Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
By definition, the Balance/Top match up is defined by speed, you either Duress the opponent's Counterbalance or you win before it resolves. SBing in ETW is an effective strategy against Balance/Top, because the opponent A) Doesn't play Stifle B) SBs out his removal C) doesn't counter your acceleration and D) you resolve Empty the Warrens before your opponent resolves Counterbalance.
It's not a question of play Belcher vs play TES vs play AnT vs play DDFT, it's determining which strategies are the most effective against Counterbalance and integrating them into TES. Those strategies are more or less Duress, Empty the Warrens and Vexing Shusher in that order.
Sweepers are way, way overrated, they're either not present or only present in limited numbers, where the math favors you. Also, Ad Nauseam reduces the risk of Empty the Warrens, because unlike the Infernal Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains chain, you can now dump all of your resources into Empty the Warrens, have your army swept, and then top deck into a 1 card bomb and go off regardless.
TES isn't DDFT, we win before bad shit happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
I have really had a lot of succes with this deck and I liked my plan against CB. I would board in the 2nd, 3rd and maybe 4th EtW, plus 4 Duress, boarding out the AdN's except for one (I played 3), some Ponders, Chants and something like 1 Wish. Trying to get CB off the table is just hopeless, it costs you too many recources and your opponent will usually still win, because of the time you give him. He'll find a 2nd CB, draw too many counters from Confidant, beat you too death or counter your attempt to get rid of CB.
So I just focus on winning or comboing with EtW as fast as possible. Your odds aren't great, but better than when you wait. Look at the chance you'll win when you cast EtW turn 1-3: most CB decks run 0 to 2 EE's. This means that you will lose to EE some games. But the majority of the times, they won't have it. It's not a nice position to be in, waiting to get blown away, but it works.
Additionally, when CB lands, the EtW plan is still possible. If you find/draw one, you just play a bunch of spells, of which only some that make 3R together need to resolve, and you have a good chance of winning.
Of course, if I get a good hand, I'll still just try to win on ToA with protection. The route I take depends mostly on the hand I get.
Oh, and incidentally Duress also works if they have EE at hand or CB ofcourse.
Is no one interested in this? I thought everyone was searching for a good way to battle Counterbalance.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I'm testing 2 copies of ETW to board in in place of Pyroblast. The strategy might work, and feel like Pyroblast is the weakest SB slot anyway: Good to deal with CB, but the dissynergy with LED lost me many games.
Currently testing with 4 Duress 3 Chant MD too, but probably will come back to the 3/4 split: the 4th chant is useless in the SB, where the SB duress can be a wish target from time to time.
Would you guys suggest taking out all the AN but one and take in the wishable ETW too?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GreenOne
I'm testing 2 copies of ETW to board in in place of Pyroblast. The strategy might work, and feel like Pyroblast is the weakest SB slot anyway: Good to deal with CB, but the dissynergy with LED lost me many games.
Currently testing with 4 Duress 3 Chant MD too, but probably will come back to the 3/4 split: the 4th chant is useless in the SB, where the SB duress can be a wish target from time to time.
Would you guys suggest taking out all the AN but one and take in the wishable ETW too?
SBing in Empty the Warrens is kind of tricky, I actually prefer SBing out Tendrils of Agony and Infernal Tutors depending on the opponent's soft counters, because you're essentially side step Spellsnare with all 1cc acceleration into either Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens.
I swear it's 4xDuress and XOrim's Chant with Mystical Tutor in the MD. Arguing a Duress is better in the SB because you can wish for it is kind of sketchy reasoning, you could just as easily wish for Thought Seize or even Cabal Therapy at that rate. You simply do not want to reduce your odds of ripping Counterbalance game 1 for any reason, on the draw it's life or death most of the time.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
I swear it's 4xDuress and XOrim's Chant with Mystical Tutor in the MD. Arguing a Duress is better in the SB because you can wish for it is kind of sketchy reasoning, you could just as easily wish for Thought Seize or even Cabal Therapy at that rate. You simply do not want to reduce your odds of ripping Counterbalance game 1 for any reason, on the draw it's life or death most of the time.
It's not for the counterbalance reason. It's just because Duress is overall good against almost any kind of deck, hitting other combo decks, artifact hate, discard, etc. It's not like we're only facing blue decks, and I'm sure I want the best win percentage against anything non-blue first. I'm also a bit sceptic about the disruption spells that have to be played during the combo turn, being less and less attracted by pyroblast and chant and more by swarm and duress. That's why the ETW idea intrigued me.
Are you siding in all the ETW or leaving one in the SB to wish for?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
That is one thing that I did against the Bassaruption deck was board out: -1 Ad Nauseam and +! Empty the Warrens.. It worked out great, me Emptying for 6 goblins, and him having a Confidant on the table made for a pretty easy win.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I agree, Duress is good vs the entire field, but it's especially good against your worst match up. Being on color, being able to cast it before you combo and being able to cast it off of Dark Ritual is also incredibly underrated, Duress' mana efficiency is why Tinder Wall has worked so well for me IMO.
I SB 4 Empty the Warrens game 1, and then I SB 1 Empty the Warrens and MD 3 Empty the Warrens game 2; there's nothing wrong with MDing 4 Empty the Warrens in theory, but I don't like the idea of pigeon holing Burning Wish into just Diminishing Returns.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
I SB 4 Empty the Warrens game 1
So your only out game 1 is Tendrils of Agony?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Mystical Tutor
2 Ad Nauseum
1 Cabal Ritual
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:1 Vindicate
SB:2 Xantid Swarm
SB:3 Shattering Spree
in reference to the above list, this deck has 16 spells requiring red mana
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
3 pyroblast
3 shattering spree
but only 11 spells requiring blue mana
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 mystical tutor
1 chain of vapor
1 diminishing returns
can someone explain to me why x2 underground seas would be better than x2 badlands ? because the brainstorms/ponders/mystical tutors get played more often ? so more blue is needed in the long run ?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Brainstorms, Ponders, and Mystical Tutors are your set-up spells. You want to be able to cast them early in the game to find what you need. Red is mainly needed when you're going off, so it's less important to have permanent mana sources that make red mana.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fearphage
So your only out game 1 is Tendrils of Agony?
You either Infernal Tutor for Tendrils of Agony or, in the event you discarded your Tendrils of Agony, Infernal Tutor for Burning Wish and then Burning Wish for either Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens.
The MD kill condition isn't really necessary, all it does is reduce the amount of mana for Ad Nauseam -> Infernal Tutor/Mystical Tutor + Brainstorm/Ponder -> Tendrils of Agony compared to Ad Nauseam -> Infernal Tutor/Mystical Tutor +Brainstorm/Ponder -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony and stop them from Meddling Mage -> Burning Wish and forcing you to either lose the game or Mystical Tutor for bounce.
As an aside, those Duel lands are just fucking awful; Forbidden Orchard and Glimmervoid have reasonable penalties, and the Duel lands lose random games to severe color screw. They're especially bad with Empty the Warrens, Tinder Wall, Vexing Shusher and Orim's Chant ... and the "set up" reasoning for U over R doesn't really hold IMO, because Burning Wish is used a lot as a set up card also.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
How does the argument against the red based lands not hold water? In the beginning you need blue to set up... in my typical case, I go for Ad Nos... Then when I cast Ad Nos I will always find any needed red sources... I have VERY RARELY needed red pre-going off except against counter/top where I attempt to play duck hunt with Counterbalance...
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nodahero
How does the argument against the red based lands not hold water? In the beginning you need blue to set up... in my typical case, I go for Ad Nos... Then when I cast Ad Nos I will always find any needed red sources... I have VERY RARELY needed red pre-going off except against counter/top where I attempt to play duck hunt with Counterbalance...
It doesn't hold because Burning Wish is both a threat and a set up spell, so not being able to T1 Land + Chrome Mox, Burning Wish -> Thought Seize would really hurt your T2 protected win percentages.
Duel lands are just bad in a 3+ color deck with so few lands; you guys are seriously going to kick yourselves for playing them eventually.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
It doesn't hold because Burning Wish is both a threat and a set up spell, so not being able to T1 Land + Chrome Mox, Burning Wish -> Thought Seize would really hurt your T2 protected win percentages.
Duel lands are just bad in a 3+ color deck with so few lands; you guys are seriously going to kick yourselves for playing them eventually.
Well, Forbidden Orchard, Glimmervoid, and Undiscovered Paradise have all killed me with their drawbacks too. I'm pretty content with my chances on playing Seas. You can't downplay how much U-Sea -> Go throws your opponent either.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I haven't been able to test this out with the seas, but it seems to me that we are so color intensive I really want the ability to go off with any color with a land that I get.
Maybe the seas are worth it , for having no drawback, and it is a very nice bluff, but something like that can only be a surprise once or twice.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Well, Forbidden Orchard, Glimmervoid, and Undiscovered Paradise have all killed me with their drawbacks too. I'm pretty content with my chances on playing Seas. You can't downplay how much U-Sea -> Go throws your opponent either.
It's why I started playing them. ;p
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
troopatroop
Well, Forbidden Orchard, Glimmervoid, and Undiscovered Paradise have all killed me with their drawbacks too. I'm pretty content with my chances on playing Seas. You can't downplay how much U-Sea -> Go throws your opponent either.
After City of Brass and Gemstone Mine, there are no good choices, but from testing I firmly believe that not having the right mana is far worse than having a 1/1 on the other side of the board.
It's a 5c deck, Dual Lands just aren't going to be very consistent in the long run. Plus, Forbidden Orchard and Tinder Wall have like the greatest synergy ever:tongue:
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
here's the list i'm trying atm. i'm finding myself very comfortable with it, despites it may seem a bit "odd " for some inclusions and maindeck tunings.
Here we go:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
2 [MR] Glimmervoid
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Spells
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [US] Duress
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Ponder
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [CON] Telemin Performance
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
So, basically, i found Infernal tutor in 4 copies to be most of the time redundant and not that really useful or optimal, so i cut it to 2 copies ( which seems to be the latest tendency among the TES players, btw) in order to fit the 3rd and the 4th mystical. I know, this inclusion may suggest this deck isn't what was used to be called " TES " one time, but i found mystical to be so useful and versatile ( and synergic with Led-nauseam upkeep tricks) that i couldn't not power up the full set. That card grabs the entire deck and solves the most problematic situations, and allows to play mana untapped adapting to the board situation, period.
Since Infernal tutor was pretty gone, i didn't find a reasonable choice to still keep IGG maindeck, also because i found it to be pretty underwhelming these last times among a sea of snares and fows which can be recurred during the loop by the oppo, and substitued it with a singleton copy of EtW, which seems the best way to achieve a quick victory since g1 agaisnt slow-controllish decks packing Cb+Top, where Ad Nauseam is less likely to get resolves in a quick time. Moreover, the fact that they expect nauseam after some rituals and instead they get 8-10 gobs on their teeth is a winning choice, most of the times.. unless they drop their e.e., of course.
The cut of IGG may be referred also to another choice: in the protections package, i swapped the number of duresses for the chants , and found it to be a good decision. Of course, the duresses are in colour, and other advantagaes other people have already explained. The only fault Duress shows is that, most of the times, it will be brainstormed in response, and, most of all, i found a little weaknes since it doesn't prevent the opponent from cashing in the top and play that force he had the top3s, fucking us hard (usually on the key spell). Btw, has anyone noticed this thing, which seems to be really hurting the comboing mechanic?
For maindeck bouncer, i opted for truth instead of Chain, since Chain sucks against chalice @1 or multiple chalices, and against Cb too, most of the times. It never happened, btw, that i did the "bounce moxes " trick.
Last but not least, Sb packs the ultra new-tech played also by Kolowith durng the Gp chicago, the Alara'd Telemin Preformance, which is usually an automatic gg against landstill (unless he plays eternal dragons, which are likely to be sided out g2 to make room for other blue cards to be pitched to FoW, however) or against storm combo mirror. Seems kinda good.
Or sexy, at least.
The glimmervoids have been really nice for me, and i was never hurt hat much by their drawbacks. And forbidden orchard for the long run WAY sucks, but 1 -ofs is acceptable.
Ah, i also tried to squeeze the "5 fetches + 1 dual of each color+ 4 gemstones" configuration, but effectively, not being able to Orim the opponent even in their upkeep because you have a badland/volcanic/sea is very, very hurting. Rainbow lands 4 life, even if they don't provide shuffle effects ( for that, 4 tutors+2 ponders is quite enough).
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Not once, either day did Kolowith cast Telemin Performance. You sure it's worth the sideboard slot?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Not once, either day did Kolowith cast Telemin Performance. You sure it's worth the sideboard slot?
I TP'ed one opponent once who was playing Fetchland ANT. GGed. But still, i'm not sure, yes. It could be a further protection slot or something else.
BtW, siding in multiple copies of EtW seems good in g2, if unexpected by an opponent who knows the "traditional " TES list, so i 'll leave them as long as they'll provide their work.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
From testing, I'm not impressed with any dual (Underground Sea nor Badlands) . I could need 1 of any of the 5 colors on turns 1-3 and not having access to them hurts more than the benefit of misleading the opponent for a few turns.
@Bryant: How do you handle non-japanese, non-foil cards in your deck? I assume they are at least black bordered, right?
