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Not sure if any of you saw this, but vroman did a tournament report on a Landstill variant he played at the GP. It looks pretty bizarre to me, but hey what do I know, he did decently well.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37544.0
He cut Brainstorm for Thirst, Counterspell for Negate, and used Chrome Mox to power out a higher than usual enchantment count. Manlands as the only win-cons. Huh? Also note he lost the mirror, facing superior card drawing and board control.
Hmm, I don't really think so. With Landstill you normally play 25 turns at least. And if you resolve Brainstorms and Standstills you will see probably about 1/2 to 2/3 of your Deck to find win conditions. And as I said before, mostly the problem is not finding win conditions, it's staying alive long enough to win with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I played 1-2 FoF for a long time in older Landstill Builds and it wasn't bad of course. But my Intention was to keep Landstill fast enough, to keep up with faster Decks. To get 1-2 FoF in, I would have to cut some Counterspells and I am afraid of this.
I think I will cut one Counterspell for a FoF and see if it is better. FoF is FoW-pitchable which makes it maybe better than an Enligthened Tutor.
If you can keep your opponent in check for the next 13 turns, then this logic should work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spur Grappler
If you want to keep up with faster decks, that doesn't mean cut FoF; that means run more early game answers like Spell Snare. I also see Stifle in there too... but Stifle is so situational.Quote:
I played 1-2 FoF for a long time in older Landstill Builds and it wasn't bad of course. But my Intention was to keep Landstill fast enough, to keep up with faster Decks. To get 1-2 FoF in, I would have to cut some Counterspells and I am afraid of this.
Cut your Stifles altogether for a couple FoFs and other random cards. Stifles just don't do that much, especially against your trouble match ups. Also, TES isn't a valid answer; they run Chants and Ad Nauseam.Quote:
I think I will cut one Counterspell for a FoF and see if it is better. FoF is FoW-pitchable which makes it maybe better than an Enligthened Tutor.
Since you're using Green for your 3rd color for EE anyway I'd definitely run a Life from the Loam, it makes you're Intuition piles that much more busted.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
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Originally Posted by Citrus-God
This may be true. I really like Stifle because of it's flexibility, but countering fetchlands, which of course stays very strong, works mainly against good matchups. Against problematic decks like Dragon/Fairy Stompy, Mono U Faeries/Merfolk and most other aggro Stifle isn't that strong. I'll try 2 FoF and Wrath for them I think.
I for one, absolutely love stifle in landstill. I've said it before; stifling a first or second turn fetch land is extremely powerful. :wink:
The lack of stifle in the common landstill deck-lists results in more people walking into a first turn stifle. In those cases, the game feels... just.. easy...
I say if you like stifle, use it.
Stifle is strong if you have enough pressure to back it up in the early game. Which is why decks like thresh/ merfolk/ fish ect. play it. Decks like Landstill simply do not have the kind of pressure to make stifle the insane card it really is when you need it. I'm willing to be that your reasoning behind stifle being soo good is that of the sloppy play into suprise factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
Landstill applies pressure... a very different kind of pressure. Decks that generally run LD tend to apply pressure by winning. When a deck like Landstill applies pressure, it's different. What Landstill tries to achieve when it uses LD is to use the gained tempo to set up a more dominant position over the opponent. That in itself becomes pressure because winning for you becomes inevitable if you achieve the dominant position. This is also why using LD in control decks is much more efficient compared to aggro; because if the LD fails, you can fallback easier. This is also why Geoff Smelski runs Vindicate, because if LD aspect fails, then you can just use Vindicate to blow things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
This is very true, the Waste and Vindicate strategy as Mana Denial come's out of nowhere and is usually game against decks like Survival. Stifle is different than Vindicate though, I've never had much luck with a dedicated Mana Denial strategy in Landstill outside of Crucible + Waste. The Vindicate's are alway's useful and Stifle is situationally a bomb. Stifle would probably work best in lists that are running Plainswalkers in the MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Interesting perspective. I think i'd have to play a list that runs wasteland/stifle or vindicate in order to get a better perspective. The last time I ran stifle/wasteland in landstill had to be sometime in 06 when I first began playing the archtype. As for the general approach I don't really prefer the strategy as my flavor of approach, but I should test it anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
BTW quick update, 4x spell snare has been absurdly good. Having that 40% chance in the opener has been regularly brutal. The switch has been more then worth it. Sorry Ponder :(
What do you guys think of Vendilion Clique? It would help (?) you against combo mu and it would also be a great finisher with evasion. You could also take and put your unwanted decree on the bottom of your library and draw needed answers ;).
But I'm just pondering here, haven't really tried it yet.
Mossivo likes 'em. They seem like really good utility if you can find room. They are quite fragile, however. So it's probably very meta dependent.
At the GP, I ran stifle and vindicate out of the board (my list is a few pages back). Both cards are good in the mirror. I've certainly won a lot more games stifling planewalkers/decree/deed/all goblins than turbo land destruction. It was nice having that option though.
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Originally Posted by Ziilot
I tryed them out and they were always like "oh, you have two plowshares and another removal...hmmmm...keep it".
Since I really like the card I`d like to hear some pros for the card :)
I can see where one might consider stifle in the board but I strongly disagree with vindicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakkon
Stifle actually has a solid purpose in its demeaner to stop combo/ gain solid tempo in certain matchups but vindicate to me is such an all purpose utility card that I would think its either maindecked or just isn't run. There simply in my mind is no reason to run it in the sideboard.
If anything, play the lists with Vindicate. Stifle is such a mediocre card.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Hmm I dont know, if your thinking of the random ld approach stifle+Vind. + Wasteland seems even stronger then normal approaches, but then again I guess it depends on how deep the rabbit hole goes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I've played a lot of builds with Stifle/Wasteland. 4c Landstill was awful because it was inconsistent, UWG Epic Landstill was decent but Stifles didn't do much outside of pitching to FoW and Stifle didn't matter when I was playing against Threshold. The mild LD elements would blunder out on me because Thresh was designed to fight Wastelands and other forms of LD in mind thanks to their cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I'd prefer Vindicate and Wasteland, mainly because Vindicate can destroy lands, Counterbalance, Goyfs and Gaddock Teeg.
Do we not remember the hilarity that this post brought:
? Apparently not. Why run stifle in your ld package. Run Vindicate. It answers anything in the format besides nimble mongoose.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockoutI lol'dQuote:
Originally Posted by Ch@osnopeQuote:
Originally Posted by Viscosity
And Nimble Mongoose can be answered via WoG or Mishra's Factory. Decks that generally run Mongoose and removal spells generally run Brainstorms. People tend to Brainstorm their removal away. That's a valid reason to trade Factories for Mongeese.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout