[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

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Originally Posted by Aleksandr

I was unable to IGG for the kill, because I was short of some cards. And I was unable to double Doomsday, because I was... (drumroll) short of some cards. I was also unable to DD -> Meditate.win, because (I hope you already know it...) I was short of some cards.
I could pretty well won if I Emrakuled for sixteen and than went Rit+ToA, but I didn't notice that there's a possibility how to play it.
At the end of the day I really don't care how I win. Be it Mrak or Tendrils 42+, as long as I win, that's all I care about. And I failed at this quest.

The end.

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Well, to get into the emrakul pile with CoF, you need to have not hit your land drop this turn, have 1U available after doomsday, and a brainstorm+2 cards in hand (to brainstorm into shelldock+CoF). This means that you could have done this instead, given the exact same situation:

Brainstorm in hand, 1U available after doomsday:

SDT
LED
LED
IGG
TOA

Brainstorm into SDT LED LEd replacing the 2 cards, play all 3. Sac LEDs for BBBUUU and reorder with a blue to put IGG on top. Top into IGG, then IGG into Brainstorm LED LED with U floating. Play LED's, then brainstorm on the stack sac your LED's for BBBBBB. Draw into 2 cards and top, take top. Replay top, reorder (BBBB floating) top into tendrils and ToA for 10+doomsday+any other spells you platyed before.

So thanks for the snark, but unless you did a pass the turn stack against that board and somehow convinced him not to kill you so he could "see something really cool", I was right.

For what it's worth, you could have built a pass the turn pile that wins off 1U and 2 cards too which is the correct choice if you absolutely must pass the turn vs an aggro deck capable of putting a bunch of permanents into play.

You can also CoF into Emrakul via SDT in play and no Brainstorm (it's in the pile) via:

Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Shelldock Isle
Cloud of Faeries
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

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Originally Posted by emidln

For what it's worth, you could have built a pass the turn pile that wins off 1U and 2 cards too which is the correct choice if you absolutely must pass the turn vs an aggro deck capable of putting a bunch of permanents into play.

You can also CoF into Emrakul via SDT in play and no Brainstorm (it's in the pile) via:

Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Shelldock Isle
Cloud of Faeries
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

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I was going to say you'll deck, but you have two cards in hand (derf). BS cards into the deck, drop Shelly, hiding Emmy, drop LED, cast CoF, untapping Shell+Blue source, cast Emmy. Take turn to zerg opponent's face with Emmy plus CoF.

I think what this is really saying is that we need cloud of faeries main. While most or all of the problems it solves could be done with tendrils, its less complicated and makes winning easier. Also some of the problems it solves can't be done with tendrils. I'm cutting meditate from my list and putting Infernal contract in my wishboard.

Cutting Meditate from the main definitely seems like you'll lose to Zoo more due to burn.

Cutting Meditate is one of the worst ideas I've heard in awhile. If you want Cloud of Faeries, cut something else for it.

FWIW, I'm not currently running Burning Wish.

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Originally Posted by median

most or all of the problems it solves could be done with tendrils, its less complicated and makes winning easier.

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So what you're saying is that if the deck was played by a good pilot one wouldn't need to play with CoF? I mean, if its only purpose is to be a crutch that sounds terrible.

I'll say it again: CoF is a replacement for IGG that's better against blue decks. It fits into the same piles, letting you win the same ways. It requires shelldock+emmy MB though, taking you up to 5 slots not including IGG for "bad" cards that you don't want to see in an opener. Especially wiothout burning wish to get IGG, I wouldnt go this route.

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Originally Posted by emidln

FWIW, I'm not currently running Burning Wish.

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Interesting, are you trying a UB(x) list closer to Rev614 ?
Because with the last lists you / pulpfiction posted, I don't quite see what could replace BWish seemlessly.

I've tried a few things including maxing out Ponder, adding Personal Tutor, etc. and I wasn't really satisfied.
I assume you're running a full set of LDV to compensate, the card seems potentially awesome?

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Originally Posted by loop

Interesting, are you trying a UB(x) list closer to Rev614 ?
Because with the last lists you / pulpfiction posted, I don't quite see what could replace BWish seemlessly.

I've tried a few things including maxing out Ponder, adding Personal Tutor, etc. and I wasn't really satisfied.
I assume you're running a full set of LDV to compensate, the card seems potentially awesome?

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I can't think of anything to replace it. I'm running 4 BW, 3 DD, 3 LDV. In my opinion, those are the most versatile and powerful options. That aren't banned, of course, and that aren't Ponder. I hate Ponder with the fury of a thousand suns.

The only one I could/should be running that I'm not is Infernal Tutor. Rarely do I want to tutor for something I already have, and if I'm hellbent I can't see IT being profitable unless I intended on being hellbent.

I tried playing without burning wish also. I liked being able to cut red and increase the basic land count. However, I really felt the decreased access to doomsday. I don't personally like lim dul's vault much after trying it. I am now at 2 ponder, 2 infernal tutor, 3 burning wish. I thought of playing two cunning wish, as that would give access to pretty much everything I want in the board, but that seems like it would push the deck more towards turn four, which is obviously bad.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

blah.

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I had nothing but Top.

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Originally Posted by emidln

pass the turn

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Originally Posted by Aleksandr

Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.

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Originally Posted by emidln

pass the turn

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Originally Posted by Aleksandr

Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

pass the turn

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aleksandr

Because his board was Forest, Forest, Forest, Forest, Llanowar, Llanowar, Quirion, Priest of T., Priest of T., Archdruid, Archdruid, Archdruid, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Visionary, Fyndhorn, Champion, Messenger, Messenger, ESG, Empath, Empath, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Brass Herald, Symbiote, Symbiote, and he held Caller of the Claw.

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Originally Posted by emidln

pass the turn

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Thanks for your input guys!

I think the main advantage to dropping BW is to gain a 15 card sideboard with no singletons. This is something I would like to explore.

Burning wish is great because it can fetch you lots of needed tools but it leaves you with a side board thats next to useless. Dropping BW and using a full normal sideboard gives you a lot of options against a broad field. this is something that most other storm decks lack in the format right now.

Burning Wish lets you get this cards even pre-board. Most the BW decks don't use more than... IDK - six spells? And they are still useful.

The obvious Wishboard is something like this:

Doomsday
Tendrils
IGG (?)
IT (?)

Than you have some utility cards (depends on your colors) like Shattering Spree, Cleanfall, Deathmark. These serve both as a BW target as well as a normal sb material. Not that you must use them.

You can still put some number of "real" cards - not that the above ones are in any way unreal... - like Confidant, Grip, anything else... Crypt maybe? This deck is not the fastest in existance, so why lose to Ichorid? :really:

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Originally Posted by Aleksandr

I had nothing but Top.

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The pile still wins for 1U and 2 cards in hand, just replace the top with brainstorm. I'm just saying there was a better way to win, and you're disagreeing with me?

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

The pile still wins for 1U and 2 cards in hand, just replace the top with brainstorm. I'm just saying there was a better way to win, and you're disagreeing with me?

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I'm not sure what's the discussion about. I already wrote that I fucked up the pile. I can write it once again, if you're some kind of sadist that takes his pleasure from other people's bad luck. Than I wrote that I could pretty well won if I just Emrakuled for 16 and ToA for the remaining four. I can write it once again, 'cause my keyboard is fine and new.

Yeah, there are tons of other possible ways to win. What's the noise?

I'd like to know from those who are currently NOT running Burning Wish how their configuration looks like. I'm trying since the banning of Mystical Tutor to find a build that resembles as much as possible the old Fetchland Tendrils lists (i.e. running Chants) in a UBw/g shell having 4 Infernal Tutor as the main engine (mainly because I don't like to play Emrakul maindeck, a lot has been debated about this but I just want to keep a flexible structure without a potential dead topdeck or a Hellbent-clogger), 4 Chants, 3 Duresses, 4 Petals and 3 Cabal Rituals, and also 3 Doomsdays. The main advantage of not running BWish, has someone has already pointed out, is that you do not have to warp your sideboard to stretch all the possible solutions PLUS Wish targets into it. Some may argue that you till have access to something like 8-9 slots, but I found myself more comfortable with the maximum space avaiable, especially considering that now, without Mystical, we're forced to run more redundant anti-hate solutions that have to fall under precise categories (hatebear removal, artifacts and permanent-based removal, CB hate plus Emrakul package for Cb, Discard, control decks and randomness like Solidarity).
Something along the line of:

SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers/Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away

Lets you have multiple solutions to each of the aforementioned problematic cards without being forced to do sketchy sideboarding and card selection due to having half of the space.
For some it could be better to still pack BWish and I get its utility when it allows you to both grab a storm piece and a solution and that's prefectly true, I know it since I play TES; but I would like to try something along the line of what Doomsday ANT has been, which was, for me, the Storm Combo version I loved the most (and had the most success with).

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The obvious flaw in this is that Doomsday, preboard, fully depends on a cantrip, because you can't go PTT DDay because of the lack of Emrakul. While I sometimes regret about it and i haven't completely made my mind on it, I'm willing to lose this option, since I easily realized how many times I lost due to drawing Emrakul as an essentially blank card, or discarding it to LED and basically negating my Igg-plan.
I found out Emrakul is essentially dead in these matchups:
-Tempo decks: New Horizons, Faeries, Merfolk, and such. Not only because of Wasteland, but also for Stifling the Hideway or the ativation, which may delay you one turn and cost the game.
-Other combo decks: sometimes cutting your life in a half and pass makes them only need for 4 spells and a Tendrils. You say Cloud of Faeries? If you would have the mana to use it, couldn't you be able to win via Tendrils on the spot? (Btw, against blue disruption, I don't like how Cloud of Faeries makes the piles vulnerable to Spell Snare, which has always been the great plus of DD-stacks).
Belcher? not really.
Ichorid? Emrakul is worthless past turn 2.
-Zoo decks: if you don't resolve it on turn1/2 and they drop a Nacatl, it's not great.
-LD black decks.
-Artifact-based. Blood Moon; Wasteland; Ensnaring Bridge.

Now, I could imagine it being still decent against all these (except those good saving Wasteland because of knowing the deck) if we could, say, go t1 Duress and t2 Doomsday for Shelldock on a regulr basis. But this happened really when there was a 1-mana instant U-tutor to grant the effectiveness-and the speed- of this kill. How much is Emrakul going to be effective when you manage to resolve a Dd through counters on turn 3 and the opponent has already set him with a Vial down, some Fish, or already has 2-3 mana out and a Nacatl + another random dork? I don't believe it's going to make it through a lot.
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You also have to resolve a Chant to go for the classical loop kill, but that's pretty obvious.

The speed is still quite good since the inclusion of the whole shell of the old FT variant, granting a great game against aggro; but it still keeps the resilience against blue-based. It's true that I'm going to lose 99% of the games against Counterbalance and Trinisphere (I just run 1 Chain of Vapor maindeck and that's for Gaddock Teeg, constantly maindecked in the Zoo builds here). Still, i'm of the felling the including Emrakul and Shelldock would increase your dead cards in the opening to:
-Meditate;
-Tendrils;
-Ill Gotten;
-Emrakul;
-Shelldock being half-dead, if you use it after Bs to get rid of the chaff, you preclude yourself the Emrakul plan.
-a Bounce spell (because you still have to run it not to lose from randomness).

That's a total of 6, or better, 5 and a half. Of course some are workable depending on the rest of the hand, but those are generally the cards you don't want to see in the first 7.
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Why still Chants? Because I have the feeling those lists running 4 Duress and 3 Thoughtseize are weakening the Igg-Loop very much. While I see that some think that its only purpose is to give a fast win against aggro, it's also true that sometimes you will also lose to Zoo having double Bolt or Bolt+Helix in the graveyard and recuring it,or even to random crap like someone Plowsharing their guys. Or even to Fow+Stifle recurred from tempo decks, where the Emrakul plan is generally not recommended (ok, there's Pithing Needle, but honestly, I don't believe packing cards with the purpose of protecting a single aspect of the deck is worth the space and the slot.)
Why not 7 Chants? Because they're dead against too many archetypes, and usually I find out that the general metagame is not really only geared towards blue-based, but the post-MT ban has opened a wider range bringing back rogue decks and tiers 2 like Enchantress and such. Also, Duress gives you hand information, and etc etc. You know these things very well.
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Also, I know it may sound noobish, but I've toyed around with Lim Dul's Vault, and just didn't like it. Paying 2 to stack your deck at the expense of some life is a powerful effect, but it's just plain too slow (especially on the draw), eats Cursecatcher, Daze and Wasteland very easily, usually does not leave you mana to spin SDT, and losing lives in a deck that already relies half of the time on resolving a half-life-cut sorcery, paired with fetchlands and opponent's beats, and with a speed that's not comparable to what ANT had, gives the aggro and the fast aggro-control deck (Merfolks) quite a hand.

I think I would play something like this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36916 but with a few minor changes.

You're probably right about not playing Emrakul maindeck. It will most likely screw you over more times than it will be helpful in this metagame. Without the ability to tutor for Brainstorm, I think it's too risky to play that many potentially dead cards mainboard. In the past it was worth the 2 slots because there were a lot of Reanimator decks in addition to CB decks, but now there are only CB decks and a few Wasteland-less control decks where Emrakul will be good.

I had to switch my Chants for Thoughtseize when Reanimator became a good deck, but I will switch back to Chant now. Being able to ignore Stifle, Spell Snare etc. is really good.

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Originally Posted by kikoo

I think I would play something like this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36916 but with a few minor changes.

You're probably right about not playing Emrakul maindeck. It will most likely screw you over more times than it will be helpful in this metagame. Without the ability to tutor for Brainstorm, I think it's too risky to play that many potentially dead cards mainboard. In the past it was worth the 2 slots because there were a lot of Reanimator decks in addition to CB decks, but now there are only CB decks and a few Wasteland-less control decks where Emrakul will be good.

I had to switch my Chants for Thoughtseize when Reanimator became a good deck, but I will switch back to Chant now. Being able to ignore Stifle, Spell Snare etc. is really good.

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I'm glad you quoted my own list buddy, I didn't notice I finished on Deckcheck for the second time ! :D:D
Tell me what would you change. From that tournament, since I lost due to having Wipe Away and not Chain of Vapor maindeck to bounce a regular 2nd-turn Gaddock Teeg from Zoo,and also lots of times drawing multiple, un-necessary Doomdays, I did:

-1 Wipe Away, -1 Doomsday, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Infernal Tutor.

I also have some feeling I'd like to try Preordain in here to give the deck more "fluidity" (does that exist in English?), but I think it's not strictly neessary, given 11 cantrips, and I don't want to clog the deck's (already reduced) speed with 2-3 full turns of cantripping, which sometimes already happen.

Haha, nice. I guess I will playtest your list then, but with Chain in mainboard instead of Wipe.

Picelli, I think you made very good points. I just played a few games on MWS and I didn't like the Emrakul plan very well... I gonna use it in the real, because he is such a massive threat in our metgame, but I wish to play a bit more straightforward (be it Wish build, or even more straightforward non-Wish deck) after quite some tournaments.

How does your decklist look like? Btw, I don't think that it is impossible to build a flexible list that both uses Wish and does not clog the sb with too much randomness. Namely when bounce is usualy used as a set of one-ofs, that get rid of hatebear, Moon, taxing effect, Iona, anything...

But I really understand that going 5c is a bit difficult and losing games to Waste/Sinkhole is bothersome. The Wish decklist could use zero Chants and go UBgr, but than there's that problem with IGG loops been much more vulnerable.

And, with the rise of Grim Monolith decks... is Serenity good sideboard material? I know that it eats Moxes (and interacts with Top...), but it can destroy any number of permanent hate, no matter what composition of Spheres, Chalices* and Cannonist the opponent landed...

* yeah, I know, CotV@2 kills the card.

EDIT: :smile: the decklist thingie