[Deck] Armageddon Stax

The only difference I see in the list are angels. Having the same list being talked about is not much of a problem. The thread is not only meant for the long time stax players but for the new ones as well. Im just hoping that new players read at least part of the thread before throwing out conclusions or questions.

@ scrow,

goblins is usually a positive match up for stax unless they go super fast.

43 lands however is quite a bad match up. Its good to see that you won that match.

@ ghost quarter, it has been talked about before, sometimes you wish it was a wasteland, and rarely will it change the outcome of a match.Its not a good risk to take unless you are quite sure most of the decks in your metagame dont have basics as its going to be sad to see your ghost quarter do nothing.

IM actually interested in the U/w build, as it plays just like armageddon stax.

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

The only difference I see in the list are angels. Having the same list being talked about is not much of a problem. The thread is not only meant for the long time stax players but for the new ones as well. Im just hoping that new players read at least part of the thread before throwing out conclusions or questions.

@ scrow,

goblins is usually a positive match up for stax unless they go super fast.

43 lands however is quite a bad match up. Its good to see that you won that match.

@ ghost quarter, it has been talked about before, sometimes you wish it was a wasteland, and rarely will it change the outcome of a match.Its not a good risk to take unless you are quite sure most of the decks in your metagame dont have basics as its going to be sad to see your ghost quarter do nothing.

IM actually interested in the U/w build, as it plays just like armageddon stax.

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Glad to know that I won a tough matchup! I remember there being talk of splashing blue for a long time, but I thought I recall that also being dismissed, and I can't remember why.

I tested against Ichorid tonight. I think that is a decent matchup for Stax. I had a fairly easy time of it, although I may have been lucky. First turn Trinisphere or Chalice @1 seems to do a good job buying time, and Ghostly Prison seems to seal the deal game 1. Game 2 brings in some enchantment removal, but an early Chalice @2 stops that as well.

I really love this deck, and I would be interested in a blue splash, simply for drawing, Academy Ruins, and Intuition.

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Originally Posted by scrow213

Glad to know that I won a tough matchup! I remember there being talk of splashing blue for a long time, but I thought I recall that also being dismissed, and I can't remember why.

I tested against Ichorid tonight. I think that is a decent matchup for Stax. I had a fairly easy time of it, although I may have been lucky. First turn Trinisphere or Chalice @1 seems to do a good job buying time, and Ghostly Prison seems to seal the deal game 1. Game 2 brings in some enchantment removal, but an early Chalice @2 stops that as well.

I really love this deck, and I would be interested in a blue splash, simply for drawing, Academy Ruins, and Intuition.

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Ichorid, The plays to Make

Here are the bombs you can play against Ichorid strategies turn 1:

Trinisphere
Sphere of Resistance
Ghostly Prison
Chalice of the Void @ 0

While Chalice at 1 does stop things like a Breakthrough, Cabal Therapy and Putrid Imp, it doesn't stop Breakthrough or Cabal Therapy. Breakthrough has an X in it's mana cost, which means it costs whatever they want it to above 0. Cabal Therapy is countered, but the triggers they want from sacrificing a guy are why that card is in the deck. Hitting a random card or 2 is just a 100% bonus.

Chalice @ 0 stops the most important thing Ichorid can do: start up. Countering Lions-Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal. Whoops. After reviewing Deckcheck for recent Ichorid lists, Chalice goes to 1! I forgot about Careful Study, and the only free card is LED. While stopping LED is good, stopping more spells is better. Clearly we want Trinisphere or Prison here.

Little Red Men

Goblins. At a first glance this matchup seems un-lose-able for Stax. Playing against this matchup no less than 25 times, I say: Stax can lose. This matchup is something like 60-40 preboard in favor of Stax. While we have tools to slow them down, then grind them to a complete halt, Goblins has little red dudes. A lot of them. Even with something like a Ghostly Prison, them paying 4 to attack with Ringleader and Piledriver is often enough damage. This isn't taking into account sometimes you don't draw Prison, then you usually lose.

Trinisphere: Goblins has a great curve, probably in the top 3 decks of the format. Trinisphere can really stall them out until turn 3, especially on the play, but they can work around it. If they resolve an AEther Vial on turn 1 before you can land Sphere your play becomes hardly noticeable. Not to mention they have things like Goblin Tutor and Tin-Street Hooligan. That card can really mess you up. Even after you've stopped them from attacking, they have Siege-Gang Commander. This guy is something that needs to be stopped. Suppression Field and Armageddon really shine here. Hopefully you draw them before you're shot to death.

Here are some things I take into account when I know Goblins is across the table:

1) Don't keep a hand that has exactly 1 good card. 6 lands and a Ghostly Prison is going to put you at the mercy of your topdecks, and Goblins can do it better than you.

2) Don't keep a hand that relies on a Turn 1 or 2 Crucible to keep you on mana. If they Tin-Street your bowl away and you're stuck on Mox Diamond and Mishra's Factory, you're going to lose.

3) Don't play Smokestack. Unless they have a low permanent count and no lands, don't play it. It'll mess with your card and it won't affect them at all. Board this card out.

4) If you run it, don't lean on Humility too much. A ton of 1/1's can and will still get there.

5) Put Chalice at 1 if you can. A lot of Goblins players will keep a hand with a lot of 1 drops assuming the speed will put you out of the game. It's fun and mean spirited to play Chalice@1 and see your opponent set 5 cards down.

That stuff being said, Goblins/Stax is really in Stax's favor. Almost every card in the deck does something bad to Goblins. You just have to hope they don't have a turn 3 kill.

An Ethereal 25 Cents

For the first 6 months I played Stax, Ghost Quarter was my 61st card. It did about what I expected: Not a whole lot, and once in a while it was a blowout. The problem was that I couldn't cut anything for it, and as a 1 of it wasn't reliable in the slightest. I began to doubt if Ghost Quarter was good enough, because it was so situational and I couldn't add any more. I had done some reading about Horizon Canopy, and I made the switch. Canopy makes white mana, which does come into use, and the card draw is useful more often than hitting basic land when they don't have any left. Under Crucible I prefer having 2 cards a turn than Ghost Quarter's effect. With Path to Exile coming into the game soon, maybe some Swords to Plowshares will be replaced and thus decks will run 1 or 2 basics. This greatly reduces the benefit of Ghost Quarter. For now, I can see the merit of the card, it's a personal choice.

Also, for any of you who have been playing the deck for a while, I ask this. What's the plan against CounterSlivers?

The same as just about any other aggro/ctrl deck with daze and fow basically.

Try run them out of permission by baiting them with a first turn CotV that shuts down draw/vial, try to O-ring vials and make everything lead up to a magus followed by a geddon with a crucible on the table?

It's a fairly good match for me and I play a build that is theoretically worse against slivers than the traditional build.

Try and get a CotV@2. It basically shuts them down. I often try and lure out a counter with an Armageddon, followed next turn by Chalice@2.

As stated above CoTV at 2 is gg IF they don't land a vial. My suggestion is CoTV @ 1, and then violently assault their manabase until you can get the CoTV @ 2.

I played 5 games against Meathooks, each game he countered my relevant card and beat me up with Winged Sliver, Muscle Sliver and other stuff. Sometimes Crystalline Sliver, but all that did was attack.

Also, in the many months I've been playing with this deck, I've never once played against Leyline of the Void. What's the deal with this?

Flash got banned and dredge is a fairly obscure deck now imo.

You need to step up your game against aggro ctrl matchups. Losing against slivers due to their counter magic package is indicative of a lack of experience against similar decks. In my experience, once you have played one X blue aggro/ctrl deck with vials, you've played them all.

As far i as remember, CounterSlivers as always been a diffucult MU for me with Stacks. (if CounterSlivers player counter relevant spells obviously)

Vial make our manadenial strategy less effective, crystallin shut O.Ring down, and they have Winged which make Magus / Mishra block or Moat less effective.

An post-board, if they draw Harmonic Sliver, we loose

Chalice @2 is not going to happend that often, and is relevant only if they don't have a vial or don't already have 2-3 creatures in play.

Powder keg, 3sphere(all of their counters are alternate cost ones generally), CotV, Magus, O-Ring on a vial, wasteland, geddon, prison(lesser extent, but they will counter once one is on the table because that is the smart thing to do a lot of the time), taber land(often a singleton that they can do nothing about) and uhm random sideboard stuff like maybe a wrath or something. Oh! Smokestack can also be troublesome for them as is CoW.

That's like...almost the entire deck and a few common sidebaord cards right there that hurts them potentially. The unfortunate thing is that a lot of those cards need to be complemented by another of whatever to be more effective in the pursuit of victory.

Admittedly, I haven't played against slivers with a normal build of geddon stax in a while, but I have with rich people stax and I have a good game even with moats which are often dead cards quickly depending on whether or not I have shut down their digging with a CotV at one and how lucky they get with drawing a winged sliver which is usually a card that has three copies if I recall.

My trick against decks like doing casting really risky bait, like a smokestack early when I don't have a CoW out, but if lands cooperate, I'll be able to cast one if I topdeck or a humility that looks like it has been cast out of sheer ignorance etc. I try to waste their counters as quickly as possible and hopefully have something left in my hand that is good when they run out of counters or get some good shit off of the top of my deck. This is a very risky strategy, but that is actually how I beat dreadstill most of the time as well as thresh and such. I have won lots of games with risky smoker plays though.

Harmonic sliver is just rough though. I still have a good record versus slivers either way.

I guess I'll have to play a lot more games against Thresh/Dreadstill. I seem to have a horrible track record against decks that run FoW and Daze. I always seem to have my good cards countered. What pointers do you guys have against these decks?

I have had a terrible time with Stifle Naught. As far as the matches go, the only thing I try is wait until you have 3 mana available (first or second turn) and go for Chalice @1. If you have 1 mana left open, you at least remove Daze from the equation, leaving just FoW to worry about.

I also like to drop Smokestack as bait, because if they counter it, they lost a counter, and if they don't, we can work around it much better than they can, so you can use it to take control. Really, FoW is the big problem. Once you side in Defense Grids and Sphere of Resistance, it becomes a much better match, with lots of redundancy.

The problem I have with Naught is that it is just too big a beatstick. If it lands, it is nearly impossible to deal with. And every time I have played against it, they had MD EE to remove Chalices. I don't know what to do to stop that. I debated Null Rods in the side, as it only hits our Moxen. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Patrick

I guess I'll have to play a lot more games against Thresh/Dreadstill. I seem to have a horrible track record against decks that run FoW and Daze. I always seem to have my good cards countered. What pointers do you guys have against these decks?

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Chalice@1 is pretty good. In case of Threshold, Trinisphere followed by Armageddon usually seals the deal as Thresh only runs about 17 lands, they recover very slow. I also used to run 1 Plateau maindeck and a couple of Boils in the side: the problem with these decks is that they don't only cast FoW or Daze, but also cast pretty big threats. So you need to take out all their mana alltogether, Defense Grid alone often doesn't cut it.

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Originally Posted by scrow213

I have had a terrible time with Stifle Naught. As far as the matches go, the only thing I try is wait until you have 3 mana available (first or second turn) and go for Chalice @1. If you have 1 mana left open, you at least remove Daze from the equation, leaving just FoW to worry about.

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And Spell Snare.

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Originally Posted by scrow213

Once you side in Defense Grids and Sphere of Resistance

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You actually run both? I hesitate to run them because of their non-synergy with Trinisphere.

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Originally Posted by scrow213

The problem I have with Naught is that it is just too big a beatstick. If it lands, it is nearly impossible to deal with. And every time I have played against it, they had MD EE to remove Chalices. I don't know what to do to stop that. I debated Null Rods in the side, as it only hits our Moxen. Thoughts?

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You could run 4 Oblivion Rings and a Kor Haven in the main. Perhaps even Maze of Ith.

Patrick and co.

I gave my pointers on the matchup anyway. There are guys that probably have better insights than me, but I threw mine out there anyway. My best suggestions beyond what I already said for beating dreadstill and such is to devote your sideboard to the matches more heavily or just play a different deck.

For smokers, I have found there to be a few little nuances as to when you need to drop them as bait: I try to find a time where they would be absolutely amazing to land on the board, but at the same time look like obvious bait so my opponent doesn't counter it. Kind of a weird sort of revers psychology or something like that I guess. I played with permission decks exclusively for a very long time, so I have a pretty good feel for how the match ups work on either side of the table. A big [stupid] part is just luck too I think.

I don't really think geddon stax is a good fit for metagames with lots of goyfs, equipment and naughts though personally. If something doesn't fit, don't try to force it.

I'm not particularly experienced in the counter sliver match up, but unlike thresh, it has faster beaters and more permanents. Its also true that almost every card we have is a problem for counter sliver as Mordel said so, so Im guessing you just have to bait counter spells. You'll have to test this more to figure it out.

Dreadstill, its not a positive match,as far as im concerened. I think one of the biggest problems here is not only dreadnaught but standstill. Its a big card advantage for them.UNless you want to fight man land wars.The rest like force, daze, counter top, is just like thresh. Land base is a little different, but unlike goyf, dreadnaught can not be blocked by magus.O. ring might help here, baiting with the right stuff can be very crucial in this match up. Maybe seal of cleansing or aura of silence might help. As for dreadstill, I think Dutch stax has a better match up on this one. Humilities and moats can stop dreadnaught on its tracks.

The thresh match up is positive one for stax. Just play early lock pieces, smokestack geddon. Its quite easy, just play stax as it is.

@scrow
Null rod for? sensei? It doesn't prevent dreadnaught from attacking. As attacking is not an activated ability. If thats what your thinking.

No, Null Rod mainly for EE. If you can stick a Chalice @1 and a Null Rod, there is almost nothing left for them to get out. Plus it does also hit Top, as well as hose Affinity pretty well.

Against Dreadstill I bring in 3x Aura of Silence and 3x Runed Halo. Keep in mind that Trinisphere makes Dreadnought cost 5U. Trinisphere also makes it difficult for them to cast EE at 0 (Right? Not positive but the mana they use to pay for Trinisphere adds to Sunburst, correct me if I'm wrong). Your best bet against them is playing proactive hate like Trinisphere and Chalice, also Crucible will usually keep them off of Standstill. Runed Halos and Auras give you 6 more reactive answers plus 4 main Oblivion Ring and 1 Kor Haven like Mordel suggested above (that's what I run). Baiting counters is very very important, and like almost all matchups resolving Armageddon will win you the game. Any other card is worth using as bait. The matchup is difficult but not impossible, but knowing which cards you're willing to get countered and which cards you want to have on the table is essential and also varies with game state and your hand. Lastly, I always play around Daze, and that's worked for me.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

Against Dreadstill I bring in 3x Aura of Silence and 3x Runed Halo.

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I use neither of these cards: no room in my sideboard. What does your sideboard look like?

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

Trinisphere also makes it difficult for them to cast EE at 0 (Right?

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Right.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

4 main Oblivion Ring and 1 Kor Haven like Mordel suggested above

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Hey, that was me! :wink: