[Primer/Deck] Burn

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals? Done it a few times on mtgo. I accidentally found out you could turn two people with the deck. Just need 8 cards. Turn one Eidolon is silly too and almost always the right play.

Starting hand.

Swiftspear, mountain, petal, bolt, bolt, bolt and fireblast. Turn two draw a mountain. Of course it can be in different configurations of same 8. As long as you can play mountain >> swiftspear >>> petal >>>bolt turn one. 6 damage. Followed by mountain >>> double bolt >> fireblast = 20 damage exactly.

I've had games with three Goblin Guides turn one. Followed by more attackers turn two is comparable to storm casting warrens speed.

It's a simple list but try petals. It's not just for treasure cruise.

Legacy Burn

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
------------------------
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Ensaring Bridge

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

Genuinely surprised people are putting Grim into their lists again. What deck is chasing you guys to use him again? It's been awhile since I've played, lol.

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I don't think it ever left the format completely... Anyway, Burn often runs 8 to 12 fetch lands that feed this guy turn after turn. Considering Burn's lack of library manipulation and card advantage, turning your graveyard into shocks is priceless.

Regarding Grim Lavamancer's interaction with the current metagame, it's a really good card against the different decks using Deathrite Shaman and/or Delver of Secrets. It's also ridiculous against Death and Taxes. It can help burning Eldrazis without losing all your fuel, and it's a solid 1-drop against Miracles.

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Originally Posted by Munchyman

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals? Done it a few times on mtgo. I accidentally found out you could turn two people with the deck. Just need 8 cards. Turn one Eidolon is silly too and almost always the right play.

Starting hand.

Swiftspear, mountain, petal, bolt, bolt, bolt and fireblast. Turn two draw a mountain. Of course it can be in different configurations of same 8. As long as you can play mountain >> swiftspear >>> petal >>>bolt turn one. 6 damage. Followed by mountain >>> double bolt >> fireblast = 20 damage exactly.

I've had games with three Goblin Guides turn one. Followed by more attackers turn two is comparable to storm casting warrens speed.

It's a simple list but try petals. It's not just for treasure cruise.

Legacy Burn

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
------------------------
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Ensaring Bridge

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I can't see any reason why this list shouldn't run simian spirit guide over lotus petal. Possible threat, takes no damage to eidolon effects, dodges chalice, and allows you surprise get around daze.

I understand your point. To add to your point. You could even hard cast it to gain some late game pressure. Point of lotus petal is to make a turn two kill possible while keeping that same shell most of us are use too.

Im hoping it's a simple upgrade can help us out is few match ups. Turn one eidolon is enough to make some decks vomit.

Lotus Petal would be a terrible late game top-deck. If you want the acceleration I agree that SSG would be better, as it's not a completely dead card.

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Originally Posted by Munchyman

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals?

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No, because Lotus Petal is hot garbage in Burn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobNC

Lotus Petal would be a terrible late game top-deck. If you want the acceleration I agree that SSG would be better, as it's not a completely dead card.

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Pretty sure a mountain in many cases is garbage top deck as well. Most burn decks run 19-20 mana sources. Most people run 10-12 fetches and about 8 mountains. Not to change subject but hasn't it already been proven that "thinning" your deck just to thin has a fraction of a percent to help your top deck? May as well run all mountains. Now how much would it hurt to run the same amount of mana sources, say 20. Cutting some number of fetches and or mountains. For petals? Deck still only needs 1-2 mana to truly be played.

I see

Pros:
Busted turn two kills
Turn one eidolon
Grim Lavamancer fodder
Could make deck a turn faster


Cons:
Could lead to mana screw situations
Could have top decked a mountain instead
Chalice on zero is a petal lockout
Your own eidolon could lock you out from playing petal locking you out from another burn spell.

Hmm. I'm kinda fine with pros vs cons. Seriously though it's burn. Not like much is gonna effect the way it plays out.
First couple of turns is still going to play out the way it does normally. After that it's just too deck to win the race. Saying if petal is a bad top deck is a bad argument. Because it's exactly like top deck a mountain.

I also can't see how spirit guide would be strictly better. Spirit guides doesn't allow for swiftspear triggers.

How often will you be triggering swiftspear with lotus petal? I think the rest of pros of ssg vs lotus petal are worth it.

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Originally Posted by TheYoungPyromancer

I don't think it ever left the format completely... Anyway, Burn often runs 8 to 12 fetch lands that feed this guy turn after turn. Considering Burn's lack of library manipulation and card advantage, turning your graveyard into shocks is priceless.

Regarding Grim Lavamancer's interaction with the current metagame, it's a really good card against the different decks using Deathrite Shaman and/or Delver of Secrets. It's also ridiculous against Death and Taxes. It can help burning Eldrazis without losing all your fuel, and it's a solid 1-drop against Miracles.

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I've been playing Burn for awhile, so I do understand the value Grim gives. In fact, I kept Grim in the deck until sometime last year when I got tired of D&T blindly naming Grim against me forcing me to change my build into using Swiftspear. Good point about Eldrazi. Is there another new deck for the reason why Grim is coming back?

To give you a more accurate time period of when I started to stop playing was when Eldrazi became a deck in Legacy, I stopped paying attention and playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Munchyman

Ever try taking stock burn list and adding lotus petals? Done it a few times on mtgo. I accidentally found out you could turn two people with the deck. Just need 8 cards. Turn one Eidolon is silly too and almost always the right play.

Starting hand.

Swiftspear, mountain, petal, bolt, bolt, bolt and fireblast. Turn two draw a mountain. Of course it can be in different configurations of same 8. As long as you can play mountain >> swiftspear >>> petal >>>bolt turn one. 6 damage. Followed by mountain >>> double bolt >> fireblast = 20 damage exactly.

I've had games with three Goblin Guides turn one. Followed by more attackers turn two is comparable to storm casting warrens speed.

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Do you have any number of the consistency of this list? one of the many reason why mono red is a stable deck is for his consistency, to be a player of mono red mean you want to curve out your oponent and if you are unable to cast 2 spell or a powerfull spell in turn 2 may cost you the game. I'm allways looking for a gap with this deck, if i no longer be able to see and take a gap, then there is no reason to play the deck beyond the love i have for this deck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

I've been playing Burn for awhile, so I do understand the value Grim gives. In fact, I kept Grim in the deck until sometime last year when I got tired of D&T blindly naming Grim against me forcing me to change my build into using Swiftspear. Good point about Eldrazi. Is there another new deck for the reason why Grim is coming back?

To give you a more accurate time period of when I started to stop playing was when Eldrazi became a deck in Legacy, I stopped paying attention and playing.

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may be i'm wrong with this, but i think the game is a little bit slower in this moment, so you can play 1 o 2 Grim in your deck and don't be punished for that. the issue (at least for me) is when to play it. it's cost one, but is it a t1 drop? i try to avoid to play it befor t2 on the play or t3 on the draw, to force my oponent have to use his/her remove spell in a guide or monastery

on the lotus petal issue, i just remembered my burn deck when mirrodin was part of the standar and moxen was part of my deck, if i could put a slith firewalker in play early as t1 it was a very good chance of won that game
with that in my mind i will test your list

Hello Source Mages!

I've followed these forums over the years but never posted, figured I'd share my recent story of GP Louisville since I was able to have success with my favorite archetype Burn at the high level:

https://reddeckwinning.com/2017/01/1...ix-louisville/

I'm usually pretty busy but definitely happy to discuss my build more and join the fire on here :). Hopefully maybe I can even join the lists on the original thread page

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Originally Posted by reddeckwinning

Hello Source Mages!

I've followed these forums over the years but never posted, figured I'd share my recent story of GP Louisville since I was able to have success with my favorite archetype Burn at the high level:

https://reddeckwinning.com/2017/01/1...ix-louisville/

I'm usually pretty busy but definitely happy to discuss my build more and join the fire on here :). Hopefully maybe I can even join the lists on the original thread page

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Congratulations on the result! It's really satisfying to see a fellow pyromancer make it that far in such a big tournament.
Nice report, by the way. Your sideboard strategy is very interesting -I certainly invite everyone here to read your report and the reasons behind the SB decisions you made. I'm sure we can all bring some of that experience into our own metagame and tournaments.

I'll post the list you ran at GP Louisville so everyone can see it.

//Maindeck//
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze

3 Sulfuric Vortex

3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Searing Blaze
1 Pyrostatic Pillar

I have a couple of questions:
1. I understand you were expecting to face a couple of Miracles during this tournament, as you mentioned at one point. So, how would you describe this build's strategy against Miracles? (considering you're only running 2 copies of Exquisite Firecraft and a single copy of Pyrostatic Pillar in your sideboard)
2. You didn't face any Eldrazi Stompy during the whole Grand Prix. What's your game strategy here? (aside from siding in Smash to Smithereens and Ensnaring Bridge)

Cheers!

Hi Young Pyromancer,

Thank you! The tournament was a blast and I am glad I was able to finally get past those early humps that I've had at SCG Classics. Would have been nice to finish the dream and make the PT finally, but I'm definitely happy about th finish.

You ask some good questions. I did expect to play both Miracles and Eldrazi, the list however was not tuned for the former. A very good Miracles player used to be at my LGS (Darrel Feltner - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8383&d=248178&f=LE ) and after endless games with him I figured out mostly how I like playing the matchup. Game 1 they have very few three drops in most builds, so like I mentioned in my article simply having 3 Sulfuric Vortexes is quite strong as you're likely to stick one in time to beat the Miracles player's end game. Also simply being efficient early with your spells, trying to use up creatures and sorceries at 1 CMC before they assemble the lock.

Obviously, some games they will get early counter-top and you are in an uphill battle (or Jace). I can accept losing some of those games, it's the equivalent of their best draw vs ours, and most of the time I feel that we are the on average better drawing deck in the matchup. They generally have hard permission and therefore less countermagic to play around in game 1. Countering a Goblin Guide with a Force is a very real play for them as he often chips in so much damage in these games. Also, even if they do assemble the lock, it's often very easy to sneak through a vortex, rift bolt, or lethal Fireblast. These spells require something along the lines of having Council's Judgment or Terminus on top. The builds with maindeck Monastery Mentor or Vendillion Clique are tougher as they present both more "3s" and a clock, so the mileage varies.

A really important facet of the matchup is jamming them. Open mana and post-draw situations are the worst spots to play spells, thus why I like firing off sorceries at 1 CMC early. That's not really much different from what you'd normally do, but the main part of it is finding your windows. When they go to spin top, brainstorm (especially), etc, I like to try and throw a lot of burn into these situations to both delay anything else they planned to do and also to make it more difficult to have everything they need at once. I'm happy to lose a Burn spell to a counter if it means another gets through. And also giving them less chances to find a particular number, like a 2 for price of progress.

With my previous build of the deck, the post board games were often where I'd really crush Miracles. I typically ran 4 Firecraft, 1 Molten Vortex, 1 Pithing Needle, and 2-3 Pyroblast. Bringing those in alongside the 3 Sulfuric Vortex and regular creature suite meant they generally would get behind early and stretched thin late. I didn't have the sideboard room for the GP, but I trusted my own knowledge of the matchup and experience to carry it, and figured since I already feel favored in the matchup that just having 2 Firecraft and a pillar was good enough. I think these games are more about reps then anything else, I lost against the deck for years before finally being comfortable and then rarely losing to it after that.

As for Eldrazi, having 3 Smash for Chalice and 3 Bridge is a pretty big deal. A lot of lists only run 2 of each if that. Also having 4 blazes total after board is fairly reasonable against their early creatures outside of TKS and Smasher. I think people just think this matchup is god awful for Burn, and while admittedly it's not great, price of progress is absolutely bananas in the matchup and they don't really have anything to stop it. I've priced Eldrazi opponents for as much as 12-14 damage with the card, so it's very reasonable to race and you have 4 copies. I'm happy to Mulligan to 5/6 sometimes too just to see a hand that looks like it will race.

I've waffled on bringing in Firecraft, tested it out somewhat since it gets around chalice and kills tks if you draw it after it lands. I think it's too slow, although sometimes it was effective. For the GP I wasn't planning to bring them in.

My GP build was more oriented towards Delver and D&T, with the hope that the board would be sufficient for Eldrazi and my play sufficient for Miracles. I did a spreadsheet analysis prior to the GP of a lot of famous finishes over the years (thanks to the OP on this thread) as well as watched a bunch of old top 8 matches. Brian Camidge's top 8 run inspired me as his build hedged a bit like mine and he seemed fine in the non-creature scary matchups while at the same time looking great for the creature ones. I wanted a little more positive percentage in the latter, and given his successful run I figured it was the right choice. Having Swiftspear, flame rift, extra firecrafts, Pyroblast, etc, doesn't help allll that much vs the other decks, but having a few maindeck blazes + lavamancer and a few more post board does really help against the creature decks.

Also Austin Yost and Patrick Sullivan were split on these plans over the years, and both of them tended to run pretty dedicated board plans, so I banked on making my own decision being the best route. Sullivan especially almost always ran 3-4 dedicated cards for the combo matchups which is what made me feel comfortable on the Leyline decision. I kept losing to Storm or Reanimator, I wasn't about to again at this GP.

It might not look like much or have anything new in it, but here's my creatureless Burn list!
// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sonic Seizure
4 Needle Drop
4 Geistflame
4 Price of Progress

// 20 Land
20 Mountain

// 20 Sorcery
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Browbeat
4 Rift Bolt
4 Firebolt


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Instant
SB: 4 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Guerrilla Tactics
SB: 4 Skullcrack
SB: 3 Runeflare Trap



It plays out pretty well from my past experiences. The only downside is sometimes losing game 1 to combo/sneakshow, but you still have a chance against all decks in the format because of the surprise factor of pointing your deck at their face.

Card Explanations:

The Burn spells are all mandatory except for Price of Progress, but it's a staple that can easily escalate to 4-8 damage midgame.

All the Burn spells cost one mana except for Browbeat, which acts as the decks engine to draw cards to hit Sonic Seizures, Geistflames and Firebolts.

In the sideboard you have Runeflare Trap to fight combo/control, Skullcrack to stop Lifegain, Smash to Smithereens to hit Chalice or Thorn and Sphere decks. Guerrilla Tactics is a often forgotten about card that will surprise players at the top tables that think they can steamroll you with discard effects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shax

It might not look like much or have anything new in it, but here's my creatureless Burn list!
// 60 Maindeck
// 20 Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sonic Seizure
4 Needle Drop
4 Geistflame
4 Price of Progress

// 20 Land
20 Mountain

// 20 Sorcery
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Browbeat
4 Rift Bolt
4 Firebolt


// 15 Sideboard
// 15 Instant
SB: 4 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Guerrilla Tactics
SB: 4 Skullcrack
SB: 3 Runeflare Trap



It plays out pretty well from my past experiences. The only downside is sometimes losing game 1 to combo/sneakshow, but you still have a chance against all decks in the format because of the surprise factor of pointing your deck at their face.

Card Explanations:

The Burn spells are all mandatory except for Price of Progress, but it's a staple that can easily escalate to 4-8 damage midgame.

All the Burn spells cost one mana except for Browbeat, which acts as the decks engine to draw cards to hit Sonic Seizures, Geistflames and Firebolts.

In the sideboard you have Runeflare Trap to fight combo/control, Skullcrack to stop Lifegain, Smash to Smithereens to hit Chalice or Thorn and Sphere decks. Guerrilla Tactics is a often forgotten about card that will surprise players at the top tables that think they can steamroll you with discard effects.

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Unplayable cards in your deck: Sonic Siezure, Needle Drop, Geistflame, Browbeat, Firebolt.

I think you have misunderstood the fundamentals of Burn, and are running too many inefficient spells as a result.

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Originally Posted by Speedbump

Unplayable cards in your deck: Sonic Siezure, Needle Drop, Geistflame, Browbeat, Firebolt.

I think you have misunderstood the fundamentals of Burn, and are running too many inefficient spells as a result.

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I think you're being modest while commenting about his deck.

Hello, everyone,

It has been a while since I've last posted in this thread, but I thought I'd share my recent tournament results with y'all. I've been off Burn for the last year or so since I built Imperial Painter, but with Vancouver's quarterly Legacy tournament approaching, I figured I should play what I'm most familiar with and sleeve up Burn. I'm happy to report that my deck decision treated me quite well, putting me in the top four of approximately thirty to forty people. Luck was definitely on my side that day, and in retrospect I made several questionable plays, but regardless the deck felt great and performed well for me. This is the list I played for Vancouver, British Columbia's 2017 Winter Legacy Classic:

Legacy: Burn (R)
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
1 Exquisite Firecraft
11 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Searing Blaze
3 Exquisite Firecraft

I've been playing a single copy of Sensei's Divining Top since I saw Yusuke Shimizu list and I'm sold on it. Other combo decks, Storm for instance, are starting to do this and I think the card can really help out in the late game. That being said, I'm reluctant to run more than one copy as I never want to see two in my opening hand. I've also opted against playing Monastery Swiftspear, and this may be a meta-game decision, but with the amount of creatures in the format right now, I rather not depend on combat damage to win games. Concerning the mana base, I've taken some inspiration from Patrick Sullivan and his two SCG top eight performances with Burn (list 1 & 2), by deciding to play twenty-one lands. I've played twenty lands in Burn for most of my time with the deck, but by adding an additional mountain I was hoping to reduce the number of opening hands with one land and also make it easier to play around Daze and Spell Pierce. Finally, the four copies of Leyline of the Void were a concession to the increased popularity of Reanimator, while also having some utility against Storm and Lands. In hindsight, I would've been better served with cards like Searing Blood or Sulfuric Vortex, but I guess it's better to be safe than sorry when dealing with graveyard decks.

My match-ups were the following:
Round 1: Miracles (2-1 with a timely Exquisite Firecraft off the top of my deck in game three, facing down a lethal Monastery Mentor attack the following turn)
1-0
Round 2: Elves (2-0 with my opponent mulling to 3 in game two)
2-0
Round 3: Death & Taxes (draw with a greasy game 2 where I had to trade one for one until I was able to land an Ensnaring Bridge due to my opponent's Umezawa's Jitte)
2-0-1
Round 4: Maverick (2-1 with a misplay from me in game two resulting in a third game)
3-0-1
Round 5: Eldrazi (2-1)
4-0-1
Round 6: Stoneblade (intentional draw into top eight)
4-0-2
Quarterfinals: Splinter Twin (2-1)
Semifinals: Aggro Loam (1-2 with a misplay from me in game three possibly costing me the match)

It also looks like Garth Brewe took down the Legacy Preservation Series 1k in Seattle with Burn this weekend, and another Burn player, Michael Wallio, made top eight. Congratulations to both of them! It seems like it's a good time to be playing Burn. :smile:

Been pondering Burn off and on for the last few months. I think I've come up with a breakthrough for my AI based deck building approach. I don't know when I'll have the time to actually build it because it involves a significant rewrite (hopefully I find the time to do it before summer) but I'm hopeful it will have good results. If things go as planned it should let the system evaluate new cards faster while giving more accurate results.