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Cruise hit mana denial even harder than discard in BUG Delver I think. With most decks just packed with cheap cantrips and Treasure Cruises it was incorrect to expect wastelands and stifles to take someone off of mana for the majority of the game. I think both of those cards went way down in value. Now with Cruise gone again, I'll be going BACK to my stifle BUG lists that I was really loving.
I'm considering getting my 3rd Underground Sea to play BUG Delver. How important is the fourth US to the Hymn/Liliana build of the deck?
In this build I always played 4 UGsea, 2 Bayou, and 1 Trop, next to 4 Wasteland and 9 fetches and had great success (20 land 7 duals). I think most would agree that is classic Team America. More fetches and less duals (19 land with 6 duals) was more important during the Cruise-era in my opinion, but I don't think you'd notice so long as you keep 3(or 4) UG sea, 2 Bayou, and 1 Trop with the Lily/Hymn build.Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
I prefer a 19 Land, 8 Fetch 3/2/2 Sea/Trop/Bayou split + 4 Wasetland for versions requiring a larger black commitment, but that's totally a playstyle/personal preference thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallacy
EDIT:
This is the build I'm going to start testing from:
Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
Draw/Manipulation (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time
1 Sylvan Library
Disruption (18)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spell Pierce
Land (19)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
Thanks for the help :) I'll stick to 3 US for now then (or 2 and a Watery Grave).
For starters, I think I'm going to play something like this, which was a combination of my pre-TC deck and TC deck:
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach (considering 3-2 split between Hymns and Thoughtsieze)
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure (1 could be a flex card TBD)
1 Spell Pierce (possible flex card TBD, can always pitch to FoW)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bayou
1 Trop
4 UG Sea
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 K Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 V Clique
A few things I'm looking to test:
-Split Hymn and Thoughtseize 3-2, or just run 4 Hymn?
-1 Tombstalker? 2 Tombstalkers?
-Does 1 DTT fit in here? Perhaps not if trying to get 1-2 Tombstalkers in the mix.
-Need to make room for 1 Sylvan Library in the SB
-Maelstrom Pulse in SB, maybe against Miracles and other annoying cards like Jace
-Creeping Tarpit becomes more viable as a 1-of
A few observations thus far:
-19 land seemed correct previously and will try again
-Decent anti-combo / Storm with access to countermagic and V Clique
-Decent removal package against Maverick and Elves with 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Golgari Charm, 4 Disfigures, 3 Liliana's
-Miracles MU looks OK, could use another K Grip, a Creeping Tar Pit, or Maelstrom Pulse though
Open for feedback.
I would stay away from DTT, gonna be hard to cast, but might be a good 1 of to pitch to FOW. If you don't use Tombstalker, you might want to try 2-3 Bobs.
This is reasonable to test as there are some decks against which specificity with your discard is important. I think that spending more than 4 slots on Hymn/Thoughtseize is probably wrong because of how bad it is if the game goes long, so a 3-1 split might be better. At least that's my intuition. You might want to try Dismember or Dimir Charm in at least one of the Disfigure slots, too. My own gut feeling is that you don't want to spend more than 1 MD slot on something that's dead against combo and Miracles and mostly dead against things like Jund, UWx Blade and Shardless. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Baneslayers that have sprung up in Blade and Miracles SBs stay, so Dismember might be the best call. It's a flex slot though, and there are a lot of options to test there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallacy
I've never been impressed with Tombstalker in this deck. He's huge and evasive, but he also isn't castable until turn 4 at the earliest, and he's awful in the face of Jace, which is one of the only cards that matters against Miracles and is straight-up gamebreaking against Shardless. I'd like at least 1 Dig, possibly 2, but I'll see how testing goes. TNN is usually better all-around as a 13th threat than Tombstalker, especially in the face of Rest in Peace or Scavenging Ooze.Quote:
-1 Tombstalker? 2 Tombstalkers?
-Does 1 DTT fit in here? Perhaps not if trying to get 1-2 Tombstalkers in the mix.
I'd probably cut the SB Liliana for the Library, and the Flusterstorms and maybe one Vendilion Clique for a Pithing Needle, the Maelstrom Pulse, and if you cut a Clique the third Spell Pierce, or...Quote:
-Need to make room for 1 Sylvan Library in the SB
-Maelstrom Pulse in SB, maybe against Miracles and other annoying cards like Jace
a piece of Miracles-specific hate if that 's what you're in the market for. Zur's Weirding is insane against Miracles by itself, and dramatically amplifies the value of your discard against them. The second SB Clique slot is also the place I'd be looking to insert a Tar Pit if that's something you're interested in. All that being said, Clique, 2 Pierce, Pulse, Library, and Grip are all great general-purpose SB cards that come in against a variety of matchups, but the third Liliana, second Clique, and Tarpit are really only good against Miracles and other extremely grindy matchups like Shardless, and I'm not a big fan of overboarding for already favorable matchups.Quote:
-Creeping Tarpit becomes more viable as a 1-of
A few observations thus far:
-Miracles MU looks OK, could use another K Grip, a Creeping Tar Pit, or Maelstrom Pulse though
Spell Snare is probably going to make a comeback at this point. There are too many 2cc bombs in the best lists at this point. So Thoughtseize over Hymn may still be a good play. BUG only has 9 2cc's that can be countered in most lists anyway. Maybe it's ok to just take the 1-for-1 trades on the Hymns and live with them.
You can test it, but I don't see why people would be running more Snares than they were pre-Cruise. If anything, we'll see fewer 2 CMC must-counters than before because there's retrenchment from both Reanimator and UWr decks because they're both soft to BGx decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I've missed about a month and a half of playing due to illness, holidays, birth of a child, etc, but it looks like this week I can get back on the horse.
One reason I like a 3/2 split of Hymn and Seize is that a first turn Seize, second turn Hymn, with Daze can be real devestating versus most opponents.
I'll try the split and see how I like it.
I don't know that BUG should be running Spell Snare but I think lists facing BUG should be running a couple of copies. Having Abrupt Decay as a catch-all manages things that many lists just can't manage well. It doesn't resolve the problem of how best to defend against a wide range of 2cc threats but Spell Pierce catches enough of them that you can live with the overflow.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Spell Snare is not a good enough reason to justify cutting Hymn. If they happen to counter Hymn, it's a 1-for-1 exchange -- same as if you were to Thoughtseize their Spell Snare, except you're also losing 2 life.
While I do expect cards like Jace and Ancestral Visions to make a comeback in the absence of Treasure Cruise, I think the 2-for-1 power of Hymn is better in this deck than targeted discard. Those sort of cards tend to work much better in UB(x) combo decks, or midrange decks with Snapcaster. For TA, only in a combo-heavy metagame would I want to run a 3/2 split in the main 60.
I am definitely thinking that Dark Confidant could reappear in creature slots 13-14, as I expect UW(r) Miracles to become (more) popular.
Congrats on the kid, and definitely post your results. I'm a little skeptical about five MD discard spells given that they just get pitched to Liliana in the late game most of the time, but we'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I didn't think that you were suggesting Snare for TA, but my point still stands - with the possible exception of a 1-of from RUG, I don't expect people to run many Snares. The card is just too narrow. In any case, wcm8 is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Thanks, been a bit of an adventure. Well, I think I have tried 5 before, I really want to hit them with something on turns 1-2, at least to see what they were, or are, working with.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Right now, I threw together a list, it is pretty much stock, but I am trying the 3/2 Hymn/TS split and a 1-of DtT and Tombstalker. It's basically what I played before the delve spells came out, just with a DtT added in.
If Dig doesn't seem that good, I'd be happy to play Confidant, but I don't think I want both.
Hey Sourcers. Pretty excited that TC got the banhammer; now I can continue to Hymn and Waste my opponents with gusto. Here is the list I expect to run for the SCG PIQ this Sunday in DC. I expect the field to include a lot of Miracles, Elves, Death and Taxes, RUG, Sneak and Show, and Shardless BUG. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
9 Fetches
4 Wasteland
Board:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Looks pretty good. To keep our tapout play style I would add a 4th Daze to the main. I'm not keen on the Toxic Deluge in the SB since you already have 3 Disfigures and 2 Golgari Charm. Envelop, eh. The second Jace is fun, but I'm not sure how necessary. A Kgrip or Flusterstorm would be two more diverse cards in the SB, that's my personal pref.
So, I threw together a sideboard last night, not knowing what my local meta has been looking like. I know the usual suspects will be there, which means at least one Lands deck. How do you feel about boarding versus that in general? I think I will be packing a Surgical Extraction, since it can be useful versus Reanimator as well. Possibly one more card? Did anyone ever like Winter Orb in testing? I saw it in a few lists and it seems interesting, since it can come in versus Miracles as well.
I've always liked Extirpate/Surgical against Lands; they're like 5th Deathrites that can't be killed with Punishing Fire. I tend to over-board for graveyard matchups, so I've been on 2 Cage and 1 Surgical, but that might be overkill. Winter Orb is fantastic against Miracles, but honestly I haven't tested it against Lands. It could be really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Has anyone considered Dead Weight over disfigure?
The sorcery speed is lame; but the fact it basically "kills" Serra Avenger, is an Enchant for Goyf, can win Goyf stalls at no risk, and similar; makes it seem pretty Ok. In a discard build (tap out) I could see it being roughly as effective as Difigure but being dead less often.
Even attaching it to Griselbrand gives you a good chance of your Goyf being able to just attack through (assuming an artifact, walker, enchant, or tribal has made it to the grave.)
I get that it doesn't flip delver, but if it's a 2-of or something anyway I don't consider that a strong argument. Sorcery vs. instant doesn't seem important enough in this deck either. It just seems like it'd be a dead card a lot less often and Goyf pumps are always welcome in my book.