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So we shouldn't use Imp and Tribe because of a MD card that does little to nothing againt us and a SB card we can just DDD thru, and we shouldn't use Breakthrough and Careful Study because of REB? I don't see what realistic hate Imp and Tribe open the deck to short of a blind Pithing Needle, if anything you're make the deck more resilient to hate visa vi Tormod's Crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
This thread needs infinitely less hyperbole.
The deck ISN'T 95% complete, because the sideboard is EVERYTHING at this point. RGBx Survival and 4c Landstill are easily the worst matchpus for this deck, hands down, and we're just not winning against those two decks by slow rolling.
If you give Survival time, they recur Fairies against you. This cripples any outs you have. They also have access to Thoughtseize, Leyline, and Extirpates or Jailer, depending on what they feel like having. Each of those can wreck you, because their clock is faster. I'd call this match probably a 45% for Ichorid post-board, mostly because you would need to see 2-3 anti-hate cards in your first few turns.
If you give Landstill time (which is exactly what you are advocating) they have Deed, EE, Crypt, counter magic, Extirpate, and Leyline, all of which will stop you cold. In the meantime, they are consistently beating you down with Factories and Goyfs, because you have no answers to them. I'm not even sure what I'd consider this matchup post-board, because I know I've had terrible times testing against it post-board. My runs were probably like 30-35%.
Stop trying to act like games 2 and 3 are easy. They aren't. You can't slowroll against a deck that can kill you in a number of turns, and you especially can't rely on dredging into answers at any given time against either, because Leyline is a 40% chance in their opening 7, and their chances don't drop considerably if they mull.
There's a reason Ichorid is lucky to pull a top 8 victory, an opponent having the nuts against you in games 2 and 3 is far more likely than your ability to answer them.
In conclusion, stop acting like you're the only player that's good with the deck. I've been working on this build ever since manaless Ichorid popped up in Vintage, and will continue to tweak the deck until I see it beating decks more often in games 2 and 3. If it means cutting out LED, keeping Breakthrough out, and "opening the deck up to more hate", then so be it.
As I see it, most of you that are advocating the Breakthrough + LED plan and not using Unmasks are basically scooping to FoW anyway, because your narrow sighted game plan lacks additional outs.
Quote:
If you give Survival time, they recur Fairies against you.
Quote:
If you give Landstill time (which is exactly what you are advocating) they have Deed, EE, Crypt, counter magic, Extirpate, and Leyline, all of which will stop you cold.
Aren't you a little bit self-contradicting here, sir?Quote:
and will continue to tweak the deck until I see it beating decks more often in games 2 and 3. If it means cutting out LED, keeping Breakthrough out, and "opening the deck up to more hate", then so be it.
To be honest I don't see the contradiction. Deathwing's point is lets make the deck super consistent and able to reliably fight through all your opponent's hate cards in games 2-3.
@Bane of the Living: Have you tested the Extended builds with Tireless Tribe? I recommend it but keep playing whatever build you want while other people in this thread try to make the deck better. As far as Chalice of the Void goes ....... I am not sure what the problem is with a CotV @ 1. It shuts off some shit ... ok. Thats why the deck runs 15 lands, cast Breakthrough for 1 and start dredging. And why would Swords hurt this deck at all? PImp and Tribe allow you to discard you hand regardless so who cares if they die? That is what makes the Tribe good, it is reliant on nothing and it never hurts having it but if you don't it generally won't affect much. Basically it can help a LOT but not having it doesn't affect the deck much (no way to say this without sounding redundant) but people who have played the Extended builds know what I'm talking about.
I'm getting confused, there seems to be more and more added to the debate:
No one is saying don't use Unmask. I was the only one that said I won't use it maindeck due to my meta (but I'm thinking Sideboard).
The issues about Extirpate, Engineeried Explosives, Faerie Macabre, Pernicious Deed and Jailer remains large problem whether or not we use LED+Breakthrough or anything else that makes the Ichorid more consistent.
Regarding Landstill I feel that DeathwingZERO, what you said was exactly right==> we shouldn't be giving them enough time. This is y I think LED + Breakthrough should remain in Ichorid rather than Tireless and/or Manashort(this was mentioned before) + 3 lands.
Against Survival things I know are tough. Faerie Macabre is going to be a given, so the only answer I can come up against that is to be fast. Worst case senario 1st turn they will have a LotV, play Thoughtseize and Tormod's Crpyt with a a Faerie Macabre back-up. It's crazy and my head is spinning. However if they do that this means that they are also slower...
I'm hardly self-contradicting. Running Breakthrough is all-or-nothing. That's your game 1. Games 2 and 3, I hope to god you're siding Breakthrough out, because all-or-nothing = dead card in hand facing LotV, and you should ALWAYS consider that the #1 piece of hate you will need to answer, as it's turn 0. Even if it's a 40% chance, it's a 40% chance you need to DIG, not explode.
This is another reason I advocate Street Wraith. While you are on a clock, you NEED to see more cards. Deep isn't going to do you any good. Breakthrough isn't going to do you any good. Coliseum isn't going to do you any good. What do you have left in the "traditional" build to find your answers then? Topdecking? Have fun. I'll play my 56 card deck, thanks. Your answers are typically instants, so why not give yourself the option to try finding them on your opponent's turn when they are most viable? Also, it's 2 life @ 0cc. Did I ever mention that?
I'm not saying "Run my build, it's superior". I'm saying "Stop acting like this deck can't POSSIBLY get better", because saying this deck is good enough right now is just lying to yourself. If this deck WAS as good as people say it is post-SB, it'd be seeing a LOT more play, because people are practically saying it's still favorable post board "if you know how to pilot the deck". That's completely untrue. It's STILL an uphill battle, and game 1 still isn't an auto-win every match. This obviously means more can be done.
You're talking about racing Survival's hate and Landstill's hate and boarding out Breakthrough, the card that's used for racing, at the same time. This is a giant contradiction.
Also, RGBSA with Leyline? wat?
EDIT: To contribute something productive - digging for answers is fine and all, but I prefer to have a virtually increased answer count. Try playing 3 Gambles in the board, they help.
When the opponent has a Leyline in play and possibly an Extirpate in hand, will you cast Breakthrough? No.
You can't "race" when you can't win.
I agree. There's still much work to be done. I'm interested with your inclusion of Street Wraiths though... How were you able to fit them in? Can you post your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO
Still, nice and all, but cutting LED means throwing away the combo-MU. Tireless Tribe does nothing there.
Does nobody care about the combo MU? The only argument I've heard is 'if there's combo, don't play Ichorid' which is a silly argument at best.
What would a deck with Unmask look like? Does it make running Street Wraith inevitable? Or is the list viable if it's standard but with Unmask SB?
I agree with a lot of what you said bane, but the one thing I HIGHLY disagree with is the Platinum>Ancestor. Ancestor gains you a LOT of life as a one-time effect and they must have an answer for it right then. As most experienced players know, life doesn't matter as long as you have some if you are a combo player. Having said this, Platinum Angel is not a one-time effect. It's a flyer, and a 4/4. Thats a 5 turn time-clock without ichorid beats (obviously you will have these GY hate notwithstanding). Plus, if you Dread Platinum, you are already not doing well. Like DeathwingZero said about Britney Spears, she doesn't give an opponent a reason NOT to kill her, which makes her a non-answer.
Basically, the life-gain is like playing a Platinum for us. Gives you life along with zombie tokens, which will almost always be enough. This gives them a longer clock and you blockers. This is nice against goblins (Wastes and Ports + a clock hurt us BAD. I know some people run Needles, but it's difficult to hit both, or even the right one). It's also good against TES and FT.
Against Landstill I've always had better luck going Ichorid Beats with a Chalice @ 1 to stop their Swords. Game 2 and 3 of course, game 1 you go for the nutz as obviously you shouldn't know what they are playing yet.
Also, whoever asked how they play LftL in here is really not thinking. LED=green mana. They get their wasteland on, you can handle it. This is also good with Dakmor Salvage. With Life from the Loam and D. Salvage you can have 4 lands available. This is also where free dredge comes in handy (Street Wraith).
One last thing. I haven't tested it because honestly its a reach, but I've been thinking about Academy Ruins. It's an LED each turn with an extra U each turn which often is equivalent to 2 lands, and it's a way to not deck. Obviously it's only useable if you use loam. It shouldn't be considered as anything more than a one-of.
These are just my thoughts.
Pce,
--DC
@ Mayk: If you are only going to echo yourself (because no one else is) please stop posting in the thread. Your agrument is "fine just throw away the combo match" you make it seem like as long as Dredge is running LED it is super fast and will beat Belcher, TES, FT, or SI every time. Apparently you have never played this deck because that is not the case at all. "Just race" is not the way to win the combo match and Dredge does not win turn 1 much at all, maybe 1 in 30 games or so (out of the 3ish tournaments I have taken LED Dredge to or any of the playtesting and goldfishing I have done I have NEVER had a turn 1 kill, damn Narcomoebas) rarely does it ever win on turn 1. And decks like TES and FT consistently kill on the exact same turns that Dredge does 2-4. Unmask will help but Chalice will help more. Run Chalice in the SB and game 1 try and mull into a hand with Therapy. Anwar wrote an entire article on www.starcitygames.com about Dredge and he runs (I think) 3x Unmask in the main.
@ Dark Cynic: Really?? Loam?? Why would you ever want to cast Loam? Your opponent gets you in a Wastelock how will Dakmor Salvage help? I'm setting up a situation here: you have 1x land in play and LED, break LED to flashback DA, dredge Loam, dredge something else, cast Loam getting back 3 lands, play a land ..... EOT opponent Wastelands your land, then Loams his Wasteland back and kills your other land or Sinkhole etc. Why would you ever want to cast Life from the Loam? Also, Dakmor Salvage is terrible, you can run it if you really want to but the fact that is adds useless colorless mana (to cast Loam I suppose) and comes into play tapped ... and it dredges for 2? This is supposed to be good against Wasteland? Academy Ruins ..... in a deck that wants to mill itself every turn for the most it possibly can why would you want to draw LEDs; and again ... the colorless mana thing.
@ Deathwing: Please post your list so we can discuss Street Wraith and begin testing. I am very interested in the idea of free, instant dredge (although I doubt instant will be relevant .. you never know) but I am wondering how it affects the speed of the deck.
On another note, should we start a separate thread for the people who want to discuss the more Extended builds of Dredge and how to improve on it in the Legacy metagame or should we just keep the discussion here?
Not going to argue about these things with you Bane, but the Vintage Ichorid is not slower. Those kind of statements make the rest of your (possibly valid) points look dubious.
The balls-to-the-walls-combo-version of Vintage Ichorid goldfishes on turn 2-3.
(.. but is vulnerable as fuck postboard / to lucky draws.)
Just saying.
Also: Playing Unmasks (I'd love to find room for 4..) makes the combo-mu much better. Long is faster than Ichorid in vintage, so you try to bring them down to your level (unmask,therapy,chalice,lotv..).
Same logic - if you can't race them, make them slower.
No, I said nothing about wastelock. I'm not responsible for your assumptions. I said wasteland, not WasteLOCK. For wastelocks you should just win turn 2 before it becomes an issue.
For ruins, I said it was iffy. However, it can be a metagame use for small tournies that you know are gonna have brainstorm or scepter-chant/brain freeze/random-chant. Decking sux.
As for the colorless mana, you only NEED one mana for everything but DA, and that is...omg colorless, as is loam. Also, I said as a one-of with both loam and with ruins. Loam could possibly be a 2-of in your board. Personally, I run a Salvage MD. It's good. It requires a setup turn, but it often wins me the game when it untaps.
SW in the board for boarding out Breakthroughs. I keep Therapies as I know my meta thoroughly (as I built everyone's lists here), and I know what to name. However, if I were to run this @ a bigger tourney, say GenCon, I'd probably go the Unmask route.
The other day my buddy built a crap-list just to beat me. Storm combo-ish, but "kill-spell" was Mindslaver. The creep got it out turn 2 and activated on the play turn 2. He ran through my library, got all my moebas out, 2x Ichorids, and tossed them to grab a thug with Dread, sacced thug and 2 Ichorids to grab another thug, put an ichorid on top of my library. I had 5 or 6 cards left. He beat me...Propaganda turn 3...and I had no Dread Returns...It was hilariously shitty.
Pce,
--DC
Hello there everyone. This is my first post here but i think i have some wonderful insights to share with you all. This deck is amazing, and I have been playing it in one incarnation or another scince it top 8'ed at worlds. For reference here is my build :
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephallid Colisium
4x Putrid Imp
2x Golgari thug
4x Narcomeaba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Ichorid
1x Flame Kin Zealot
1x Cephallid sage
4x Golgari grave troll
2x Careful study
4x Cabal therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge From Below
2x Deep analysis
2x Dread return
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lions eye diamond
SB:
4x Tormods Crypt (I Think I want chalice or needle here)
4x Chain of vapor
3x Darkblast
2x Ray of revelation
2x Ancient Grudge
Sorry to just jump in like this (especally in the midst of such heated discussion) But I just thought I would share some of my opinions about the deck. The thread is called ichorid combo, and it does have a combo in it, but i am not sure thats correct cause its more like synergy if you ask me. But I digress, Allow me to share some card choices.
12 land + 2 mox + 4 led = 18 mana sources make the deck amazingly consistent as far as having the land you need to cast spells or even creatures if need be. although honestly i feel the moxses could be something else (they were careful study, but im thinking about trying 2 street wraith in the spot)
4 led + 4 putrid imp + 2 careful study + 4 breakthrough = 14 discard enablers which almost gaurantees me something to get the ball rolling (or the cards turning whatever)
breakthrough and led are amazing. Removing them from the deck for street wraith or tolarian winds or whatever does not seem like a good idea imho because i like the idea of either pitchin my hand for three mana (good w/ coliseum and deep anal) or drawling four for one U. alot of time i find myself keeping hands w/ break through a land and no dredger because four cards down is fairly deep and you should find one.
2 deep anal 2 dread return. i have never once had to cast either spell more than twice in a game and these numbers feel right to me. I usually always have at least one of the two if i need it and have not had a problem getting it.
one thing i am not sure about is the number of dredgers. 10 seems like enough but i almost wish i had 11 or 12 sometimes, but when i make the change i always hate it so 10 is it for now unless one of you guys has an opinion about why more would be better.
umm thats all I can think of to say right now so if you guys would give me feed back, maybe even try my build and help a fat sweaty kid out it would be greatly appriciated thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I keep repeating myself because nobody addresses the obvious problems cutting LED brings in the combo MU. Saying that I have never played this deck before is complete bs, I've played this deck a lot, and I play in a combo heavy environment. I simply don't see how cutting the deck down to the Extended version will help Ichorids viability in Legacy in any way.
Also, saying that I'm suggesting that with LED, Ichorid can consistenly beat combo is a gross and blatant exaggeration. Worse even, if you actually read the words I have been 'echoing' all this time you would find that I am constantly saying that TES and the like are a very difficult MU, and that the inclusion of LED gives you speed you desperately need. Playing LED makes the combo MU stronger, which is why I'm advocating it.
But you're right, I guess I've got my point across and there's no need to repeat it, so I'll lay low with the combo-thing and try to look at it from different angles. What I'm trying to do is improve my skills and knowledge of this deck, but up to this point I've yet to be impressed by the extended build.
About the 'just race'-thing, it does not equal 'turn 1 kill', and I never said this. 'Racing' entails disrupting combo before they can go off, which basically comes down to getting as many Cabal Therapies into your graveyard as fast as you can. This can only be done through dredging (and mulliganing), which is done faster with LED.
Thanks for the tip on Anwar's Dredge article, I will surely read it.
On the DR targets; I dislike Platinum Angel. The Chosen seems better because it's a solid card against almost all of the archetypes out there. It's a blast against Tendrils/EtW, it's a blast against Aggro and it's a blast against Control. Basically it's solid against any deck that's not out to mill you. All the mentioned decks have a good way of dealing with Platinum Angel, even post-board as a lot of those decks run Burning Wish.
Here's my list:
Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Creatures
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below
Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
3 Unmask
Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ray Of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
If it looks familiar, it's because it is. This is the exact same list that Anwar has been piloting for a while now, with -4 Breakthrough/+4 Street Wraith in the main, and -1 Unmask/+1 Grudge in the sideboard. I believe the Coliseum count on my list is at 4, though not entirely certain. The deck isn't with me, so I can't look at it.
Both my buddy (Linkxwing, avid 4c Landstill player) and I haven't missed Breakthrough in the least. On paper it seems the deck slows down a whole lot by not having those 4 cards at once, but in reality it doesn't lose speed at all. The main reason for this is twofold:
1- Ichorids come back more often, and faster. This speeds up your use of Therapy/Dread Returns even if you haven't hit multiple Narcomoebas.
2- Instant speed dredge enabler, or digger. At one point I drew into an opening hand of this: Wraith, Wraith, Troll, Imp, Mine, Coliseum, Therapy. Before my second turn's draw step I had 14 cards in the graveyard already, off casting Imp. Only difference here is that I also still held Coliseum and Therapy in hand.
While the "godhand" of being able to activate Coliseum turn 2 -> win isn't always the case, this is a regular scenario with Imp and Wraith. I discard when I want, and I dredge when I want. I'm not playing on my turn anymore. I'm playing when my opponent thinks their safe. They see me drop Imp, pass the turn, and they drop their land and say "go". All of a sudden my graveyard is packed, and Ichorids are coming out to beat on their faces, because Wraith's have already done their job and are happy to be tossed from game for recursion.
The lack of Breakthrough is a hypothetical lack of speed. Trust me, I've tested this build for quite some time, and I've taken notes. Breakthrough is awesome when you already have the dredge set up for a win (2-3 dredgers available), and mediocre at best doing it blind, because it rips your hand apart and could very well miss dredging more than once.
Street Wraith is consistent. Not only does he allow for dredge, he allows for Ichorid when you need them to come back for faster Bridge activations, or can be pitched to Unmask without the risk of losing Therapy or a Dredge piece. If you already have a really solid start, tossing this guy out to Unmask turn 1 is awesome. Now you know what to call Therapy on, you know how fast (or slow) you can play, AND you haven't given up what's in your hand. And what's wrong with the combo player now having all the information? I LOVE THAT.
Again, I'm saying what's working for me right now. I know my meta has Survival builds that are tuned against me, and I know I'm going to see at the very least 1 version of 4c Landstill. I believe this branch of Ichorid is better vs those kinds of matchups. I will be keeping Wraiths in, right now it just so happens that it's at the cost of Breakthrough. I may switch that and instead nuke DA's, 1 Breakthrough and 1 LED. I dunno. That's what the testing is for.
Heres another list to stimulate discussion
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephallid Colisium
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari thug
3x Narcomeaba
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Ichorid
1x Flame Kin Zealot
1x Cephallid sage
4x Golgari grave troll
4x Street Wraith
4x Careful study
4x Cabal therapy
4x Breakthrough
3x Bridge From Below
3x Unmask
2x Dread return
SB:
3x Gamble
4x Chain of vapor
1x LED
2x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline
For the card choices
3x Moebas, Ichorids, Bridges
- Well I believe that you should never include 4-ofs of cards that you do not want to see 2 of in your opening hand. This is especially true for narcomoebas and for the others as well especially if the only dscard outlet available is careful study. Their lesser number is offset by the fact that it is easier to get a healthy graveyard earlier by increasing the number of useable cards in the opening hand
-The overall speed is reduced by 1 to 2 turns but it is still possible to make turn 1 kills with unmask and breakthrough. But again this is compensated by having increased usable cards in the opening hand
As for the SB choices
Gambles - They can easily take place of breakthrough in games 2-3 since they can either fetch for anti hate cards such as vepor if needed, or they can fetch other combo enablers such as discard outlets , colliseum or a dredger if ever the opponent did not get hate in the opening hand. There is a risk of discarding the desired card though but then again playing the deck is a big risk in itself
Leyline for other graveyard using decks. And finally chain of vapor is enough to get rid of annoying permamnents that an opponent has
ok so I just had a crazy idea. I saw a Cephaild Breakfast deck a while back that could turn into a life deck to beet graveyard hate. I also saw one that could turn into a thres build. so I was thinking; would there be a way to do the same thing with this deck?
Here is my thought (please don't flame me for this) what if we turned the deck into an aggro control deck post side. put goyf in side and keep unmask in main maybe add thoiughtsieze and a couple lands.
I dont know just a spurt of inspiration, I am 90% sure it will not work.
maybe something like this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
// Spells
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [OD] Careful Study
3 [MM] Unmask
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [LOR] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [A] Bayou
or we could fit the painter servant combo in side:
4x painter
4x stone
3x gamble
4x enlightened tutor
I've gone down to 12 lands, but that is only because of Street Wraith. You're basically playing a 56 card deck, and the odds of drawing one of those 12 lands is high enough to justify cutting a few lands.
I don't want to spam the thread with decklists, but my current testing version is:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Ichorid
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Unmask
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
Black cards: 32
Unmask has been very good in testing, and I highly recommend running all four copies maindeck. They solve many problems preemptively, and can serve as an additional discard-outlet when desperate. With 32 black cards, you should have enough cards to pitch.
I run the full dredge suite with 12 dredgers. This has several advantages: you can chain dredges more easily and you have enough cards to remove for Ichorid & Unmask. In rare situations you're able to cast Thug and do some Narcomoeba/Therapy/Dread Return tricks.
Street Wraith has also been quite good.
I can see the points against Breakthrough, but they've been too useful to cut (yet). If you have enough mana post-board, they can also be used to dig for your anti-hate bullets.
Pithing Needle doesnt do little against you. If your playing some gay version with Tireless Tribes with PImps you have a ton of targets. I like having Coliseum be the only target for the most part. Chalice of the Void is decent against us actually. No discarding your opponents hand, no Breakthrough if you DONT see two lands. Often times if the Chalice is dropped by Dragon Stompy it's followed by 3sphere so DDD wont work well. Blood Moon is also a problem for Breakthrough. DA can be cast off LED still.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
This thread needs infinitely less extended cards.
BtW goblins and goyf sly are the decks worst matchups. Survival is a cakewalk. Landstill can be difficult if they come prepared and you side the wrong anti-hate.
Ive played the extended lists for extended. Not against legacy decks. I shouldnt have to tell you to stop comparing the two since other people have said it plenty of times. We already decided while Gamble was up for contention that 8 ways to cast a non blue or black spell is idiocy. Tireless Tribe falls within that idiocy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Im not completely against playing PImp, his numbers should be determined by how much hate for him you expect. Opening the deck up to pyroblast, chalice, swords, and needle are bad ideas. Deep Analysis is still good enough to keep but Breakthrough gets countered by painters, goyf sly, and goblins. Why make the matchups worse?
Swords shouldnt be an answer to your discard outlet. It is but it shouldn't be, so I stray away from reliance on the one drop pitch your hand guys.
All in all Im glad people are finally listening to me about Street Wraith. The only issue with the card is finding space and cutting breakthrough does sound best.