Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Next is the question of the 4th terminus or a supreme verdict. I'm leaning towards playing 1 verdict over the 4th terminus because occasionally you get those double terminus in opening 7 hands. Also, verdict is blue so it's not totally dead against combo since it pitches to force.

Right now goblins is a major problem. I simply cannot beat it. I'm thinking of playing a moat and an enlightened tutor in the board to combat gobs. Any other good anti gobs cards? What's most effective? I have 2 slots max for this matchup. Peacekeeper is not too good as gempalm etc can take it down easy.

Edit: Tested Verdict a bunch. Double white killed it, it's really hard to play around wastes/ cast verdict on T4. You can't consistently get double white. Terminus is just better at sweeping.

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You will not be able to beat Goblins (reliably) if you are only going to devote 2 slots to it. Goblins is easily one of the worst matchups for this deck, and one of the main reasons why Goblins is pretty strong in the meta right now. The reason this matchup is so difficult is that Goblins is easily the best deck at consistently applying out pressure. Even if they're just small creatures, matrons and ringleaders will easily get them more card advantage than you, and their deck is all threats. They have a strong mana denial plan with Rishadan Port and Wasteland to prevent us from playing effectively at all points in the game, have REBs out of the board, and now have Cavern of Souls to wreck any possible counters. A lot of games we can win by getting to a point where we control the game state almost regardless of what our opponent draws, but this can almost never happen against Goblins.

To beat Goblins the first thing you need to do is run SFM + Batterskull in the main. Batterskull is a huge wall, stabilizes your life, and can work towards ending the game, something which is desperately needed. They do have ways to deal with it, but honestly if you don't have SFM in the main your odds of winning game 1 are abysmal. Next, I would consider at least 4 slots in the board to help this matchup; however, not all of these slots have to be dead in general. I would suggest running 3 Porphyry Nodes (surprise) and 1 extra Entreat the Angels. Nodes is great in pretty much any aggro matchup (especially RUG in my experience), so it's not a narrow card at all. Despite not answering a creature immediately, it can really buy you time early to stabilize because of its super cheap cost, which is well worth the delay. The extra Entreat the Angels in the board might seem kind of strange, but it actually makes a lot of sense. As a win-condition, Entreat can end the game very quickly, or be a wall of blockers (especially on the defense). Yes, it can be expensive, but realistically it's one of the best ways Miracles can steal games against Goblins, which is can have trouble with otherwise. Having another miracle can decrease consistency of draws, but being able to reliably see this card is important. Additionally, Entreat is a house in the mirror or Esperblade matchups, so it's a great card to bring in there, again widening its application as a board card.

Moat is definitely an okay out against Goblins if you have enough other creature removal to back it up. You need to reliably get to 4 mana, which is not always easy, but once moat sticks it can buy you a lot of time. However, that's just it, it buys you time. A goblins player is by no means out when a moat hits play, either to poke you with a Siege-Gang Commander, or if they run Krosan Grips in their sideboard. As such, I prefer cards that can stabilize the board and end the game on their own (Entreat, SFM + Batterskull).

Thanks for the reply, I'm currently also maining sfm which can occasionally steal some games. I'm not sold on the nodes though. Because it seems like a powerful delaying solution. It buys you time to set up something huge, which in your case is entreat. I'm looking for game winning cards similar to entreat/moat because buying time is not a problem usually against gobs. Terminus, stp etc can get you there, it's the density of bomb cards that is most important IMO.

Atm, I'm playing 2 enlightened and a moat in the board. Having enlightened let's me trim some gravehate, and it does abit against combo by helping assemble counter top. It's even harder to get entreat off compared to moat. Of course moat is expensive and not everyone may have access to it, but it's 4 mana and lights out against gobs. With stp, snaps and terminus, it shouldn't be that hard to deal with sgc. I'm open to ideas though.

I'm also thinking about another sfm and a jitte in the board. However the deck is even more creature light than Stoneblade, so this might not be the best idea.

It uses to be easier in traditional landfill because humility and manlands were gg. I'm only running 3 mishra's though and any number or ports and wastes will wreck the humility plan.

Hey guys, so some interesting results from the most recent StarCity Open. The following RiP combo UW control deck popped up as 3rd (piloted by Caleb Durwad) and 10th place, literally card for card except for the lands:

Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance
2 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus

Basic Lands
5 Island
3 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aura of Silence
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace Beleren
1 Supreme Verdict


Unfortunately I have no experience with a combo-oriented style of the deck, so I can't offer very many of my own thoughts at the moment, but I wanted to let you guys know about the list. My concern of combo-oriented decks are that the combo pieces on their own tend to be very weak to useless (see: Thopter/Foundry and Painter/Stone). Certainly one of the upsides here is that Rest in Peace actually has significant application against most of the legacy field, and has the potential to hose very strongly certain decks. 2/3 of RUG's creatures become useless to this, Maverick's biggest threat becomes a 2/2, dredge scoops, and Snapcaster mage starts to look silly, just to name a few applications. I don't like the other combo pieces (helm and energy field), but at the very least field pitches to force, and either combination almost wins the game on the spot, so the power tradeoff does seem worth it. I think having access to some "oops I win" buttons is something to always appreciate in control, and RIP certainly does look promising. Now, if this version is stronger than traditional Miracle lists or hybrid Stoneblade lists is up in the air, but at the very least we should give it some consideration.

Does anybody have any thoughts about playing with or against this deck that they'd like to share?

I don't like the low number of fetches in the deck CalebD played. 6 fetchland doesn't seem to interact well with Top - I've enjoyed upwards of 9 fetches in a shell before, and cut out all the bullshit lands like Dust Bowl, Karakas, and Glacial Fortress. I've found that you don't need 3 Tundra at all (and exposes you to Wasteland). Like Valtrix mentioned in his post, the mana base looks wonky as shit for this type of deck, but the main looks fine. I am usually in favor of playing more ETutor and one less D-Sphere. This is corroborated by the ambitious sideboard plan that could use some shoring.

The list has 8 fetches: 2 mesa, 4 strand, 1 tarn, 1 misty.

Yes it does (Arid mesa got lost in translation for me). Point still stands on the non-basics.

To me Entreat the Angels already feels like a "1 card combo finish". Hence I like only having 1 Helm as an alternative wincon. Maybe RIP should primarily treatet as another soft lock with energy field. In that case playing more tha 2 field might be better.

I think the deck has enough punch to get by without the combo. Since this deck gets better as the game drags on, you don't need the complication of a combo finish. Combo style finishes are important when a deck has no endgame ala natural order rug.

However, in the board its a different story. Rest I'm peace holds its on as a gravehate wrecker and I'm already playing enlightened for moat. Adding 1 helm to "I win" against some decks seems useful. But what matchups does it actually improve?

Tapping out against combo with helm is a bad idea. I'd also rather draw a balance over helm. Against Aggro, you should win if you stabilize so the combo finish is just clunky. Helm seems easily disruptable against control. If they kill helm, your rips are dead.

I don't see any matchups which it drastically improves other than. Maybe goblins as another win condition. But if rather just tutor for moat in that situation because the combo is slow as hell. Energy field- rip seems like a pretty good way to beat goblins though. However, the deck's becomes super clunky in other matchups where you'll have stranded combo components. Everywhere. I don't like it.

Don't get me started on the manabase. The deck can't run without duals like tundra. Yet when you run it you risk losing your field to a wasteland. It's ridiculous. But you can't afford to go all basics because you need double white and double blue. I don't think that risk to your manabase is worth it at all. Of course you can wait for rip to be down beforehand you cast the field, but that defeats the purpose of independently useful combo components.

I actually think the Energy Field//RIP is enough of a "I Win" that you don't need the Helm of Obedience. Entreat the Angels can be more than enough to formally win games.

1 or 2 helm is good if you are packing rip main

It wins right on the spot and the deck is geared to deal with "useless" cards(miracle) in hand anyway.
Moreover there is the surprise factor (for now) of the helm, some of the field won t see it coming first game.

I'm currently testing +2 CS +1 CB (=4 CB) over those 3 MD Spell Pierces. I know the debate over SP's value is old and SP won, however I've been experiencing countless situations when SP was useless. Sure U VS. UU wins casting-cost-wise, but my manabase is rock-solid atm and can support it, plus the CB curve benefits from a higher CMC2 density. For reference see the list below:

1 Ponder
4 BS
4 Jace
4 Top
4 CB
4 FoW
2 CS
4 STP

3 Terminus
1 S. Verdict
1 D. Sphere

2 SCM
2 Clique
2 EtA

8 Fetch
7 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Karakas


Anyone else trying a similar approach atm?
Edit: Helm seems out of place here.

I've been sbing the rip/helm combo for a few weeks now and I really like it. It ends games much quicker and most decks aren't prepared for it, although after Caleb's showing I'm sure it will get more popular. I tried SP for a little while but I went back to CS, SP is better in a meta of fast combo.

I am still rocking Spell Pierce due to it being good against nearly everything. From Show and Tell, to Sensei's Divining Top, over Stifle to Force of Will it is a great counter. I would not cut it to be honest. Maybe to 2, but not cut it.


Greetings

If more people are interested in discussing the combo version, there is a thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...517#post684517

It's much more dependent on RIP and the actual combo, unclear which one is better (Miracles vs. Heavy Combo)

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Originally Posted by Koby

I actually think the Energy Field//RIP is enough of a "I Win" that you don't need the Helm of Obedience. Entreat the Angels can be more than enough to formally win games.

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Unless they also drop an Energy Field, then you are struggling. It depends if you are maindecking them or just using them as a sideboard option against aggro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

I actually think the Energy Field//RIP is enough of a "I Win" that you don't need the Helm of Obedience. Entreat the Angels can be more than enough to formally win games.

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I am not convinced that Energy Field + RIP is game over against majority of the field. People have annihilator triggers, Abrupt Decays, Qasali Pridemages, Red Elemental Blasts, Engineered Explosives etc. If you don't end the game soon after how long can that lock hold the gates against the major decks in the format?

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

I am not convinced that Energy Field + RIP is game over against majority of the field. People have annihilator triggers, Abrupt Decays, Qasali Pridemages, Red Elemental Blasts, Engineered Explosives etc. If you don't end the game soon after how long can that lock hold the gates against the major decks in the format?

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Which is exactly why you have Helm of Obedience in the deck.
With RIP on the field is a 5 mana "I win" card that bypasses basically everything and lets you win on the spot (well, you have to pass the turn :tongue: ), something that all other win con in the deck don't do.

The bad interaction between EField and Jace is known, so one thing to avoid is to run out the EField unprotected or without RIP in play, hence why only 2 of them.
Playing the deck I had absolutely no problems with the manabase and I really see no reason to complain since it's the STANDARD manabase for Miracle, -1 Tundra +1 Dust Bowl, but that would take some ACTUAL testing and not just speculation, like in the last few pages, to realize.

Glacial Fortress is nothing short of awesome and I would play a second without a question if the meta fills up with more Chokes and anyone saying it's not should play the deck instead of relying on some weird theory.
The MD RIP are incredible against a vast majority of the field, keeping Knights at 2/2, Goyf at 0/1, Mongeese at 1/1 and winning on the spot against Dredge and Reanimators, aswell as blanking Snapcaster Mages.

I tried playing one as a silver bullet in the MD with an Enlightened Tutor before and I liked it a lot for those reasons, but I must say that having the chance to play one without using up a Tutor and replace it should they be destroyed was well worth the 3 slots.
I'm not sold on EField yet, but I'll have to test the deck a bit more and maybe understand better when to put it out.

I suggest to everyone in here to TEST a given decklist (any decklist) before giving advices, suggesting changes or dismissing it, because "I think" is of no use to the development of the deck since you have nothing but theory to back those statement up.

And there's nothing else in the last few posts but speculation and no actual results nor testing.

I would like to try the Hybrid Version because I love Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull. How does this creature selection look:


Maindeck
2 Snapcaster
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace

Sideboard
1 Stoneforge
1 Snapcaster
1 Jitte or 2nd Batterskull
1 Entreat the Angels

Is that enough bodies for the second Equipment (Jitte) out of the board

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Originally Posted by Jblaze4lif

I would like to try the Hybrid Version because I love Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull. How does this creature selection look:


Maindeck
2 Snapcaster
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace

Sideboard
1 Stoneforge
1 Snapcaster
1 Jitte or 2nd Batterskull
1 Entreat the Angels

Is that enough bodies for the second Equipment (Jitte) out of the board

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You probably want another stoneforge or 2. 2 SToneforges with 2 equipment targets is not exactly ideal.

My Sideboard has the 3rd Stoneforge check above.

Out of the board it would be

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte