[OLD] UGr Threshold

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Yes. However, be warned that you need to build your manabase specifically to handle Blood Moon yourself, with Wooded Foothills and the like.

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Cant you just cast a tarmogofy pre moon...? or at worst up the SB slots to 3 with 1 forest as the last spot? Doesnt even seem needed though as burn can finish off a deck that is something like

4 DDreams
4 Terravore
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 CCrusher
41 moutains

I mean a forest isnt needed, you could just burn them out after 2-3 swings from a goyf/goose.

I will probably play the same SB as you -1 predator -1 K grip for +2 Blood moon for the awful lands MU. What else are bad MUs??

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Originally Posted by undone

Cant you just cast a tarmogofy pre moon...? or at worst up the SB slots to 3 with 1 forest as the last spot? Doesnt even seem needed though as burn can finish off a deck that is something like

4 DDreams
4 Terravore
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 CCrusher
41 moutains

I mean a forest isnt needed, you could just burn them out after 2-3 swings from a goyf/goose.

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That's true of 43 Lands, but if you're going to spend 2-3 SB slots on Blood Moon then it's worth it to go the extra step and make sure you can use it against common decks like AnythingWithPerniciousDeed.dec.

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Originally Posted by MULocke

blood moon (actually, magus?) seems good if i run into many lands decks. Another idea that came to me is price of progress. moon effects seem better tho.

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Pithing Needle rules in this matchup, because you can just needle Maze of Ith or whatever manlands they have and roll goyfs through their other blockers.

Needle is also amazing in many other matchups as well.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

Pithing Needle rules in this matchup, because you can just needle Maze of Ith or whatever manlands they have and roll goyfs through their other blockers.

Needle is also amazing in many other matchups as well.

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That's why I win against Lands.dec with the White variant more often than with other variants, because the White one has got maindeck Needles to shut off the Wasteland-gayness and under soem circumstances Maze of Ith, yes.

I then usually run him over with Mystic Enforcer or Hoofprints. Blood Moon and Price of Progress are quite devastating against Lands.dec.

I think if I were really worried about the m/u but still insistant on red splash, I would just play moon thresh anyway. It gets moon effects and counter/top.

Hi. I'm new to this site's forums, I normally just lurk around here, and I've been slowly building this deck, because most of my play is t2. I was wondering, what is the best temporary substitute for FoW? I don't think I will have any soon but I have the rest of the deck. So until then, what should I run in the slot? (I already have counterspell and daze as 4 ofs)

counterspells are the usual substitute for FOW I think. You could also play 1-of Disrupting Shoal and Misdirection. They are at least pitchable and will help to keep pressure from your manabase. But I wouldn't invest in a Misdirection when you are saving money for FOWs. Shoal is not that expensive though.

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Originally Posted by TheWindyTolarian

I was wondering, what is the best temporary substitute for FoW?

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Substitute for FoW??? Not existent.

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Originally Posted by Adan

Substitute for FoW??? Not existent.

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I'm aware of that, but I need to fill 4 slots with something.

I'm tempted to say foil, but in all honosty that probably wouldn't work with the land count, so maybe more bounce/removal/other disruption?

I'd try Disrupting Shoal under threse circumstances, but playing without FoW sucks like hell, you should always possess a playset when attending to Legacy.

Or not play blue.

Foil isn't that horrible in conjunction with Daze, but I still wouldn't advise it. In all honesty, you aren't going to find a turn zero counterspell that's playable, outside of FoW. I'd sugest Mana Leak.

He could play answers to the things that FoW is usually used to answer (counterbalance, Aether Vial, etc). I'm thinking 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Counterspell MD.

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Originally Posted by Mental

He could play answers to the things that FoW is usually used to answer (counterbalance, Aether Vial, etc). I'm thinking 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Counterspell MD.

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Originally Posted by TheWindyTolarian

(I already have counterspell and daze as 4 ofs)

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Why would you play CSpell as a 4 of, unless it's replacing FoW?

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Originally Posted by Mental

Why would you play CSpell as a 4 of, unless it's replacing FoW?

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Because its the only hard counter in the deck at the moment, and mana leak sucks for me, it counters about 50% of the time.

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Originally Posted by TheWindyTolarian

Because its the only hard counter in the deck at the moment, and mana leak sucks for me, it counters about 50% of the time.

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As for horrible as it sounds, I dont think you should ever play an underpowered Threshold deck. You need FoW because there are many games where you have to counter things like opposing Goyfs, Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Survival of the Fittest, Orim's Chant, and other stupid things. But maybe, you could run Spell Snares instead, but even then, you lack a lot of midgame leverage.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

As for horrible as it sounds, I dont think you should ever play an underpowered Threshold deck. You need FoW because there are many games where you have to counter things like opposing Goyfs, Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Survival of the Fittest, Orim's Chant, and other stupid things. But maybe, you could run Spell Snares instead, but even then, you lack a lot of midgame leverage.

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You shouldn't play threshold without FoW*

Fixed. Threshold is an amazingly strong deck and runs well even when running on basics, 'Morphics, and Werebears, but the core* must be intact. Without that core, the deck is unplayable.

*Core:
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 other cantrip
4 mongoose
4 other cheap beater (i.e. Werebear or 'Goyf)

So, let's bring some fuel to the discussion again:

Yesterday, I played a small tourney in Heidelberg. We were 11 people, playing 4 rounds of swiss. Heidelberg's tournaments won't be bigger than 20 people since the store is pretty small, so I thought I could test out my SwanTresh, as it has never seen play so far:

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
3 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle

Match 1 vs. Harald "Locutus" Herrlich with UGB TogStill (I knew that because he was asking for Shackles, Smothers and the likes before the tourney).

Game 1 I somehow fail to apply pressure. Additionally, he has got LftL and Waste. Lame. I should really begin to play non-Island basics. Anyways, at one point, he stops wasting my lands. He's at 12 life, with a Tog and one of my Goyfs (I tried to bait because I had Swans+Chain, but he countered my Swans).
So my hand consisted of 2 Bolts and 2 Chains (=12 damage). But the Tog is 1 turn faster and he swings for power 39087349.

Since I can't hit anything with CC3 (Lightning Storm doesn't count!), I board out the Balance-Engine and the 3 Predicts for the Pyroblasts, the Needles and 2 Grips as he also plays CBalance and anything that's annoying.

Game 2 his draw blows and I have double Goyf blowout. I can relax and ignore the Shackles because he has got 2 Island and 2 Mishra's (anti-synergy for the loose!). When he resolves Explosives, I play Swans. Next turn attack and double-Bolt ftw.

Game 3 was quite balanced, I again manage to cantrip together some Goyfs and Geese. He uses up his hand-resources quite fast, but can assemble the Academy Ruins-EE softlock. So when he's at 2 handcards, I play Swans and combo the turn after. But this was the only time I used the combo.

Match 2 vs. Fabian Moyschewitz with Baseruption.

This one should be easy, his creature base is: 4 Confidant, 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Tarmogoyf. 8 of them die due to burn and Goyfs are handles by cleverness... At least i thought so.

Game 1 we both topdeck like hell, with me evetually losing because he has got 2 big Goyf. I don' remember the details, but it was pretty busted.

- 3 Predict, +3 Pyroblast

Game 2 I have 2 Counterbalances. He counters both and so my 2 Goyfs resolve. He's manaflooded and I win.

Game 3 It's similar, this time he counters Nimble Mongoose (it's good because when I have Thresh, it's bigger than his 8 Mages). So this time i can resolve Balance and the turn after a Top. 2 turns later I have Goyf, he Ponders twice,
revealing 3 lands both times (he shuffles obv.), get's upset and concedes.

Match 3 vs. Florian Scholz with RB Goblins.

Game 1 he's colorscrewed and the only thign he really does it playing Matrons -> Warren Wiering to annoy my Goyfs away. But I play FoWs and Dazes and he fails. He has got 2 blockers for my Goyf when he's on 6 life. I have a Chain in my hand and topdeck Bolt. BURN!

- 3 CBalance, -2 Tops, -3 Predict, -1 Swans

+ 3 Pyroclasm, +3 Hydroblast, + 3 Needles.

Game 2 he rapes my opening hand with Cabal Therapy (he hits 2 Bolts and 2 Brainstorms because i draw a 2nd BS after he discarded my Bolts). Without Brainstorm, I can't generate CQ, therefore I can't optimize my draw and he begins to bash my head in with Lackey, Warchief, Piledriver and so on.

Game 3. This one was thrilling. My Goyf was pretty small, but I forced him to block early together with spotremoval. But then he plays 2 Lackey. That's not too bad since he is in topdeckmode and so I still attack and ignore the Lackeys, but of course he topdecks like a champ (Matron and Ringleader, revealing Warchief and Piledriver and Siege Gang).

He's at 5 life and I'm at 14. My Goyf is tapped, he topdecks Mad Auntie which would make the lethal 14 damage. I have 1 handcard. Tropical island. But i know Florian, he is always thinking about the worst case scenario. Quote: "That single hand card has to be - according to Murphy's Law - the Hydroblast. Let's assume you have it, I guess I'll play safe." He attacks non-lethal and gives me 1 Turn. I peek at the top card, it's a BS. I play it and find Pyroclasm FOR T3H WIN!!! I swing with Goyf and he's at 0.

3-0-0

The last match I get paired against team colleague Marius "Chefkoch" Laber. We ID for Top2 split.

3-0-1 and tiebreakers make me 1st place.

Well, I was still sceptic at the end since I used the combo only once. But I burned out my opponent 3 times... I don't know whether the concept makes sense, but I am sure, when Locutus had that softlock out, I could not win without the combo.

But I think I built it pretty good, it's not too affixed on resolving Counterbalance (situational and dead against some matchups), bt can be aggressive at the same time. And even if you are not able to apply pressure, you can still win within 1 turn.

The sideboard was stuffed with miscellaneous stuff... But I have to say that Pyroblasts were godlike. Thanks to Goobafish here, I remembered what he said about REBs being key and so on.

But meh... Any ideas?

Another guy at our local tourneys and me played similar lists for a while and had similar results. Swan combo wins games but is used rarely because you can't assemble it or, and thats interesting, either Swans or the additional burn in form of Chain of Plasma help to win the game. Swan can be a hell of a beater sometimes where all you need is to get 4-8 damage through.

I think the question here is: Does the Swan combo add power to the deck making it stronger even if you use the combo only 1-2 times during a tourney or is it better to play standard UGr instead?

I still don't know the answer. I also tried to runs swans with just a lot of burn but I didn't test it enough and my list was also suboptimal. Basically a 10-12 burn list with Swan instead of Fledgeling Dragon.

Something like:
2-3 Swan
4 Bolt
2-4 Spitebellows (also very potent Goyf removal in red but sorcery speed sucks)
2-6 other burn

Possible burn spells:
Magma Jet
Fire/Ice
Psi Blast
Kindle
Parch
Pyroclasm
Rolling Earthquake

Back in the days when Goblins was the DTB I ran Earthquake over Clasm main because it wrecks Mongoose in the mirror and still gets damage through to the player. It was amazing. But with Swan you will sadly need Rolling Earthquake.

Another idea I had was to combine Swans with Moonthresh but I wasn't satisfied with the results.