[OLD] UGw Threshold

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Originally Posted by raharu

I thought Thoughtseize > DC too, but aparently I was wrong... Twice. Anyway, is CD playable in the 5c and bw lists? I've never seen 5c play it, and most 'accepted' lists don't play it, so... What then?

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The reason why you don't run Confidant in the 5c lists is probably the lifeloss with Thoughtseize. Also, I don't think you should run it because it does nothing to contribute to Counterbalance soft-lock. Thoughtseize can at least force it down so that you can ride some random dork for the win. Confidant helps replace losses, but ever since the introduction of Thoughtseize, I didn't feel a need it would do anything because Thoughtseize already keep you from being in a bad situation in which you need a way to recover by solving them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

The reason why you don't run Confidant in the 5c lists is probably the lifeloss with Thoughtseize.

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Rather the lifeloss with City of Brass. I run Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize together in my UGb build (with Counterbalance) and don't have any problems, Dark Confidant fits just perfect into lists with Counterbalance (because of Sensei's Divining Top).

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Also, I don't think you should run it because it does nothing to contribute to Counterbalance soft-lock. Thoughtseize can at least force it down so that you can ride some random dork for the win.

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I don't get this, Dark Confidant wins against matchups where you have to generate Cardadvantage, because it does it extremely well. Especially the mirrormatch.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Rather the lifeloss with City of Brass. I run Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize together in my UGb build (with Counterbalance) and don't have any problems, Dark Confidant fits just perfect into lists with Counterbalance (because of Sensei's Divining Top).

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Truth. In the limited testing I've done with 5c, I've never been happy to see CoB. Ever. But the point is that CoB + Thoughtseize + Confi = obscene amounts of hemorage... Yet somehow I'm still compelled to test it :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Adan

I don't get this, Dark Confidant wins against matchups where you have to generate Cardadvantage, because it does it extremely well. Especially the mirrormatch.

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True, but Thoughtseize is better in most regards because it solves problems before they happen, i.e. it takes FoF before it's cast, takes Crucuble before it finishes the Waste-lock, takes Win-Cons/ threats, takes Counterbalances, takes Chalices (if you're lucky/ on the play), and just generally solves the problems that will generate CA or become serious impairments.

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Originally Posted by Ob Freely

I don't really see this as much of a debate. Thoughtseize is a fantastic card in nearly every matchup. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card in several matchups, but is a pretty terrible card in several matchups, as well.

The bottom line is that I don't even consider playing Threshold without Thoughtseize, anymore, unless I really want to play Blood Moons. That single card has completely obviated all of the old UGw and UGr lists, and you could never say that about Dark Confidant.

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I have to completely agree with all of these points and feel the UGw and UGr lists have been made obsolete by now, unless you're going for a dedicated mana-screwing plan (Moon effects, Wasteland, etc.).

Here's what I've been playing and it is a round-house kick of awesomeness:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant

* 1 Open Slot *

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle

With all of the life-loss effects, you're going to take some damage, but the return on your investment is substantial enough that it rarely matters.

I'm not what sure what to do with that open slot. Recently, the list was -1 Thoughtseize, -1 CB#4/Enforcer/Open; +2 Spell Snare, but I'm not 100% on the Spell Snares.

Bardo: why not make the jump to 5c for a stronger sideboard? Do you find that it's not worth running City of Brass to support the Red options in the SB? Personally I've always hated CoB and have only used it because I'm poor/ too lazy to make a manabase that wouldn't need it. The life loss is rather cumbersome.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Rather the lifeloss with City of Brass. I run Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize together in my UGb build (with Counterbalance) and don't have any problems, Dark Confidant fits just perfect into lists with Counterbalance (because of Sensei's Divining Top).

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Lifeloss is still life loss. You either build the deck for more raw power (running Confidant) or you build the deck to become more flexible (5c color mana base).

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I don't get this, Dark Confidant wins against matchups where you have to generate Cardadvantage, because it does it extremely well. Especially the mirrormatch.

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Yes, but if you're a skilled player, you should already beat the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

Yes, but if you're a skilled player, you should already beat the mirror.

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Skilled players are 60-40 against the mirror, even if the mirror is another skilled player.

I'm with Adan on this one. Thoughtseize is a great tool, but it's inferior to Dark Confidant. Thoughtseize smooths your game plan, but DC lets you win games you just had no business winning in the first place.

EDIT: I just realized, why are we having this discussion (or rather, presenting each of our positions) in the White thread?

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

Lifeloss is still life loss. You either build the deck for more raw power (running Confidant) or you build the deck to become more flexible (5c color mana base).



Yes, but if you're a skilled player, you should already beat the mirror.

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A) why not both?

B) when building a list, skill shouldn't influence your decisions. Either a card does something better, or it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

I'm with Adan on this one. Thoughtseize is a great tool, but it's inferior to Dark Confidant. Thoughtseize smooths your game plan, but DC lets you win games you just had no business winning in the first place.

EDIT: I just realized, why are we having this discussion (or rather, presenting each of our positions) in the White thread?

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Yes, I admit, DC is great, but I don't think it's that great if you draw it midgame when the opponent has Counterbalance/Top active. I will admit, DC > Thoughtseize early game in the mirror, but Thoughtseize helps you attack the opponent where he's weak, whether that may be taking a Goyf, CB component, or just denying him of anything of importance in general like counters.

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

Skilled players are 60-40 against the mirror, even if the mirror is another skilled player.

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60/40, is huge. Although I will admit, Threshold mirrors have gotten very volatile because of the Counterbalance, Goyfs, and such.

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Originally Posted by raharu

A) why not both?

B) when building a list, skill shouldn't influence your decisions. Either a card does something better, or it doesn't.

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A). Yes, but then you eschewed flexibility. So much for that idea of running cards like Gaddock-Teeg, Pyroclasm, REB and such in the Sideboard.

B). No, but what I was pointing out is that the 5c Lists are the optimal decklists.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

A). Yes, but then you eschewed flexibility. So much for that idea of running cards like Gaddock-Teeg, Pyroclasm, REB and such in the Sideboard.

B). No, but what I was pointing out is that the 5c Lists are the optimal decklists.

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A) Why would you suddenly be unable to do any of that?

B) Truth, though I'd rather play Ugbw and no CoB, but that's just personal preference.

couldnt a jitte be thrown in to counteract the lifeloss, or maybe if your metagame allows it, a kitchen finks

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Originally Posted by Voidsmith

couldnt a jitte be thrown in to counteract the lifeloss, or maybe if your metagame allows it, a kitchen finks

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Yeah, I've found that playing one finks, one loxdon hierarch and one harmonize really give the deck some great recover effect from deed and confidant. harmonize is a great card to crack standstill with as they negate each other sinch they dont play daze.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

I'm with Adan on this one. Thoughtseize is a great tool, but it's inferior to Dark Confidant. Thoughtseize smooths your game plan, but DC lets you win games you just had no business winning in the first place.

EDIT: I just realized, why are we having this discussion (or rather, presenting each of our positions) in the White thread?

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I think you have that mixed up, Thoughtseize is the card that lets you win games you have no business winning. I have been able to screw over Ichorid many times this way, along with simply winning against the most terrifying control decks imaginable. From experience I can tell you that DC is a card that has to be delt with by the opponent, and is, quite easily is in this format. Its very good but not the main reason to run black in my oppinion.

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Originally Posted by raharu

LOLWHAT? Jitte can't stick to Mongoose, Finks isn't agressive enough, Hierarch is just infinately worse than Enforcer, and Harmonize is GG and 4 mana. Sounds like not a plan.

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your opinion. which one is better if you need life? being able to maintain life totals and cards is most important!

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Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101

your opinion. which one is better if you need life? being able to maintain life totals and cards is most important!

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Ajani Goldmane or Pulse of the Fields, actually, which are still incredibly poor choices. If you're in a pinch and need life, Swords to Plowshares doesn't say non-Confidant creatures, and the point of running strong cards that create life-loss is the concept that said cards prevent further life-loss from an opponent's threats. l2deck philosophize.

EDIT: all of those options still suck. I'd rather play fucking Nourish.

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Originally Posted by raharu

Ajani Goldmane, actually, which is still an incredibly poor choice. If you're in a pinch and need life, Swords to Plowshares doesn't say non-Confidant creatures.

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no, you need beatdown! if we use ajani we need more creatures, although it does pump a goyf and win goyf wars.

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Originally Posted by raharu

Ajani Goldmane or Pulse of the Fields, actually, which are still incredibly poor choices. If you're in a pinch and need life, Swords to Plowshares doesn't say non-Confidant creatures, and the point of running strong cards that create life-loss is the concept that said cards prevent further life-loss from an opponent's threats. l2deck philosophize.

EDIT: all of those options still suck. I'd rather play fucking Nourish.

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no, you need a life gain engine. if you no lifegain engine, you need the beatdown. why would you run Pulse of the Fields?

Landstill uses Ajani. You don't need more creatures, although Ajani would make Mongeese and 'Goyfs more incredible agaisnt Goblins. Also, you don't need life gain. The NoVA 5c lists didn't have any lifegain in them at all, none of the lists that actually win games run lifegain, and threshold has never run lifegain in any incarnation, outside of StP on one of your own large creatures, which is a rather archaic, if still occasionally useful tatic.

Also, I mention PotF because it's the perfect card for the role you want it to play. It recurs, isn't narrow, isn't terrible like Finks, isn't outclassed by another card/ unviable because of curve reasons like Hierarch, isn't super-situational like 'Jitte, and doesn't suck like Nourish (which is the only viable life-gain option that has been presented, sadly). Unfortunately, it's 1WW, meaning it's unplayable in 4+ color lists, useless in a UGw list, and has hard color and curve requirements (think: it recurs. You want it to recur. You'll have to play it a little more than every other turn in the time that it's relevant. That's a lot of CB mana wasted).

To clarify, I wouldn't play Pulse. It sucks, and while it's an unplayable pile in threshold, it's one of the better options as far as life gain goes. Do note though, that PotF is still a bad card in threshold, as is dedicated lifegain in general.