started with Montain, Lackey, go.
He fetches batterskull and i throw a pyrokinesis in SFMs face. Lackey connects and brings a Chieftain, which eats a Swords to Plowshares next turn.
His plan was to achieve 5 mana for hardcasting batterskull which i fucked up nicely with 2 wastelands. He was sticking at 4 lands and a fetch and did just random stuff like bringing a jitte, next turn vindicates my piledriver etc.
I simply won because of threat density and never saw a Batterskull at all.
After the game I asked him why he never played the batterskull, and he said his manabase was all fetches except of 6 lands from which i wasted 2, so it was impossible to get batterskull online. I lol'ed and got my Misty Rainforest as a price for my efforts.
4-1
Too lazy for random notes now, but Mogg Fanatic, Tin street Hooligan and Stingscourger were awesome. Ancient Grudge too, but we know that by now.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Hey fellow Warchiefs,
after 3 "big" tournaments (~70 players, ~90 players and ~180 players) with the deck lately I have drawn conclusions which I want to share with you. I have been observing the deck's performance carefully in playtesting and on tournaments and I can say that I have covered every deck of the gauntlet today. Here we go:
Vial Goblins frequently lose game 1 if your opponent's opening handisn't totally screwed. That's because most decks, as they are now, are very well prepared for Goblins. That's not necessarily because they actually mind Goblins when they are building the deck (in fact: Goblins don't play anymore role in most metas), but the maindeck strategies of most decks are simply that much stronger than ours. Right now we are in the middle of doing what we did for the past 12 month: tuning our deck (i.e. the flex slots) to compete in the meta. While other decks don't even have specific hate dedicated to Goblins (like blue elemental blast, Jitte, Jitte and E. Plague) in their 75, we face serious problems with building our SB. Oftentimes I want to have a 30-cards-board to be properly prepared for the meta.
As our deck is designed now I don't see Goblins competing in the meta. Many decks run cards that have such an huge impact on the game that they can win the game right on the spot. In addition those cards are cheap in manacosts and easy to "spalsh" since they don't need the slightest synergy with the rest of the deck. I'm talking about Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Jace 2.0, Dark Confidant and Vendillion Clique. Goblins are lacking those cards. Goblins have always been profiting from synergies. Those synergies are way too time- and manaconsuming compared with what other decks have. This comes down to: Goblins is lacking cheap and gamebreaking cards. Meaning: cards that are "unfair" (as they say).
I am (after over 4 years of playing the deck) for the first time absolutely sure that this is not the right time to play the deck. In my oppinion there are only few possible scenarios for the deck in the future:
(1) design the deck in a way that it is the absolute "anti-meta" deck. Meaning: It must be able to reliably defeat "modern" strategies. This must for sure mean that we need to throw away the whole "core-cards" concept because it is not strong enough to serve that purpose. A little more poethical: we must become a total "answer"-deck, cause our time being the "question" is over.
(2) add the cards named above to our deck. Possible examples would be: Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf. This would (of course) mean that we have to drop all those Goblin-cards that rely on the "synergy-factor" too much (like Ringleader, Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator).
(3) design the deck with a manacurve ending at cc3. Nobody wants such manaintense cards as Ringleader, Wort and Siege.Gang Commander if cheating them into play is possible in only 30% of all games. Then again we face the problems that our Goblins at cc1-3 are very weak on power and toughness. This could imply that we are better of with following a merfolk-like strategy with many lord-effects.
However, these are my thoughts on the deck. Since I simply don't want to go any of the 3 ways mentioned above I will drop the deck for a while now. I wish you guys fun with the deck and I am looking forward to see it's development.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
Hey fellow Warchiefs,
after 3 "big" tournaments (~70 players, ~90 players and ~180 players) with the deck lately I have drawn conclusions which I want to share with you. I have been observing the deck's performance carefully in playtesting and on tournaments and I can say that I have covered every deck of the gauntlet today. Here we go:
Vial Goblins frequently lose game 1 if your opponent's opening handisn't totally screwed. That's because most decks, as they are now, are very well prepared for Goblins. That's not necessarily because they actually mind Goblins when they are building the deck (in fact: Goblins don't play anymore role in most metas), but the maindeck strategies of most decks are simply that much stronger than ours. Right now we are in the middle of doing what we did for the past 12 month: tuning our deck (i.e. the flex slots) to compete in the meta. While other decks don't even have specific hate dedicated to Goblins (like blue elemental blast, Jitte, Jitte and E. Plague) in their 75, we face serious problems with building our SB. Oftentimes I want to have a 30-cards-board to be properly prepared for the meta.
As our deck is designed now I don't see Goblins competing in the meta. Many decks run cards that have such an huge impact on the game that they can win the game right on the spot. In addition those cards are cheap in manacosts and easy to "spalsh" since they don't need the slightest synergy with the rest of the deck. I'm talking about Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Jace 2.0, Dark Confidant and Vendillion Clique. Goblins are lacking those cards. Goblins have always been profiting from synergies. Those synergies are way too time- and manaconsuming compared with what other decks have. This comes down to: Goblins is lacking cheap and gamebreaking cards. Meaning: cards that are "unfair" (as they say).
I am (after over 4 years of playing the deck) for the first time absolutely sure that this is not the right time to play the deck. In my oppinion there are only few possible scenarios for the deck in the future:
(1) design the deck in a way that it is the absolute "anti-meta" deck. Meaning: It must be able to reliably defeat "modern" strategies. This must for sure mean that we need to throw away the whole "core-cards" concept because it is not strong enough to serve that purpose. A little more poethical: we must become a total "answer"-deck, cause our time being the "question" is over.
(2) add the cards named above to our deck. Possible examples would be: Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf. This would (of course) mean that we have to drop all those Goblin-cards that rely on the "synergy-factor" too much (like Ringleader, Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator).
(3) design the deck with a manacurve ending at cc3. Nobody wants such manaintense cards as Ringleader, Wort and Siege.Gang Commander if cheating them into play is possible in only 30% of all games. Then again we face the problems that our Goblins at cc1-3 are very weak on power and toughness. This could imply that we are better of with following a merfolk-like strategy with many lord-effects.
However, these are my thoughts on the deck. Since I simply don't want to go any of the 3 ways mentioned above I will drop the deck for a while now. I wish you guys fun with the deck and I am looking forward to see it's development.
Even tough i recently had great success with my own version of the deck I agree completly with your post. I myself was wondering if a Grim Lavamancer would be great in Sideboard against SFMs, but dropped it because of the synergy factor. The main problem the deck has is equally its biggest strength, the synergy. Add a part and have nothing, add many parts and overrun anything. I saw myself struggling alot after having 2 lords StPed or countered while a big goofy is standing in front of me that functions just like that.
And thanks for posting the idea of dropping the whole core thing, since its a big bunch of bullsh**. Some people even considered that i am an alcoholic for dropping 2 Siege Gang Commanders for more deck consistency. Too bad those guys performed just bad theirself for following an old and outdated construct here. Bringing Mogg Fanatic back was a huge strike against the meta, but i agree that the deck cant be finished yet. I also agree on Vendillion Clique being a pain, since the only thing you dont want is getting your alpha strike fucked up by a blue discard spell.. thats just grose. If anyone would like to share ideas about a new "core" concept, i am in to argue over that.
So my first guess as said would be Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard, who is with me on that?
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
E tu, GoboLord? Abdicating the throne? Leaving us Sourcers without a Goblin King? You'll be back. But before you go, I have a few bones to pick with you about your latest post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
Vial Goblins frequently lose game 1 if your opponent's opening handisn't totally screwed.
I thought this remark was awfully presumptuous, so I looked through my tournament results from the last month and found the following: Of the 25 matches I've played with a 4 Mental Misstep maindeck build...
Overall Record
16-8-1. 66% win rate.
Matches where I've lost G1
11/25 44%
Matches I've lost when I also lost G1
6/11 55%
I'm winning G1 56% of the time. When I lose G1 (44% of the time) I still win the match 45% of the time. Now these results aren't from huge tournaments, but the store I play at is a very competitive environment with many very serious players, so I consider all my wins well earned.
Basically, I don't agree that Goblins can only win G1 if your opponent is screwed. I wouldn't be winning G1 56% of the time if that was the case. And when I do lose G1 I manage to win the next two games 45% of the time, so Goblins is still game post-board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
I am (after over 4 years of playing the deck) for the first time absolutely sure that this is not the right time to play the deck. In my oppinion there are only few possible scenarios for the deck in the future:
(1) design the deck in a way that it is the absolute "anti-meta" deck. Meaning: It must be able to reliably defeat "modern" strategies. This must for sure mean that we need to throw away the whole "core-cards" concept because it is not strong enough to serve that purpose. A little more poethical: we must become a total "answer"-deck, cause our time being the "question" is over.
I agree with you that Goblins is no longer a "question" deck that needs solving because MM is clearly a great solution to our 1-drop "questions". But just because it's no longer a Question doesn't mean it has to become an Answer. When I read others' tournament reports on Goblins I often see game desciptions that go "Goblins does what it does and I get there". This is the basis of the deck. Those Core cards you talked about are the powerhouses they are specifically because they allow the cheating/card-advantage engines to run. And even though players know that MMing a Vial or Swordsing a Lackey is a good play that doesn't mean the deck is unplayable anymore. Goblins is still a threat against Zoo, Bant, NO RUG, Team America and whatnot. It can still beat control pretty easily. Stoneblade is rough, but winnable. The only decks it is really weak to are combo still, but aside from Hive Mind combo is leaving the format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
(2) add the cards named above to our deck. Possible examples would be: Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf. This would (of course) mean that we have to drop all those Goblin-cards that rely on the "synergy-factor" too much (like Ringleader, Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator).
Clearly, this isn't the solution. We're not Merfolk. Our creatures have actual synergies aside from islandwalk and pumps. It's true that those 4 cards represent the best creatures in the format, but they won't fit in Goblins. The sad fact is that if we want better creatures, WotC has to print them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoboLord
(3) design the deck with a manacurve ending at cc3. Nobody wants such manaintense cards as Ringleader, Wort and Siege.Gang Commander if cheating them into play is possible in only 30% of all games. Then again we face the problems that our Goblins at cc1-3 are very weak on power and toughness. This could imply that we are better of with following a merfolk-like strategy with many lord-effects.
However, these are my thoughts on the deck. Since I simply don't want to go any of the 3 ways mentioned above I will drop the deck for a while now. I wish you guys fun with the deck and I am looking forward to see it's development.
Now you know that's not going to happen. The power of the Vial comes from activating for Matron followed by activating for Ringleader. The Card Advantage brought by Ringleader is what wins late games. Having Lords doesn't matter because our lords are too expensive, and giving everything +1/+1 is only really good when they have islandwalk also.
I Goblins the best deck? No. Does it have the potential to be the Best Deck? No. But it works. It's fun. And you can totally win with it on any given day. And that's why I've always enjoyed it.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
About winning percentages: I'm not making things up here. Here are my statistics (from notes of 2 tournaments):
Number of matches (b-o-3): 13
Number of games: 31
Lost games in total: 20/31
Lost pre-board: 10/13
Lost matches when I lost G1: 9/10
However, I didn't play Mental Misstep in my maindeck yet. This might be "future-option#4": play jrw/Jon's decklists - probably the most satisfying option.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I'm gonna go with Jon on this one. Christian, you have 8 times as much experience with this deck as me and I do not doubt what you say but my time with Goblins has been overwhelmingly positive. So has Thosha and Yuri. It may just be that Goblins is better as a sleeper in a small tournament now. No one plans a sideboard with you in mind and half the people just can't pilot their deck as well as a well practiced Goblin player.
I am actually more confidant in game 1 than in any other game in a match. Having 4 Mental Misstep has perfect synergy with our mana denial. Their hand won't be kept unless it has a turn 1 play or answer and 2 lands (at least that's what I look for). Keeping a hand with MM and Wasteland/Port typically keeps them behind the entire game. MM is sometimes a dead card, but when it's good it's great.
And I don't think your time with Goblins is done. You're screenname is GoboLord for Christ's sake. Now you just aren't exclusively a Goblins player.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
This is great. Time for some real discussion about the viability of Goblins in the face of the modern bomb creatures and MM. I feel that Lackey, Instigator, Piledriver, Matron, and Ringleader are still broken (enough) to be competitive, but I am ready to question everything else about the deck, including Vial.
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that another 'tribal synergy' Vial deck, Merfolk, also seems to be on a decline in power (and this in turn makes Goblins even weaker).
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I played the following list on the Germany National Championship and I was completely stomped :(
2 Rishadan Port
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 AEther Vial
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Warren Weirding
1 Badlands
4 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
M1 Bant 0-2:
G1 I start with Vial, he forces. Then Hierarch - NO - Prog.
G2 I start with Vial, he forces. Then Hierarch - NO - Prog. At least I had WW on the hand, but he fetches for Arbor.
0-1
M2 Belcher 0-2:
He starts, plays 12 Tokens. GG
I start, in his Turn he comboes into Belcher.
0-2
M3 GW Maverick 1-2:
I dont remember exactly what happens. First game he spams the board with Thrun, Knights, Mother and Batterskull. 2nd game i can overwhelm him, thanks to removal. G3 I lost against Thrun with Batterskull.
M4 Merfolk 0-2
Basically in both games he can counter my stuff and kill me with Commander who flys over my lonely Piledriver.
M5 2-1 UW Landstill
First game took 30mins, because I have some dudes + SGC, chumping his Batterskull and sac. Eventually he plays Jace. 2and3 are quick games, overwhelming him with Piledrivers and tapping his Mishras.
1-4
M6 I dont remember the matchup, but I won.
2-4
The conclusion I drew is the same as Gobolords. This deck plays to fair compared to the I-Win Button Cards the other decks are running. Until the meta changes back to heavy merfolk or Recruiter gets unbanned, Ill dismiss the deck.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I played my rbg list in the Philippine Legacy Open (7rounds) with a 5-2 record and finished 15th out of 90 plus players. Here's my list:
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 AEther Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogwar Marshall
2 Warren Weirding
1 Tin Street hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpsooter
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 LOTV
SB: 3 COTV
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Extirpate
I beat Merfolk, NO Rug. UW Control, Maverick, High Tide and lost to Equipped based soul sister and another NO Rug.
Conclusion: I remember only 2 players piloting gobs in this event, I think with the meta here in our country GOBLINS is still a viable deck. Yes as of now we dont have the IT CARD but with good sideboarding and preparation to your meta we can still be a force to reckon with. Most of my matches are game 3 deciders that I won because of my right sideboarding :wink:.
Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0
I really don't know what to think right now... maybe if I get to play a tournament with goblins again, but it might take a while... Maybe GBLord is right, and some kind of "revolution" is called for the deck to compete in the meta...
