Temporal Isolation is great because if you put it on a goyf and the opponent wants to use EE to blow up Isolation, they pop their own goyf too. That's a serious advantage over Journey.
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Temporal Isolation is great because if you put it on a goyf and the opponent wants to use EE to blow up Isolation, they pop their own goyf too. That's a serious advantage over Journey.
As to the question of whether Jitte still has a place in the new meta: I'd argue that if anything it's actually now more important than before. Mirror matches and aggro v. aggro matches are going to be rampant in Columbus, and he who lands the first Jitte often wins in these. All three of Jitte's modes are back-breaking against aggro - removal for opposing lynxes/nacatls/winning goyf wars, +2/+2s again for Goyf wars and speed, and lifegain to slow down their clock while keeping yours fast. Admittedly, the lifegain is by far the weakest of the three, but since our fundamental turn is generally t4, Jitte is certainly fast enough to hit the table and turn games around.
Honestly, I'm thinking about moving to the Stoneforge package build (1 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 Collar) maindeck. Collar/Lavamancer is pretty powerful against New Horizons, which I imagine will also become a dominating player in this meta. Their threats are huge compared to ours, and Collar, even if we don't see Lavamancer, makes their attack step much harder to calculate. Stoneforge itself seems weak, but as a singleton it really doesn't slow us down much, and it gives us a lot of tutoring flexibility (having two Jittes in deck risks seeing them both in the same hand, which is invariably bad).
I have taken Library out though. Generally the card quality has never really made up for the tempo loss - I'd almost always rather just see burn (or even lands for my current build which runs lynx over ape), and very few matchups give me the opportunity to eat the extra life to even make up the CA from having to play the spell in the first place. I know that in longer mirror path battles, Library will make a difference, but the loss of speed just doesn't feel right in the current meta to me.
Also, you can pop it on your own Goyf or Knight, swing through a clogged board, and blow up the Isolation with Pridemage after blockers to deal the last few damage to your opponent can sometimes be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
EDIT: Temporal Isolation. I totally forgot it had flash; maybe we should tag cards more often. :rolleyes:
Never mind it has um... flash?Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
I see eye to eye with you and have mirrored many changes, but let's be fair; we're just speculating until the next big gig sets teh scene. I assume that'll be GP Columbus, unless theres another 5k or two before that weekend. Collar does seem very strong against New Horizons before they go get their Grips. Good inputQuote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon
I had been thinking about the same thing as well, which is why I posted a list with collar in it a few pages back. My only concern is that they'll just EE for 1 to destroy it, but is that still worth it then? Luckily they'll probably want to play EE early though, so we can hold onto collar until they've used their EE.
SCG St. Louis is this weekend, but the update doesn't even matter for that, and the next one is in August.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
@valtrix: they can EE it, Grip (from the sideboard) it, FoW it, Stifle SFM's ability, daze it but that can be played around. That's 14 cards maindeck that they have to handle it. Now that i wrote all that out...makes it seem kinda fragile lol
So I decided to go against my normal non-interactive roots and swing with hardcast dudes in Legacy. Here's what I'm looking at right now:
//Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress
//Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
//Lands
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
//Sideboard
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Price of Progress
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
A pretty standard Zoo build, a little heavy on the burn. I guess the question is, am I going to want any of the following cards maindeck:
Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, Sylvan Library, Gaddock Teeg, or Fireblast
The SB is pretty slapdash, but I wanted to cover the major bases of GY hate, storm hate, anti-aggro cards in Jitte, and anti-CB cards in Kgrip. What savage tech did I miss?
Card availability will not be an issue. Also, the tournament I will be taking this deck to is taking place pre-bannings, for what that changes (Fireblast? Steppe Lynx? Teeg?)
Thanks for your help.
I think if you're willing to punt storm matches, you'll shore up pretty much the rest of the field. Burn heavy builds will get there more than decks cold to Firespout.
If I wanted to make my storm matchup a bit more liveable, What about squeezing two Teeg in MD and one SB for a land, Lion, and SB price?
Last tourney, the top 8 was CBTop Prog, Goblins, Merfolk x2, Ad Nauseum Tendrils x2, Belcher, UW Tempo, so punting storm seems a bad plan.
I mean, I maindeck two Teegs, but it is just a delay tactic. There's not much you can do outside of Mindbreak trapping to keep them off Ad Nauseum that'll give you a better chance. About the best hand you can open with would be two or three nacatls, a teeg, and a MBT with enough lands. Then a simple duress can wreck your day. Sure this is all speculation, just saying
I personally really like pyroblast and REB for the top matchup.... 2 blast 2 REB 2-3 grip
Ozymandias .... I like the list but I would make room for 3 Lynx.
-1 loam lion
-1 path
-1 helix or price of progress
you still have the balance of mid to late game strength and early explosivness with lynx ... It's so
easy turn 2 7 damge to the head with the lynx I think it would be silly not to play .
Turn 1: land and lynx
Turn 2: fetch for land, lynx 4/5, burn(or path), burn
Ps. A lot of people think lynx sucks late game but it really isn't that bad when you have 1-2 pridemage or knight out.
I just saw you aren't fireblast ... I really like 2 maindeck because of the sick tech with knight
I'm leery of cutting Paths because they are really your only out for creatures bigger than bolt range, but I could cut a helix and a lion. that gives me 12 1-drops between nacatl/mancer/lion/lynx.
The speed of fireblast is very helpful in the current meta, so you would be well served by swapping two helixes for two fireblasts.
Yea path is never bad especially against new horizons ... Path works good if you
need mana or if you you're playing blast and need to sac
Yea path is never bad especially against new horizons ... Path works good if you
need mana or if you you're playing blast and need to sac
I just heard a rumor guys. Mystical Tutor might be banned, so you don't have to run bad inconsistent cards to speed up the deck anymore.
From me to you,
The Zoo-ru
P.S.-Jitte is broken. Run the card before you make snap judgments:smile:
Or, if you like winning, you can actually pay attention to what mystical tutor's banning means for the meta, and adjust your deck accordingly.
But that would be... gasp... smart.
I win a lot with my list, and against Counterbalance decks designed to rape aggro as well. All Mystical Tutor getting banned tells me is that I'll get to play the same list I've been playing with because the format will slow down again. I don't have to worry about getting jizzed all over by some combo deck as much. That extra turn I'll get is all I'll need to finish the game. I'm prepared to play against everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
Presumably it means the format's top combo decks (Reanimator and ANT) are slower and less consistent than they used to be. As a result the agro deck's need to win quick/explosively (less need for Lynx/Gob Guide/Fireblast) loses some value compared to maintaining their own consistency (more midranged geared: lands, Jitte, Sylvan, KotR). It probably means the format as a whole will slow down some, and that big control decks (Landstill, ~39 Lands, and Ultimate Walker) will have a place in the meta again as agro and agro control will be running rampant and traditionally dedicated control can metagame to beat the top agro/agro control decks, where it was harder to be well prepared for them and Mystical Tutor powered Reanimator and ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
To prepare the deck for this sort of meta shift, it probably make sense to develop a SB strategy to gear towards speed versus control and to gear toward winning the attrition battles versus agro.
To me things that jump out as strong hate cards for Zoo for the upcoming metagame include: Gaddock Teeg (EE, AdN, Tendrils, Jace TMS, Elspeth, Humility), Stoneforge Mystic (Jitte wins agro mirrors, SFM provides card advantage while tutoring it), Eternal Witness (out of the SB is really good in the agro mirrors and control as well, recycling PTEs and Bolts, while providing a body to clog the board), Tin Street Hooligan (another CitP ability - one that hits opposing Jittes, Aether Vials, Vedalken Shackles, CotV@1, etc).
This is the list I'm currently testing:
// Land 21
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
// Creatures 22
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Relequary
//Spells 17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
Artifacts
1 Basilisk Collar
Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Price of Progress
Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sorceries
3 Chain Lightning
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Lands
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
This is the list i have been testing since the ban announcement. The decks that are most regularly in my metagame are:
Merfolk
Bant
NO Bant
Lands
Imperial Painter
Zoo
Rogue
There used to be a reanimator player and one ad nauseum player so they will both have to switch and they will probably switch to a blue deck making painter even more powerful of a deck. I do not have imperial recruiters though.
One stoneforge and one sylvan library has been testing really well. You almost never want 2 libraries. Stoneforge mystic also give you an extra shuffle effect with library which is quasi useful. I have been very, very impressed with basilisk collar. I would be playing sharpshotter in the board if i was in a more aggro metage.
-Cheers-
The Reanimator and ANT players won't "have to switch" just because of the banning of Mystical Tutor. Yes, its banning hurts both decks' consistency, but it doesn't mean that the decks will cease being played. Reanimator can play Intuition instead. Although it costs two more, it can put two creatures into the yard at once or get the entomb, exhume, force of will, etc. that they need. And ANT players can play a 4th IT, along with more Ponders and Thoughtseize. So don't dismiss these decks from the format, as I'll bet that they will still be represented in the top 8s of the big tournaments this summer.
Welp, this weekend I'm going to be battling with this list. Maybe something different on Sunday, as I might have to redo the sideboard. Maindeck I am happy with, I just haven't run it in any tournaments as of yet.
Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gaddock Teeg
Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
Utility
4 Path to Exile
1 Sylvan Library
11 Fetchlands
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain/forest/plains
SB:
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jitte
1 Basilisk collar
3 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
I haven't played legacy since GP Brussels and therefore can't come up with a tuned list. We'll see. I can't wait though, gonna be awesome. I'd still like to hear people chime in on the Ape vs. Lynx vs. Lion argument. Maybe one day I'll run lynxs over the lions, just to see for myself.
Well, the way I see it, Lynx vs Ape/Lion comes down to speed vs. consistency, and to a lesser extent offensive vs. defensive power. With a fetch, Lynx will go for 4 on turn 2, but that's not always the case, and if you don't have a steady stream of mana, then your Lynx is going to be a very sad 0/1. Also, you need an active knight or fetches to ever make a non-chump block. Ape and Lion, on the other hand, are 2/3s 90% of the time, and will barring wasteland or a blood moon, stay that way. Of course, they will swing for half of the lucky lynx owner, but in a deck with 20 lands, luck can change.
Now, Ape vs Lion comes down to: which dual of savanna/taiga do you want to fetch out? Savannah turns on all of your creatures (except Lavamancer), but leaves off your burn, while red turns on all of your burn (but Helix,) but leaves off Qasali, Knight, Path and sometimes Teeg. Which one of these is more important early in your meta is going to determine which of Ape vs. Lion is the better choice.
I could cut the Teegs and Library for three lynxes. Thing is I've been glad to have those cards in teh past, yet I know how explosive lynx can be which suits the prime directive.
I was thinking about building a black splash version for Bob (or just do full domain for Tribal Flames). Has anyone tried it out? How does it do against the mirror?
You'd be taking an extra damage or two from Bob every turn, supposing your opponent lets him live. And it has been brought up in this thread before, but the manabase is way to cold to wasteland, and this thread is dedicated to RGW Zoo as some other posters might tell you in harsher tones.
If wasteland didn't exist I'd say it'd be better. However, because of wasteland I think that it becomes more difficult to remain consistent. You're already pushed a lot of directions to for colors, so adding another color makes it even harder. It's not an exact replacement, but a couple sylvan libraries can perform a very similar role to confidant should be looking for a draw ability.
Oh yeah, after playing two tournaments with Lynxes over Lions, I am totally sold on them now. Same maindeck as posted above, different sideboard. I did terrible, breaking even both days when I should have been in contention had it not been for ignorance to the format (not knowing lots of matchups)
Should lynx still be run, considering he's much less useful in the mirror? 1 jitte counter kills it, and it's terrible on defense. Sure he can be explosive, but I think that you add more inconsistency to the deck, and become weaker in the mirror match.
I was quite happy with the results. I look at it this way, Lynx lets you rip a land and be a hero. It has more synergy to exploit from the fetchlands (like Goyf, kotr, Lavamancer, nacatls to a degree) If you're on the draw game 2/3 you side them out obv.
I would argue that if anything, lion and ape are next to useless in the mirror. They trade with nothing on the opponent's board. If the opponent has even a single Nacatl out, suddenly lions and apes have to sit back, unable to attack well or even trade on defense short of a pre-charged jitte or an exalted trigger. As odd as it sounds, a 2/3 for 1 in the mirror might as well often be a 0/1, for all that it will be doing. Sure, add in a lavamancer and you can force some trades, but on the all literally everything you're facing in the mirror is bigger than ape/lion, and they become, at best, a wall to hold off the opponent's apes or single-landfall lynxes.Quote:
Should lynx still be run, considering he's much less useful in the mirror?
That said, I believe that in a wide meta where zoo isn't dominant, ape/lion are probably better, and certainly more stable. There certainly is a tradeoff between speed and stability and lynx is far to the fast/unstable side. However, I may be wrong, but I don't think this will be that metagame. Zoo, I imagine, will be everywhere at Columbus, as will be decks like Enchantress and Lands that predate on us. For once I disagree with Bailey that it's time for us to slow down zoo and make it more stable again; the decks that hate us will have us locked out by turn 4 if we don't have them nearly dead by then. Even without the tyrant of ANT everywhere, we still need speed to out race their lockdowns, or die 17 turns later to a Mishra's factory. I think the deck that prevails will be slightly slower than the balls-to-the wall Elias zoo types (maybe helix back in instead of fireblast, and the addition of Jitte with or without SFM), but speed is still essential in the non-mirror matches, and I think lynx plays an important role there.
All of that said, though, both are pretty bad against the mirror, and they'd be among the first things I'd side out.
tl;dr version: Lynx is actually better in the mirror, and zoo shouldn't slow down too much, or risk being unable to race the hate decks.
I will say this to all Zoo players, get ready to lose to Enchantress. My friend has been playing the deck for years and I always moan and groan when I have to play against him in tournament play because that deck rapes Zoo so hard.
The only way I've discovered to beat it, is hope he get SUPER unlucky with Enchantress effects, or to just draw triples of really good cards like Pridemage. From what he tells me, the Steppe Lynx/burn decks do better, but not by much. Unless they get the god draws then they're just as screwed as the kind of list I play.
And I don't think Lands is that bad of a matchup. The only reason I lost to it at the 5k is because that blue lands guy lucksacked in topdeck mode into Intuition. As you all know, PoP is INSANE. I also have boarded a couple of Blood Moons for decks like that on certain occasions.
M11 wants to have a word with you >Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Back to Nature - 1g
Instant
Destroy all enchantments.
I haven't seen you post in forever my friend! I kinda like another card better. I hate playing into their Replenish though. I like that card that bounces all Enchantments to their owners library.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
I know ... haven't played in a SuperGames tournament in a while but I'll be back soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Tranquil domain already exists. Sure, it doesn't hit auras, but I think you'd be okay ;) Plus, it's a replenish that you're scared of.
I went to Knightware tournament yesterday in LA and got 3 place over 51 people. My record was 5-2-1
Rd 1: UW Tempo 2-0
Rd 2: Ant 2-1 Funny how I got lucky and won this game because my opponent forgot to fill out his decklist and got an automatic game 1 loss.
Rd 3: Next I went up against my best friend and he was using Merfolk and I lost 0-2... but I didn't feel bad because he kept on winning and got first place. Also he beat 2 more other Zoo deck 2-0.
Rd 4: Zoo 2-0 was an easy win beat him with Steppe Lynx and kotr.
Rd 5: Merfolk 2-0
Rd 6: Evagreen draw
Rd 7: UB Faerie 2-0
Rd 8: Reanimator 1-2
The top 8 consisted of me as Zoo, Zoo, UB Faerie, Evagreen, Ant, Reanimator, Merfolk and Dredge.
In the end I won 2x Tropical Island and was very happy^^. Oh and also I still think Steppe Lynx is better then Kird ape or Lion Loam. Even thought Steppe Lynx can be inconsistent I think Zoo need an explosive start to stay at the top. Also now that Ant and Reanimator is not that great of a deck anymore without MT I think people going to put in more hate against aggro decks.