Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apple713
Very rough list of what i wanted to test. Some thoughts about this deck
With sphere and thorns i don't miss trinisphere. Spheres / thorns are better in multiples than trinispheres.
12 post lands generate enough mana to play around spheres and thorns.
Chalice was originally not it the deck and only in the SB.
I'm considering taking it back out in favor of Goblin welder. If I did that I'd want to drop some city's / tombs / wastelands for mountains / great furnace.
wasteland is good only for locking the opponent out with crucible and might not be the best option here.
tangle wire in many cases is a time walk for 1-3 turns.
I wish i could play 16 lodestone golems. Since I can't i put in metamorphs
Forgemaster may have a home in here as well as batter skull.
all is dust is terrible with spheres / thorns
because the spheres / thorns slow the opponent down, it means that you don't have to be as explosive. This means you can cut metal worker / monolith for consistency.
I'll add more thoughts later.
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Opal
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
3 All Is Dust <--- not good with spheres / thorns
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
Very interesting iteration, I might be willing to try this out.
DnT looks like it could be this list's worst nightmare. It seems like they can shut off your plan with Wastes, Ports, and Thalias. Considering DnT runs mostly creatures, all your Thorns/Spheres may end up taxing you more than they tax your opponent. Playing around those would involve having around 3 Loci, which would involve first drawing them and then having them not be Wasted.
I don't know about the AIDs in this list. If you're plan A (taxing people out) is successful, I don't see much value in casting what could be an expensive "spot removal" card. Perhaps you can cut them for some Forgemasters?
I feel more comfortable running more threats. Having 16 Lodestones would be quite nice...
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Hello. I played almost same list than Wayne Polimine. http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/61418
Differences:
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 All Is Dust
+1 Steel Hellkite
+1 Faerie Macabre
+1 Duplicant
+1 Summoning Trap
So the tournament had 13 players. I went 4-0.
G1 vs. All spells 2-1
I won the dice and knew what he was playing so mulled to 5 and played first turn A. tomb, monolith to trinisphere that was a game. He started and won at T1 I think I kept hand like T1 metalworker or something. Third game and I was on play keep 7 and have chalice @ 0. Few turn we draw more cards and I put trini + lodestone online and he scooped.
G2 vs. Jund 2-1
I played quick wurmcoil and it was too much for him. Second game he wasted my land and I left at 2 mana and lose to confidant and loam + waste. Third game I play T3 staff of nin and shoot his confidant later sundering titan comes and destroys his 3 lands GG.
G3 vs. imperial painter 2-0
I put T2 trinisphere and he had only 2 mana + welder I just attack with something for win. Second match he puts T1 blood moon. I just start playing mountains and put chalice @ 0 and 1 online. He cast recruiter and find Viashino Heretic! I draw 4 th land and put lodestone and hope he doesnt have 4th land. After 2 turns he put it on play but on my turn I draw Karn and exile his viashino and win soon later.
G4 vs. BUG delver 2-0
Game 1 my second wurmcoil resolves and wins game against his tombstalker. Game 2 is very slow he has tarmo shamans etc. I get batterskull and hit some metalworkers and golems on board and equip them. Finally he runs out of removal and my metalworker with batterskull and Karn finish the game.
Opinions:
-Hard to get 3 artifacts for forgemaster but its still very scary creature
-Superior manabase compared to old mud stompy shell
-Turn one on draw is very weak against oops all spells but I dont think that more faerie macabres are needed against that minor deck - just win the dice lol
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fogxanic
Opinions:
-Hard to get 3 artifacts for forgemaster but its still very scary creature
-Superior manabase compared to old mud stompy shell
-Turn one on draw is very weak against oops all spells but I dont think that more faerie macabres are needed against that minor deck - just win the dice lol
Congratulations on the finish, fogxanic!
-I've had either had the full set, three, or no Forgemasters in the 75. My current list may have a few spaces, I might sneak just two or so in to filter through redundant lock pieces.
-Agreed. I haven't faced enough Wasteland decks, but for the few times that I have it hasn't been much of a problem.
-Yeah, this deck doesn't have much game against turn-0 combo decks, but they usually represent a small portion of the field anyway. Dice roll definitely wins you this game.
Questions/other thoughts:
-Has Lightning Greaves fallen out of favor? I feel about Greaves the same way I feel about Blightsteel: sometimes its amazing, sometimes it's just a do-nothing rock. It's such a good card in the fair match ups - it's great to have an early hastened Metalworker or a protected Wurm/Dragon late game. What are the theories you guys have on this?
-I like the idea of Staff of Nin, but I'm having a hard time justifying space for it. One copy is pretty solid against DnT, two in play is practically having the Punishing Grove combo (obviously easier to assemble with Forgemaster). Are people playing this in their 75, and if so, how many and where?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kingofethanol
Congratulations on the finish, fogxanic!
-I've had either had the full set, three, or no Forgemasters in the 75. My current list may have a few spaces, I might sneak just two or so in to filter through redundant lock pieces.
-Agreed. I haven't faced enough Wasteland decks, but for the few times that I have it hasn't been much of a problem.
-Yeah, this deck doesn't have much game against turn-0 combo decks, but they usually represent a small portion of the field anyway. Dice roll definitely wins you this game.
Questions/other thoughts:
-Has Lightning Greaves fallen out of favor? I feel about Greaves the same way I feel about Blightsteel: sometimes its amazing, sometimes it's just a do-nothing rock. It's such a good card in the fair match ups - it's great to have an early hastened Metalworker or a protected Wurm/Dragon late game. What are the theories you guys have on this?
-I like the idea of Staff of Nin, but I'm having a hard time justifying space for it. One copy is pretty solid against DnT, two in play is practically having the Punishing Grove combo (obviously easier to assemble with Forgemaster). Are people playing this in their 75, and if so, how many and where?
Staff of nin is usually good if opponent doesnt play counters, even spell piece hits it. I have a lot of problems agaisnt junk/the rock because they have stops, teeq and qasali. Teeq just disables staff of nin and karn even chalice. Propably very good against uw miracles if resolves.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I do not approve of the direction this thread is going. Seems everbody just jumps on the latest thing. Or maybe i am just an old skool MUD player, i like to nutralise their threads then overpower them with raw force. Thats fun. Thats why i play MUD. And i find this list to be optimal:
4#Chalice of the Void
4#Lodestone Golem
3#Ratchet Bomb
4#Grim Monolith
4#Metalworker
3#Thran Dynamo
3#Phyrexian Metamorph
3#Phyrexian Revoker
3#Steel Hellkite
4#Wurmcoil Engine
4#Ancient Tomb
4#City of Traitors
4#Cavern of Souls
4#Mishra’s Factory
2#Rishadan Port
4#Wasteland
3#Karn Liberated
/ sideboard
2#Crucible of Worlds
3#Tormod’s Crypt
1#Ratchet Bomb
4#Trinisphere
2#All Is Dust
3#Faerie Macabre
Observations:
*ratchet bombs should be main always. A 2 mana kill spell artifact? That kills delvers free? That kills a board full of dredge zombies? Affinity critters swarming? a weapon that wipes te board of THE most played creatures in legacy? Hell yeah. not putting them main is crazy. They are as good as chalice.
*Metamorph is nice. Copying lodestone t3 feels so good. Plus it kills show and tells emrakul decks. Now thats value for 3 mana. 3 is a good number in mud since it fits nice in the mana curve.
*Steel hellkite is a good boy. If they dont kill him instantly he puts them on a clock plus provides a way to remove pesky cards.
Did a little tournament yesterday and kept notes for you (3-0):
BG combo elves 2-0
First game he drops forest and passes. I drop chalice @ 1 of ancient tomb and t2 i put revoker on his quirion ranger. T3 i drop another land into thran dynamo into metalworker. I overpower him with fatties.
Second game he start with pithing needle on metalworker. Wich isnt even in my hand. Metalworker is a great distraction to everyone! I drop another chalice @ 1. He drops deathrite shaman, sentinel and a bayou. I get out a lodestone then waste the bayou. He manages another sentinel of deathrite but next turn i drop another lodestone, followed by a hellkite. He tries to cheat in a symbiote i point to both lodestones… he gives up! :tongue:
Some Black deck? 2-1
He starts with inquisition of kozilek from a swamp. He chooses ratchet bomb. My only cheap card. I do have 2 mishras in hand wich are valuable i guess against heavy discard, wich he doesnt have as i am soon to find out. I drop one factory, he drops bloodghast. I hope to get a lodestone out but he wasteland one factory. He plays a senseis top wich surprises me. I have ratchet out on 1 but decide to keep it a little longer. He drop tombstalker.. i play metalworker hoping to race him with a wurm in my hand. Then he drops liliana and i give up.
Second game i drop traitors into chalice. He does nothing. Then i go for metalworker with cavern. Could have played a second traitors into lodestone would probaly have been better. It sticks as he plays a bitterblossom? I realise maybe this isnt pox after all. I metalwork into a wurm and a second metalworker. Good thing as he drops liliana, i sac the tapped metalworker next turn i play lodestone kill liliana. He plays another liliana and now has 2 faeries. I attack with wurm lodestone and a mishras factory wich he didnt expect. He still makes it hard by dropping tombstalker, i am at 38 life by now thanks to wurm. Then i drop metamorph into another wurm. I attack to get to 51 life while he slowely dies of bitterblossom he scoops.
Third he goed swamp into top. I go tomb into monolith. I have metalworker but decide to play it safe and go for thran dynamo next turn. He uses pithing needle on my monolith. Next turn i drop traitors into dynamo into metalworker. He innocents bloods my metalworker. Wich doesnt matter because with thran im on 7 mana anyway. He gets another needle on dynamo. Suddenly i realise needle doesnt do SHIT against mana abilities!!! Quickly drop wurmcoil. Dont care about his bloodghast because also drop chalice at 2. He counters with a tombstalker. I dont care i drop liberated and exiles it. He still wont bow down. He drops another liliana against wurmcoil wich well doesnt do muchof course. Next turn i attack for 6 get him down to 1 exile his only card with karn then play all is dust to kill liliana. GG.
Affinity 2-1
Game 1 he plays first and i lose fast. Ratchet bomb helps out yet he swarms me, i only draw lands. Affinity is problematic for my deck but it does seems fair since it doesnt run counters or removal spells. This itteration does has some duress, or maybe this is normal? :confused:
Second game i know he doesnt play removal or counters so i just gogogogo. Tomb into monolith into metalworker into steel hellkite and a wurmcoil. He scoops.
Third game he opens with 2 0 mana creatures and a mox opal. I play tomb into ratchet bomb and nuke his side. He keeps playing that (blue affinity) free card draw spell so i keep facing hordes of pests. Totally unfair card advantage for him. Finally i get a hellkite out together with a trinisphere. He drops a few cards and i point to the trinisphere telling him he cant do that. He realise i will blow up his team with hellkite and scoops.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
*Metamorph is nice. Copying lodestone t3 feels so good. Plus it kills show and tells emrakul decks. Now thats value for 3 mana. 3 is a good number in mud since it fits nice in the mana curve.
Umm...Metamorph isn't really that good against Shown and Tell. Phyrexian Metamorph enters the battlefield as a copy of a creature or artifact already on the battlefied. As such, it cannot copy an Emrakul (or anything else) that is put into play at the same time as it with a Show and Tell. This is different then Duplicant, for example, which has an ability which triggers upon entering the battlefield. It's the same reason why you can put Phyrexian Revoker into play off of a Shown and Tell and name Griselbrand or Sneak Attack to prevent the activated abilities of the card the opponent just put into play; since you name the card "as Phyrexian Revoker enters the battlefield," there is no trigger, no passing of priority, and no opportunity for the opponent to respond.
Anyway, Metamorph seems fine, as additional Lodestone Golems sounds great, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear what they can and can't do.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I think you are wrong about that metamorph ruling.
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Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
I think you are wrong about that metamorph ruling.
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From Gatherer rulings for Phyrexian Metamorph: 6/1/2011 - If Phyrexian Metamorph somehow enters the battlefield at the same time as another permanent (due to Mass Polymorph or Liliana Vess's third ability, for example), Phyrexian Metamorph can't become a copy of that permanent. You may only choose a permanent that's already on the battlefield.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
And that's what I get for thinking...
Anyway, there are two builds of MUD. Combo and Stompy. Kuldotha brought a new element to this Archetype that it actually probably needed. My buddy and I threw a Staff of Domination/Stuffy Doll combo in and are preparing for testing. I will be playing tempo and midrange for the prominent parts of the tests, and if all goes well I plan to test the heavy control matchup as well. I will be playing UWR Delver, Esper Stoneblade and DeathBlade. The heavy control will be UW and UWR Miracles. It's finals week so testing won't commence for about a week, but after that I will be heavily involved with the testing and will leave my findings on this thread for discussion and debate.
-ABC
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Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaptainTwiddle
Umm...Metamorph isn't really that good against Shown and Tell.
Phyrexian Metamorph enters the battlefield as a copy of a creature or artifact already on the battlefied. As such, it cannot copy an Emrakul (or anything else) that is put into play at the same time as it with a Show and Tell. This is different then
Duplicant, for example, which has an ability which triggers upon entering the battlefield. It's the same reason why you can put
Phyrexian Revoker into play off of a Shown and Tell and name Griselbrand or Sneak Attack to prevent the activated abilities of the card the opponent just put into play; since you name the card "as Phyrexian Revoker enters the battlefield," there is no trigger, no passing of priority, and no opportunity for the opponent to respond.
Anyway, Metamorph seems fine, as additional Lodestone Golems sounds great, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear what they can and can't do.
Well if its in your hand and someone plays emrakul you can copy it in your turn. Awesome.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
Well if its in your hand and someone plays emrakul you can copy it in your turn. Awesome.
So you'll have an Emrakul and they'll have an Emrakul. They'll attack before you can, making you sac 6 permanents and forcing you to block with your Emrakul (if you haven't sacrificed it). So, no, that doesn't sound awesome.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
astormbrewing
So you'll have an Emrakul and they'll have an Emrakul. They'll attack before you can, making you sac 6 permanents and forcing you to block with your Emrakul (if you haven't sacrificed it). So, no, that doesn't sound awesome.
^This.
I think the best use of Metamorph is copying your own stuff, not your opponent's (although copying a SFM and getting your own Batterskull would be pretty hot).
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
astormbrewing
So you'll have an Emrakul and they'll have an Emrakul. They'll attack before you can, making you sac 6 permanents and forcing you to block with your Emrakul (if you haven't sacrificed it). So, no, that doesn't sound awesome.
Well ur list wouldnt stand a change indeed. 12 post lands are slow to rebuild. You dont run 3 karns to exile anything Yes you would be in trouble lol.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
^This.
I think the best use of Metamorph is copying your own stuff, not your opponent's (although copying a SFM and getting your own Batterskull would be pretty hot).
I run him for 3 weeks, 99% of the time its a lodestone or a wurmcoil. 3 mana wurmcoil is nice!
Id imagine i would be copying more tarmogoyfs but it never happened..
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
I run him for 3 weeks, 99% of the time its a lodestone or a wurmcoil. 3 mana wurmcoil is nice!
Id imagine i would be copying more tarmogoyfs but it never happened..
Or hes a grisselbrand/ emrakul
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Will try out a list similar to Alex Holland's list. I found that I sided in Ratchet Bomb a lot. Might as well be maindeck if it's sided in almost 100% of the time.
And as much as I like the mana Cloudpost can give.....a bit slow vs the Delver decks, especially on the draw.
Turn 1 they cast Delver.
Your turn you play Cloudpost go....
Turn 2 they flip delver and waste your land. Boo urns.
Also with a lot of MUD lists not running artifact lands, I sometimes find it hard for Forgemaster to be able to tutor. I also found Sundering titan to be a bit meh. When I could tutor for something, it was usually Blightsteel Colossus. On occasion it was Staff of Domination.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wilkin
...I also found Sundering titan to be a bit meh. When I could tutor for something, it was usually Blightsteel Colossus. On occasion it was Staff of Domination.
I've had the same experience with Sundering Titan, but I'm really glad to have it available when I have the green light to Forgemaster, but they're telegraphing Swords to Plowshares. While only so-so against Stoneblade (UW), Titan is pretty solid against Esperblade and BRUTAL against Deathblade (also UWr Delver); it enters play, nukes their lands, they Swords it, it nukes what is left of their lands, and it's too large for them to handle with anything other than Swords.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaptainTwiddle
I've had the same experience with Sundering Titan, but I'm really glad to have it available when I have the green light to Forgemaster, but they're telegraphing Swords to Plowshares. While only so-so against Stoneblade (UW), Titan is pretty solid against Esperblade and BRUTAL against Deathblade (also UWr Delver); it enters play, nukes their lands, they Swords it, it nukes what is left of their lands, and it's too large for them to handle with anything other than Swords.
All aggro decks we face, regardless of what we are running, die if they cant use swords. Our threads are too big and outrun them (wurmcoil). So that chalice @1 is nice but if you have a way of taking out their white mana thats fine too. Mana denial is the best protection. Last GP almost every top16 deck ran 3 colors!
Pro to titan is that it is tutorable, if you run forgemaster of course. Since i dont im dependant on wasteland to back up chalice against swords. And karn of course. Hes the biggest land destructor in legacy a not too known fact :tongue:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wilkin
Will try out a list similar to Alex Holland's list. I found that I sided in Ratchet Bomb a lot. Might as well be maindeck if it's sided in almost 100% of the time.
And as much as I like the mana Cloudpost can give.....a bit slow vs the Delver decks, especially on the draw.
Turn 1 they cast Delver.
Your turn you play Cloudpost go....
Turn 2 they flip delver and waste your land. Boo urns.
Also with a lot of MUD lists not running artifact lands, I sometimes find it hard for Forgemaster to be able to tutor. I also found Sundering titan to be a bit meh. When I could tutor for something, it was usually Blightsteel Colossus. On occasion it was Staff of Domination.
I noticed the same actually. I sided in Ratchet Bomb all the time. So I decided to play two of them main now. It's also nice against the new nameless merfolk dude.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Am i the only who feels like thran dynamo is metalworker 5/6/7/8?
If its out i can play anything i want, plus its harder to remove then worker wich often catches removal instantly!
