[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

After some brief testing of various lists, I've come to a few conclusions:

• Your list needs to be removal heavy. The format has far too many good creatures for you to be running less then 10 removal spells. It's just going to end badly for you.
• Ritual isn't as good with more than 2 colors. Lotus Petal has also sucked hard. I think our best option right now is 22-24 land and Diamond. It's a permanent, fuels Smallpox (if you're running it) like crazy and permanently gets around Wastelands and Moons. I've liked it alot in testing so far.
• With all the discard and removal, it's very difficult to get a proper threat count. That's the one facet of the list that I'm not happy with, although, unlike older lists of this deck, you run 6 guys who are quite large.
• With Hyppie cut, you need 10 discard spells if you really want any chance at putting pressure on them via discard.
• I'm not sure what the last removal slot should be. In my list it's Smallpox, but EE, Edict, Condemn, Demise, E Plague and Smother are all viable options. I think it's a metagame choice.
• The sideboard is a pain in the ass right now. I want to board the following mix of EE, Deed, Plague, Needle, Extirpate/Leyline, Dystopia and Teeg, but so many of those slots need to be 4ofs that it's difficult to determine what can be squeezed in.

Anyway, here's my current list (*s mean subject to change depending on metagame):
// Lands
5 [TE] Swamp (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [b] Scrubland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tombstalker*
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [US] Duress
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [TSP] Smallpox*
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top*

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle

Apologies for the somewhat spastic posting, I'm pretty tired atm.

So sinkhole has been underperforming? I can't say I'm not surprised but what can ya do.

I love the discard suite (3 duress, 3 seize, 4 hymn) it seems really very balanced, and is the best one I've played to date. The removal suite though... is 4 smallpox too heavy? It seems like 12 is an awful lot of removal, even though all but 4 of it doubles as land/hand D. Especially with 3 colors, I'm tempted to run at least 2 EE, and that+vindicate+STP=10 removal. This gives 2 extra cards? I dunno, I'm posting this from Costa Rica where the drinking age is 18 and I've had a good 14 shots worth of rum tonight.

Meh!

Wow, that's quite the drunkpostin' prowess. How's the trip(pin) been so far?

Anyway, the deck was built from scratch, I just didn't have room for Sinkholes. In a metagame full of control, they'd definately be coming back into the maindeck
As for smallpox I've liked it less and less the more I've tested it. EE is prolly coming back in the deck. I'm sort of nervous about going to 10 removal spells, and I think that's cutting it really close. Maybe 2 MD smother in those 2 other slots, or more creatures. I'm not really sure.

Also, EE has been realyl hit or miss for me lately, some games I lost because of it, where Petal would have worked out better. I guess more testing needs to be done.

I personally run this setup:

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
(4 Hypnotic Specter)

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Smallpox
4 Vindicate

My complete list looks nothing like yours (no Goyf/Mox/Top), but this suite has been working out well for me. EE is gold, and 2 (instead of 4) Smallpox reduces the problem of it showing up when I have board dominance. Sinkhole sucks.
I've been trying to squeeze SDT in my list somewhere but can't find the room/not willing to drop anything else. Think you can sell me on it?

Also, I don't really understand the Dark Ritual is no good with only two colors comment. I'm guessing it was a typo so I won't go on about it, but please fill me in if that was in fact what you meant to say.

This is a list I've been testing, its pretty balanced. I'm not sure if i'd rather have deed instead of explosives yet, but EE has been performing pretty well as a sweeper and as goyf fuel. I was also considering stripping the explosives for extra discard. The creature package has been quite strong as well. I prefer the enforcer over the Tombstalker as he hurts less when flipped by confidant, and he also doesn't interfere with goyf.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mox Diamond
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

mystic enforcer, that's an interesting option I had never seen being considered. it's ultimately better than tombstalker as long as you have thresh

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Originally Posted by Berzerked

Also, I don't really understand the Dark Ritual is no good with only two colors comment. I'm guessing it was a typo so I won't go on about it, but please fill me in if that was in fact what you meant to say.

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I was thinking of saying Rit isn't as good with 3 colors, or is much better with 2, and combined both thoughts. I need to proofread more.

Enforcer seems really interesting, especially because without Grunt, we get Threshold pretty quickly.

My reasoning is this. When you cast the stalker you more than likely are eating at least 4-5 cards. Potentially this could shrink an active goyf which is what you don't want to do. Enforcer flys like tombstalker, is fatter than tombstalker, and has pro black. Enforcer also does not disrupt the graveyard.

The drawbacks are that he might be a little more difficult to cast, which means the manabase needs to be a little more streamlined. He also has the potential to die to a Deed for 4, whereas the tombstalker would be much harder to deed. He could also die to an EE for 4, but thats unlikely, whereas the tombstalker is impossible to EE.

At the moment the manabase has functioned well and the mox diamonds are sufficient accerlation, turn 1 sinkholes are fun!

On Enforcer VS Stalker:

1) Mystic Enforcer doesn't cost 2.
2) Mystic Enforcer requires both of your splash colours.
3) Mystic Enforcer can't be played under Moon easily(you need 2 Diamond to do that) unless you play Windswept Heath, and Heath doesn't fetch Basic Swamp(Therefore making you vulnerable to Wastes).
4) Enforcer doesn't hurt opposing Goyfs

And, why is everyone cutting Nantuko Shade these days?

On Shade VS Tarmogoyf

Shade
1) Shade has no reliance on the Graveyard
2) Shade only costs B to cast, therefore an early Shade doesn't open you to Wastes or Moons
3) Shade can eventually trade with or even kill a Goyf. While Goyf can never do that.

Goyf
1) Goyf doesn't require mana to become big
2) You're splashing G anyway, with Mox Diamonds, for Gaddock Teeg
3) Less vulnerable to damage-based Removal

Both
1) Become big over time

Thus I believe sticking to Shade is the correct option for us, primarily because Shade can actually kill Goyfs.

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1) Mystic Enforcer doesn't cost 2.

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Neither does Tombstalker, he counts 2+6 cards which can possibly shrink an active goyf. There have been time when i casted Tombsalker for 4-5 in order to save cards to keep goyf large. The stage in the game in which you cast him you should have 4 mana no problem.

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2) Mystic Enforcer requires both of your splash colours.

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This can be a problem

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3) Mystic Enforcer can't be played under Moon easily(you need 2 Diamond to do that) unless you play Windswept Heath, and Heath doesn't fetch Basic Swamp(Therefore making you vulnerable to Wastes).

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It can be an issue, just be smart about mana fixing early to prepare for this option later in the game

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4) Enforcer doesn't hurt opposing Goyfs

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Id rather vindicate or plow an opposing goyf than attempt to shrink my own GY to thwart him. Its even worse when you are playing with Goyfs as well, the effect is symmetrical.

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1) Shade has no reliance on the Graveyard

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but it requires a heavy commitment to resources to make him worthwhile. resources that sometimes need to be committed to other things

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2) Shade only costs B to cast, therefore an early Shade doesn't open you to Wastes or Moons

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Then we are comparing apples to oranges, I'm saying we use Enforcer as a finisher. You wouldnt run an enforcer out as soon as possible, why would it be any different for a shade. I've got other committments im going to try and establish early game

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3) Shade can eventually trade with or even kill a Goyf. While Enforcer can never do that.

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Goyfs typically dont grow past 5/6, 6/7 is rare but it happens and at that point its more than likely over, plus we have our own goyfs

Enforcer worries me. He requires 2 off-color mana, which sort of makes him not so much difficult to cast (especially with diamond) but inconsistant. He does seem to be good at combatting stalkers and goyfs though. Definitely worth consideration!

And Whit3_Ghost:hit me up on Myspace, it's where ive been checking in frequently.

Between 8 fetch and Mox Diamonds, I fail to see why Enforcer is so hard to cast. Sure Tombstalker is fat and can cost as low as 2, but we don't run 4 of Enforcer or Stalker. They are finishers...so by the time we have our boards developed, we can drop it fairly easily. With Confidant drawing us more stuff, it shouldn't be hard to get GW at all.

You should be running 4 Tombstalkers, to be completely honest. He's amazing in this deck, and there's no reason "flipping him up with Confidant hurts" should be an excuse. I'm running 4 Top and 4 Confidant as my draw engine and have never come up with Tombstalker killing me from a flip. Most of the times where it would kill you, you've already lost anyways. I mean, most players won't let Confidant stick around unless they can win through it, where Tombstalker doesn't change anything either. If your confidant is killed, Your Tombstalker comes down a turn later, and you don't lose to that removal spell. Do you have Confidant and no Top? Well, you're probably winning, so taking 8 shouldn't be too much of a big deal. And even then, you can always 'sacrifice' the Confidant in an attack, or to Smallpox, or whatever. Anyways, Mystic Enforcer is worse than Tombstalker because it costs more, and that's the only reason. Everything Mystic Enforcer loses to, Tombstalker does too, but they don't have the time to get the spell down because you've been bombarding him with Removal and hand Disruption when you play Stalker two turns earlier (if not more, based on Enforcer's Colors)

Seriously, if you're going to play Enforcer, play blue to protect it. He costs 4 mana and doesn't win immediately, why do you play him over Stalker, which costs 2? This deck does not want to get to the late game at any means, so that's a terrible excuse too.

Smallpox is too symetrical for this deck. It wants to get ahead. There are too many situations in which smallpox isn't functional.

I would never play 4 Tombstalker just because I don't want to die off confidant because of him. Imagine you are on your way to a blowout win. You dropped a turn 1 confidant off a mox and a fetch. turn 2 you flip up a stalker and you are already at 11. you crack another fetch putting you to 10 and drop a hymn and thoughtseize on your opponent. Woops now you are at 8. Turn 3 you flip up another Tombstalker....GG you lose

Not my idea of good. Not to mention he is a finisher, why run 4 of your finisher when it will usually be a dead card from turns 1-4. I'd rather draw into my finisher than hold dead cards.

3 tombstalkers seems the right number to me and what I have always ran in my black decks. even with 3 sometimes you're stuck with too many in hand.

I'd still test the enforcers though. if the cost is too problematic, then I'd go back to stalkers. but in paper I like the enforcers a lot. and don't pretend like 8 damage out of your own bob isn't a lot, when there's fetching and thoughtseizes involved. SDT goes a long way in smoothing bob/stalker interaction though

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Originally Posted by Shtriga

3 tombstalkers seems the right number to me and what I have always ran in my black decks. even with 3 sometimes you're stuck with too many in hand.

I'd still test the enforcers though. if the cost is too problematic, then I'd go back to stalkers. but in paper I like the enforcers a lot. and don't pretend like 8 damage out of your own bob isn't a lot, when there's fetching and thoughtseizes involved. SDT goes a long way in smoothing bob/stalker interaction though

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In general, this is how one can think about how much of each card to include:
1: Fetchable or really expensive for the deck.
2: Expensive or situational for the deck, but want to eventually possibly draw into it, but not reliant upon it... helps a lot of it hits play.
3: Want to draw into it, but not necessarily have it in every hand.
4: Want to have it in your hand every single game.
5+: You're playing Relentless Rats. Don't.

I'd go with 3 for Tombstalkers. Having one in your opening hand is not quite win and awesome; it's quite a dead card for a while. If you clog your hand with them, you won't be able to cast. They aren't always cast for 2, though...

I like top alot, i just don't know what to cut to add in 4 tops. It would reduce the threat density of the deck...

Would 4 tops really be the way to go? I mean, after we get the first down, we usually do not want to see another. Unless it gets nailed by a Grip. Basically, all I wanna know is if 4 is the best number. I would think 2 or 3, but even then, Tombstalker is the only thing to fear.

So that's another hit against Stalker...if you do not want to take damage from Bob flipping a Stalker, is Top a must? The main arguement of Enforcer < Stalker seems to be that Enforcer costs 2 offcolors, and is always 4 while Stalker can ideally cost 2. But the arguement that Enforcer > Stalker is that Stalker can shrink Goyf and truly costs BB+6 cards in the yard. But if you fear hitting a Stalker, you might want to run top. That's an extra 2-4 cards you need in the deck to guarantee that you won't be losing 8 life.

But I think that's why people only run 2 fat finishers. Enforcer is always easier on the life, just not the cost. Stalker is much easier to cast, may shrink goyf, but is about as nasty.

So now the question is: Which finisher and how many? And what about Top?

Top is a great card, but its the type of card you want to see in your opening hand so it can fix the rest of your draws for the rest of the game.

Well, I'd not need Top in my opener, for I have so many better things that are absolutely crucial to do in my first few turns. I'd rather pick up a top in the 3-4th turn, or somewhere in the mid game, where I have nothing left to cast.