[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkanelf

Maybe I will test the Syphon Sliver but i can not imagine this is a good choice. It costs 3 Mana -> Bad for Aether Vial and it is no pitch target for Force of Will. I do not think its power can negate its negative aspects.

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TNN in Merfolk is 3 CMC.
This doesn't mean TNN is bad.

Multiple aether vials do happen sometimes as land floodings. You will have plenty opportunities to play Syphon.

We are not trying to pretend playing a tempo game with Slivers, rather a good ol' aggro one.

I'm glad we can exchange ideas.

Anyway, I still think we should also get rid of BS (and I might be wrong):

Pros of dropping BS:
- Cavern + Hive + a smart mix of lands should be enough to reach the perfect manabase we deserve without needing BS
- Density seems to me more valuable than quality in an aggro deck.
- Other decks are using BS better (profit more) than we do. Instead of joining them, hating (chalice/whatever) them sounds like an overall better plan.
- Manlands are already a good way to spend any mana floodings that may occur (I even tend to believe that the Hive was created to give another out in these flooding scenarii).
- Less BS might mean less fetch -> less mana death (against stifle)

Drawbacks of dropping BS
- No "Hand fixing" (average starting hand, mana floodings etc...)
- Less color fix (less fetch) -> more color death (unless we find a *perfect* ratio)
- Fewer blue *count* for FOW -> this doesn't mean we should not try to replace BS with another blue card (instead of chalice for example)

Weighting the pros and cons of playing BS in Slivers will certainly take time and a large amount of games.
Finding the *card*, to replace it, will take even longer.

Hat-off to anyone coming up with a solution.

Anyway, let's continue sharing some ideas.

Edit

After reading back some of the Merfolk thread, Phantasmal Image could be a potential guest instead of BS.
I know some of us has already used them.

Good posts, guys.

I like your list, Orkanelf. I take it as a good sign that people independently working on the deck can come up with such similar lists. I would encourage you to give Syphon Sliver a serious try, though. I've been finding it to be pretty amazing. As Ralf said, sometimes you have an extra Vial, and it's okay to tick one of them up to 3 for this. But, most of the time, I simply hard-cast it. And thanks to Cavern, it always sticks. Sometimes it's just win-more. Sometimes, it legitimately turns a game around, or stabilizes a shaky position. You put it in play and swing once, and immediately go from being a tempo behind to a tempo ahead.

@Ralf: I need to test a lot more, but the manabase I posted in my latest list seems to be working well, so far. With the removal of Daze, I was able to cut a couple of islands and shove in more sliver lands. But I think I'm still running enough islands and fetches to make Brainstorm (and the occasional Spell Pierce) good. As I noted, though, the list is at the point where it's a pretty simple matter to devote 4-6 sideboard slots to a "transformation" strategy. Either run the Brainstorms and swap in Chalices as appropriate, or vice versa.

An additional benefit of Brainstorm is shuffling away lands against Burn to protect against Price of Progress. (If we're saving FoW for Sulfuric Vortex, we need to limit exposure to the potentially painful Price.) Of course it's hard to shuffle away nonbasics while fetching nonbasics when you only have one Island to fetch! Even in this case, Chalice might be better to blank the 20-24 1-drops that they run. Chalice on 1 and on 2 is effectively GG for them, as they can't then Smash, and apparently no one plays Spree anymore. (If more and more people run Chalice though, this might change.)

I'm thinking along Death and Taxes or Merfolk lines for this build: we're not searching for bullets: we run threat-dense so that any card we draw is the right card, then we punish decks that rely on cantrips much like the Thalias and Chalices do in D&T/Merfolk. I still think Sylvan Library could make more sense than BS here for library manipulation.

Hey

I do not think BS ist such a problem. I think this is one of the best cards for this Deck.

- Cavern + Hive + a smart mix of lands should be enough to reach the perfect manabase we deserve without needing BS
Ok bot it is an allrounder. I see that Brainstorm is less great if you play the Sliver Hive

- Density seems to me more valuable than quality in an aggro deck.
This is the best Carddraw in Legacy and you are able to support it with fetchis. In best case it is like an Ancestral Recall. When I play the Brainstorm, i want to draw 3 Sliver and put 2 Lands or the 2nd or 3th Aether Vial back onto the Library and than shuffle my Library. If you do not want to play Brainstorm, you should play the 5c creature only list. So you have Density and quality ;-)
Furthermore in a Combo MU you do not want to draw the 5th or 6th sliver, you want to have the Counter you need, so there Quality is much more important.

- Other decks are using BS better (profit more) than we do. Instead of joining them, hating (chalice/whatever) them sounds like an overall better plan.
I think we are just one of the Decks using BS great (^^). When you play a chalice this is also on cc2. Also you would hit so much of our cards (Flusterstorm, Spellpierce, Aethervial, Galerider Sliver)

- Manlands are already a good way to spend any mana floodings that may occur (I even tend to believe that the Hive was created to give another out in these flooding scenario).
Ok but you can avoid mana flooding with a nice Brainstorm ;-)

- Less BS might mean less fetch -> less mana death (against stifle)
like you said: Less color fix (less fetch) -> more color death (unless we find a *perfect* ratio). We only need 2 lands so I think color is much more important than mana.


I think the only situation BS is not a good card is: you have a great hand (fe: 4 Sliver) you play brainstorm, draw 3 more Sliver ok but what exactly are you worried about? Everything is great!
Also notice that BS is a great option against discard.

You see, I am Convinced of Brainstorm :D

@Ralf: Phantasmal Image seems like a natural fit. However, don't forget, you won't be able to use the Caverns or Hives to generate the blue mana for it. Well, unless, you play a Cavern and name "Illusion," but that doesn't seem advisable.

This is what I have in mind for now:

1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Ancient Ziggurat
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Mana Confluence
2 Reflecting Pool
4 Sliver Hive
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault

3 Hibernation Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Syphon Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Æther Vial
4 Force of Will

SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Meddling Mage

I do not play the Image because it does not fit with shroud from the crystalline sliver..
But this is a Great Option against f.e. Show and Tell Decks.

Volt did you see an impact of the 3rd Syphon?

BTW your Primer is very good, thanks! I had a nice time reading it since the recent changes.

For the BS discussion I will try your build before I comment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by orkanelf

I do not play the Image because it does not fit with shroud from the crystalline sliver..
But this is a Great Option against f.e. Show and Tell Decks.

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That's the beauty of Phantasmal Image.

It does not target so it does not care at all about Crystalline.

I would even add, Slivers might be the best deck (save Merfolk + TNN) for playing Phantasmal, because of Crystalline !

Not to mention the synergies with your deck:
- Phantasmal can be MM n° 5 to 7
- Phantasmal can be Lord n°13 to 15
- Phantasmal can be Thalia n°2 to 4 (if your first is getting killed, vialed in response, you get to choose the Thalia that stays in...)

That list looks good, Ralf. A little light on the blue, but probably just enough.

And, yeah, Phantasmal Image probably works even better in our deck than it does in Merfolk, at least in theory. I do worry that they'll be awkward to cast with your manabase. Are you going to test that list? You'll have to let us know how it goes.

@Ultra: Thanks! Glad you liked the updated primer! It still needs some updating, though, truth be told.

And, yeah, I'm pretty sure 3 Syphons is the correct number. They're just so good, and I don't mind drawing multiples.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volt

That list looks good, Ralf. A little light on the blue, but probably just enough.

And, yeah, Phantasmal Image probably works even better in our deck than it does in Merfolk, at least in theory. I do worry that they'll be awkward to cast with your manabase. Are you going to test that list? You'll have to let us know how it goes.

@Ultra: Thanks! Glad you liked the updated primer! It still needs some updating, though, truth be told.

And, yeah, I'm pretty sure 3 Syphons is the correct number. They're just so good, and I don't mind drawing multiples.

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1) Blue count is at a healthy 18 cards.
2) 8 blue sources (4 fetch 4 blue) + 4 cavern (in a desperate case) + 4 vial. I believe there will be some hard times to cast it but...it seems reasonable.
3) I will test it
4) Sideboard is still a pile. Not sure about the Relic. Replace it with Faerie Macabre !


Edit:

After 20 games, yesterday night, against RUG and BUG (10 each), I feel the deck need a 21th land.
When there was no mana issue (read mana death), the deck is a blast to play.

I had 7 games where I did not even compete because of mana death (wasteland/double wasteland)
2 games where I managed to win through color death.
11 games where it was "no match" for tempo players.

I'll try to revamp the mana base a bit.

Edit 2:

What do you think of this manabase ?:

1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Mana Confluence
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Ancient Ziggurat

- 15 sources to cast Galerider T1
- 18 sources to cast vial T1
- 20 sources to cast chalice T2
- 14 sources to cast a multicolored Sliver by T2 (not counting Tundra/Trop + slivo mana)

I feel the last criterion might need further adjustment. But I don't know what to do.
I also feel Trop could be replaced by a Savannah, dropping T1 Galerider to 14 sources but this would ease casting lords by T2 (any mix of Sinew/Muscle/Predatory).

Any ideas ?

Oh, hey, look, you edited in some results!

So, if I read that correctly, you went 13-7 against Delver, with all 7 losses coming to manabase disruption? Because that pretty closely mirrors my experience. Basically, 1 out of 3 or 4 games, you die because they hit you with multiple pieces of their Wasteland/Stifle suite and you don't draw enough lands to recover. Otherwise you win.

In your case, I think adding a land is a good idea, since you cut Brainstorms. Unfortunately, things start looking a little janky once you get to the point where you're considering lands outside the usual duals/basics/fetches/hives/caverns pool. But you gotta do what you gotta do. The lands you picked seemed reasonable. I'll take a look at what's available later and see if I can come up with any decent suggestions.

I'm tempted to call 66% good enough and focus on other matchups. Losing all your games for a single reason is a problem, but not a major one if you're still favored in the matchup. After all, if every matchup were 66% the only deck we'd have to worry about would be the mirror.

How about Imperial Taxes, or postboard Miracles? Burn with 4 maindeck PoP? Before calling the admittedly weak manabase a serious problem, we should see if it's a crippling liability against decks with Moon effects and other forms of nonbasic hate. Aside: I dig the Choke-resistance of this heavily blue manabase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

I'm tempted to call 66% good enough and focus on other matchups. Losing all your games for a single reason is a problem, but not a major one if you're still favored in the matchup. After all, if every matchup were 66% the only deck we'd have to worry about would be the mirror.

How about Imperial Taxes, or postboard Miracles? Burn with 4 maindeck PoP? Before calling the admittedly weak manabase a serious problem, we should see if it's a crippling liability against decks with Moon effects and other forms of nonbasic hate. Aside: I dig the Choke-resistance of this heavily blue manabase.

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I won't draw meaningful mathematical expectations on 20 games.
The problem I see is that Aggro decks should prey on Tempo ones.

Among the decks you have evoked, I only fear Imperial Taxes.
- Miracle is T1 and the best deck in the format. They usually play 2 Blood Moon / Back to basic and yet they have to deal with Vial + Chalice. You will lose games because of a resolved Blood Moon but they cannot have it all every game. Cavern & vial remain a beating in this MU.

- Imperial Taxes is a less common D&T deck. It is playing vial as well and unless they shut down their own vial with revoker (which could be annoying), you should be able to go bigger. Equipments are a beating but Crystalline should prevent you from losing board position to Jitte. Magus of the Moon is definitely a major issue.

- Burn: Pop is a problem but so is Syphon. While facing a burn player, I would stop playing lands when I have reached 3. Not to mention how much a chalice set on 1 is a pain for them G1.


These are only "assessments" and require testing "due diligences". Nevertheless, I won't be surprised at all if those MU are around 45 / 55, after proper testing.

Slivers won't be a "Jack of all trades" deck and I'm not pretending that we will get something competitive with this archetype.
Although, I do think there is room for lots of improvements.

Let's try to make Slivers a good T2 deck, at least !

Edit: I have to replace Flusterstorm after having dropped so many blue land. Any ideas ?

You seem to be disagreeing with my words, but not my intentions. My only explanation is that I'm not writing clearly enough. :laugh:

I agree that more testing is required, especially against other decks and other pilots. 20 games against Delver isn't conclusive, but it's a start, and likely more than the build has gotten against the other decks I mentioned. My suggestion was not to stop testing Delver matchups, but to also cast a wider net to get initial gameplay impressions against a variety of decks.

I agree that we should try to make as viable a Legacy Slivers deck as possible. I know I've been critical, but my intent is analytical criticism striving for improvement, not just crapping on everything "just for lulz."

I'll counter one point as devil's advocate. Let's say that we should beat Delver tempo decks simply because of how the archetypes tend to interact. If you're playing what's currently an unoptimized tier 2-3 Sliver list against best-in-class Delver decks and winning roughly two thirds of the time, I don't think that's too horrible. Sure there's likely room for improvement against Delver, but again let's look at the wider field as well.

Anyway, 2c. I'm just armchair-commentating here because I have no time to test this deck, so regardless of what happens I'm grateful for all your efforts!

Replacement for Flusterstorm: Mindbreak Trap? It's pretty specific to the combo matchup of course. But with so many of your lands generating colorless or creature-only mana, you'll have to rely mostly on creatures, artifacts, and free spells for your sideboard.

Also, I agree with you on your comments regarding matchups, as well as expectations. I think we've probably got a good, solid Tier 2 deck here. I think if we optimize the list, and a few more people start playing it, it will start sneaking into Top 8s here and there, ala Patraw in 2014.

Btw, once you've more or less settled on a list, if you find a list that you like, I'd like to include it in the OP, as sort of a maximum-aggro Countersliver variant. If you're amenable, of course.

Hi

I will take those 75 to the local tomorrow evening.

Expect MUD, Burn, various Delver, S&T, Reanimator and Counter Top control.



4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island

4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce

4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver

SB: 3 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap


Still unsure about the SB:
- Harmonic for MUD, CounterTop, Burn (Bridge, Eidolon), OmniShow
- Priest: Show, Reanimator
- RiP : Reanimator, BUG, Dredge
- Chalice: Burn, various when OTP, Elves
- Needle: MUD (Ugin), Wasteland decks
- Trap: Storm

Considering: Grafdigger's Cage, StP, swan song, maybe a 4th Harmonic?
What about RiP vs Relic or Tormod's Crypt?

Good luck Ultra.

I should tell you that I've been doing a lot more testing, and I've soured on Sliver Hive again. I know I've been waffling on that a lot, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, the Spell Pierces haven't really been working out for me, mostly because I find it very difficult to keep the mana open for it. This deck has a tendency to get behind early, so you need to tap out a lot. But you'll have to let me know what your experience with them is.

I have a new "suggested build" in the OP. I replaced the 2 Spell Pierces with Ponders and made room for a third. To me, Ponder is like a mini-tutor. The amount of games you'll win by Pondering into a Galerider is not insignificant. Or on turn 3, when you've just ticked your Vial up to 2, Ponder into Crystalline Sliver makes things so much better. Also, digging out of 1-land hands. It really works quite wonderfully in this deck. I'm not really sure why people have gone away from it in the last few years.

You and me both. I keep wistfully posting about our glorious 8-fetch, 8-cantrip past.

Newer printings push out cards that people think are inferior, and I have to imagine that they're right as the deck has seen net improvement due to cards like Syphon, Galerider, and Mutavault. These changes don't come without downsides though!

Sorry to keep bringing up Merfolk, but like I said it's useful to look at what works. Merfolk commonly runs 21 land, 12 of which can cast colored (non-creature) spells. Countersliver has a set of Brainstorms, which people often use to justify removal of a land*. On the other hand, it needs three or four colors, which IMO justifies the addition of a land. tl;dr If you ever see yourself having mana issues, 21 land is likely worth consideration. To satisfy my sig, maybe a 4th Hibernation.

I think the deck really does want either 0-mana (FoW) or fire-and-forget (Chalice) disruption, since it needs mana to cast creatures sans Vial, activate Mutavaults, etc. For that reason, it doesn't surprise me that Spell Pierce isn't working out. As you've mentioned, one of the best uses for countermagic is sticking and protecting your Vial, and Spell Pierce can't help stick a T1 Vial. Merfolk players keep jumping on and off the Daze bandwagon though (playing 2-3 if any) so the countermagic slots seem really fluid in these decks.

* I think this only works if you're running a ton of fetches to refresh the topdeck. I'm not convinced that 4 Brainstorms with 5-6 fetches can justify the removal of a land.

Adding a 21st land might be correct, especially given the abundance of Wastelands in the format. In my case, I would probably add a 7th fetch:

4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
7 fetches
1 island
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

And, yeah, I think non-free countermagic just doesn't work very well in this deck. Cantrips are fine, because you can cast them on your schedule.