[DTB] Blade Control

Sounds good, but i think you don't need Geist in the Board anymore :P
Maybe change them for Meddling Mages
I dont understand the Darkblast, do you think its a good choice atm? against Death/Taxes it might be good. Otherwise i think you can swap the Perish for another Supreme Verdict to fight other Nemesiis.
Therapy is not good enough without Souls, so another TS might be right

So we are on this:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
3 True-Name Nemesis
Creatures [8]

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Planeswalkers [3]

1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate

Spells [27]
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

SB:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
3 Meddling Mage
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Zealous Persecution


I'm just brainstorming, what do you think? :)

Sideboard is whatever you want it to be for your expected meta. But the maindeck/manabase is pretty much set, imo. You'll see lists tinker with the numbers on certain cards slightly, but the GP Denver list is still the core to work from.

You might want something that doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Bolt and that TNN can't block profitably. Something like Cockatrice perhaps?

Right now I'm at 2 Snapcaster and 2 Lingering Souls and 3 mass removal spells in 2 Verdict and 1 EE. I've moved away from Inquisition to 3 TS only and 2 Counterspell to supplement the Forces in my disruption package.

So you've cutted the Spell Pierces?
the Idea of Souls sounds great because they fight Lilianas which can be an issue. otherwise they are bonkers against Miracles. I like the Idea.

Can you share your list plz? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HSCK

You might want something that doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Bolt and that TNN can't block profitably. Something like Cockatrice perhaps?

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My eyes are watery from all the smoke from your burning strawman.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blablub

So you've cutted the Spell Pierces?
the Idea of Souls sounds great because they fight Lilianas which can be an issue. otherwise they are bonkers against Miracles. I like the Idea.

Can you share your list plz? :)

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Sure:

Esper Stoneblade

Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Spells:
1 Ponder
1 Vindicate
2 Counterspell
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures:
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Lands:
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
1 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Humility
1 Thoughtseize
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
3 Meddling Mage

@blabub

Darkblast is personal preference choice, imo. It's great versus Lingering Souls, Elves (a major meta player right now), decent versus Delver (hits a 1/1 Delver and you can still kill a flipped Delver with the upkeep -> Darkblast + Dredge -> Darkblast play), great versus the aforementioned Death and Taxes, and good-ish versus lots of random tier 2 stuff like Goblins, Maverick, etc. Admittedly, it's better if you're running Lingering Souls, but even without, it seems worth it (to me) to keep it in.

Also, Verdict seems better than Perish in a TNN meta, although Perish has it's place versus Elves, Jund, RUG Delver (assuming no TNN out of the SB) and Maverick. Although let's be real, Maverick isn't a deck anymore.

I think Josh Ravitz' build from SCG Invitational looks quite strong and eschews TNN because the card is just a fad.

For reference:

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Lingering Souls
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Meddling Mage
1 Notion Thief
1 Humility
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

Notion Thief, god that card is a blowout when it hits. I like him as a 1-of in every deck that can support him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Notion Thief, god that card is a blowout when it hits. I like him as a 1-of in every deck that can support him.

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yeah i am always suprised he doesn't see more play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

[...] and eschews TNN because the card is just a fad.

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Probably sigging that. I mean, the only way this card is a fad is if it gets banned, and then that's a forced fad. He has changed things.

I've been able to appreciate Clique in the board as a 3-of, so that when I face decks that are good against TNN, I just board swap. It's so clean. I normally drop my 4th TNN for another sb card if I'm running the full set, but the idea that I still have a 3/1 evasive beater for an equip target that is still relevant against my matchup, honestly feels like home. Honestly, it makes that Karakas feel better too.

-ABC

I mean sure, it's a bigger Invisible Stalker, but it has no disruption against the decks that you want to disrupt - namely combo and control mirrors. It's not vulnerable to most removal. Neat. we aren't playing Standard format where you need to run 8-14 removals.

I call it a fad because we're likely to fade back to Clique/Lingering Souls within months.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

My eyes are watery from all the smoke from your burning strawman.

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Aren't those good for this super warped TNN meta?

I don't think TNN is a fad, I think it'll vary between 2-3 as the meta flips and flops, but definitely here to stay.

Listen kiddo, if you read what I actually posted instead of what you think I posted, this wouldn't even be a thing. Why are you still on this? Did I hurt your feelings? Do you want a hug from Liliana?

So I would like a small discussion on why exactly we don't play or even consider delver. He is just the tits. Turn one delver into turn 3 tnn is so strong with any kind of Counterspell backup it's hard for me to imagine not wanting it. Is there something I am just missing? I can't imagine what it might be.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

So I would like a small discussion on why exactly we don't play or even consider delver. He is just the tits. Turn one delver into turn 3 tnn is so strong with any kind of Counterspell backup it's hard for me to imagine not wanting it. Is there something I am just missing? I can't imagine what it might be.

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19-20 instant/sorc and delver is not a good combo. Also what do you take out

I'm not saying it's a card-for-card fix, I understand it would take some tinkering. I suppose it's most feasible in a UW build, so for the discussions sake let's use that.

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This is why:

+ 4delver
+ 25 spells
+ 2/3 Jace
+ 3/4 TNN
+ 4 Stoneforge Mystic
+ 2 equipment
+ >= 22 lands

Can you get down to 60 cards with this setup?

So what do you want to cut? Jace? Since you're cutting jace you might as well be playing less lands. Now you've cut less lands but you may not have as good as a long game so you add daze and wasteland to slow down your opponent. Look you're playing UW Tempo, which I believe there's an infamous thread for that.

Where does the magical number 25 come from? I don't disagree that is solid, I just would like something more solid than someone's word on the matter. Doesn't the amount of cantrips you run make a difference, or is 25 including a certain number of cantrips already? Any actual math to back it up?

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Pretty much what luckme said.

There's nothing wrong with going down that road but be aware you don't want to be playing a strictly worse version of 2 decks.

25 is still too less. I've done it with 25 and its too inconsistent and that's with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder.

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Okay. I guess I will continue my search for a deck that will play both. Don't suggest UWr delver. I don't know why, but I find it a bore.

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Just going off of playtesting and general consensus. I guess it would be a gaussian distribution without replacement. Would love to see a distribution myself. Say confidence interval 90%? Someone make this happen.

I think if you want delver, you could build something like a deathblade tempo list closer to bug delver.

Preliminary sketch like:

4x Drs
4x Delver
4x Sfm
2x Tnn

1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Daze
3x Fow
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Stp
2x Orzhov Charm (this is actually a really good card imo)

4x Strand
4x Delta
1x Marsh Flats
4x Underground
2x Scrubland
1x Tundra
4x Wasteland

You are wasting your time trying to cram Delver into this deck. Playing Delver basically means a mandatory full set of Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, and Daze. In addition you want 3-4 Spell Pierce to protect it. Without Bolt, you need another way to find reach. Hymns and Swords to Plowshares won't help you there.

On the delver blade subject, I have been toying with this idea for a while now.

10 creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets

27 Instants/Sorceries
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
1 Vindicate
2 Lingering Souls
2 Preordain
4 Thoughtseize

1 Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

19 lands
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta


This version of Esper plays a lot like the normal version, but it has the added benefit of having '' oups I win draws '' because of the delver.

Most players associate Delver with Wasteland, spell pierce and daze. I think that delver can be put in a more mid rangy and less tempo oriented deck.

In the new TNN era of legacy, Zealous Persecution has been amazing at clearing the board and is synergistic with Lingering Souls.

As someone just making the plunge into stoneblade (playing just UW for now), why isn't Bitterblossom played in the Esper lists? It seems like Batterskull and Jitte can mitigate the loss of life and an endless stream of flying tokens sounds like exactly what this deck would want.

Mostly because it does nothing for the first two turns that it's in play. For that kind of effect, Lingerig Souls is generally more impactful.

Here's the list I'm testing currently. How has death and taxes been for you guys?

4 sfm
2 scm
4 tnn
1 tombstalker

3 Jtms
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 jitte
1SoFI
1BSkull

2 Ponder
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 pierce
1 c-spell
3 TSeize
1 IoK
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme verdict
4 StP

1 Swamp
1 plains
2 island
1 karakas
1 Scrubland
2 USea
3 Tundra
2 marsh flats
3 Delta
4 Strand


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Here's the list I'm testing currently. How has death and taxes been for you guys?

4 sfm
2 scm
4 tnn
1 tombstalker

3 Jtms
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 jitte
1SoFI
1BSkull

2 Ponder
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 pierce
1 c-spell
3 TSeize
1 IoK
1 Vindicate
1 Supreme verdict
4 StP

1 Swamp
1 plains
2 island
1 karakas
1 Scrubland
2 USea
3 Tundra
2 marsh flats
3 Delta
4 Strand


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I'm 100% sure those Ponders would be better off as land. Though your curve appears to be extremely effing high even for 22 land I daresay. Testing against mana denial strategies should demonstrate that quickly - especially VS. DnT btw.
I find it very useful to look at virtual CMCs of CIP spells and cards requiring an activation cost to actually do something (i.e. equipment). Virtual CMCs of such spells are slightly higher to be more meaningful when it comes to building your mana base. Looky here:

SFM --> CMC3
SCM --> CMC3
Tombstalker --> CMC3
Jitte --> CMC3
SoFI --> CMC4
BSkull --> CMC3 (I find myself hardcasting it more often than not)

Now with that in mind trying to make your deck run on 20 land looks quite adventurous, right? ..especially considering you boast 5 actual CMC4 spells on top of that. I actually got the impression your virtual average CMC is pretty identical to Miracle Control's - but keep in mind that those guys run 4 Tops as consistent mana fixers.

So yeah, -2 Ponder +2 Island seems legit to me.
What do you think?

Edit: forgot to mention your deck looks very cool otherwise!

This is the list I'm working on right now:

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures: 12
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers: 5
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Spells: 20
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Swan Song
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Celestial Flare
1 Humility
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant

It's straight UW for consistency in the mana base and the ability to run factories (also because I don't have deltas or Seas...). Not sure if 23 is the right number of lands, might be one too many but my curve is pretty high with running 5 planeswalkers. Only 3 TNN so I can run the 2 Cliques, this is more controlling than Esper so I like having the Cliques in there. Also being a slower control list I like having the hard counters as opposed to the taxing counters. Spell Snare besides just being good incidentally hits some of the main cards used to hate against TNN (Zealous Persucution and Golgari Charm).

The 2 Elspeth are a personal choice just because I think she's very underplayed for how good she is. She's better than Jace in a losing board state and almost as much of a must answer, she also helps close out games way faster.

Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [SLAYER]chaos

This is the list I'm working on right now:

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures: 12
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers: 5
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Spells: 20
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Swan Song
1 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
1 Celestial Flare
1 Humility
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant

It's straight UW for consistency in the mana base and the ability to run factories (also because I don't have deltas or Seas...). Not sure if 23 is the right number of lands, might be one too many but my curve is pretty high with running 5 planeswalkers. Only 3 TNN so I can run the 2 Cliques, this is more controlling than Esper so I like having the Cliques in there. Also being a slower control list I like having the hard counters as opposed to the taxing counters. Spell Snare besides just being good incidentally hits some of the main cards used to hate against TNN (Zealous Persucution and Golgari Charm).

The 2 Elspeth are a personal choice just because I think she's very underplayed for how good she is. She's better than Jace in a losing board state and almost as much of a must answer, she also helps close out games way faster.

Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated!

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I've ran a similar list at a couple events. I found that only having 4 brainstorms and no ponders didn't give the deck enough dig. I've been thinking of cutting 1 Snapcaster and moving either 1 Clique or Truename from the maindeck to the board in order to accomodate 2 maindeck ponders. I honestly feel like they will make the deck run smoother, as it can be prone to bad draws.

I tried out 2 lands in place of ponders. I put in another Tundra and another Plains as a total of 4x Island is hitting the basics a little heavy and plays fairly clunky. I do like the changes, occasionally I have missed the Ponders as well, but I am running 3 Jace, so...I'm not sure where I stand right now, but I am liking my list as a whole. It's really good. I think Esper is top-notch.
I think at this point, if I were to include ponder, I'm not sure whether it would be one or two, but here are some "available" slots:

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tombstalker
1 Swords to Plowshares

Any opinions as to what ponders might replace, and how many and why? I'm playtesting this list against Death and Taxes over winter break. Nothing conclusive at this point, but I'll be testing more soon.

-ABC

Edit: Was thinking earlier at work that SDTop may be an option for the deck. Not as a 4 of, but a single, maybe two-of in the deck. Slower than top, but I think overall more fruitful. It doesn't "combo" with Snapcaster, but leaves Snapcaster to be useful elsewhere. Competes for mana, though. That's a topic to touch on, I would think. I know top has fallen out of favor in a lot of minds, but it's still a powerful card in a deck like this. 9 fetches, 4 SFM. So much shuffling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I tried out 2 lands in place of ponders. I put in another Tundra and another Plains as a total of 4x Island is hitting the basics a little heavy and plays fairly clunky. I do like the changes, occasionally I have missed the Ponders as well, but I am running 3 Jace, so...I'm not sure where I stand right now, but I am liking my list as a whole. It's really good. I think Esper is top-notch.
I think at this point, if I were to include ponder, I'm not sure whether it would be one or two, but here are some "available" slots:

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tombstalker
1 Swords to Plowshares

Any opinions as to what ponders might replace, and how many and why? I'm playtesting this list against Death and Taxes over winter break. Nothing conclusive at this point, but I'll be testing more soon.

-ABC

Edit: Was thinking earlier at work that SDTop may be an option for the deck. Not as a 4 of, but a single, maybe two-of in the deck. Slower than top, but I think overall more fruitful. Also it doesn't "combo" with Snapcaster, but leaves Snapcaster to be useful elsewhere. Competes for mana, though. That's a topic to touch on, I would think. I know top has fallen out of favor in a lot of minds, but it's still a powerful card in a deck like this. 9 fetches, 4 SFM. So much shuffling.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

.

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Those would be my candidates to cut for a Ponder:

1 Tombstalker
PROs: I do love this guy in here for his surprise effect plus as a one of you'll be able to cast him for 2 more often than not as soon as you draw him. Doesn't suffer from Golgari Charms and the likes.
CONs: BB casting cost, DRSs eating your yard and most of all: he's the only STP-worthy target and will draw them like sh**.

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
PROs: Most powerful blue Control spell next to BS, nough said.
CONs: your very high curve

1 TNN
Few lists run the full play set. I guess they don't want to completely open up themselves to the growing amount of dedicated TNN hate and actually might have a point. 3 seems like the perfect number to me atm.

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Cons: Casting cost: CMC4 and WW is kind of tough, but her +1 ability is super sexy especially in the wake of the Miracles' rise - there is NO better anti-Miracles hate imo.

@ SDT: I would definitely favor Ponder, as it provides more tempo, something your approach somewhat lacks

The reason I run 4 TNN is exactly why you say to run 3 lol. I think I will drop the stalker simply because he was an afterthought, does draw removal like the plague and requires bb, something this deck cannot appreciate. I think if I want another threat I will consider Lingering Souls or Vendilion Clique instead.

Edit: I just dropped a TNN to allow for a single clique in the main. This opened up a board slot and allows me to run another disruption spell post board. Thoughtseize probably.
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Hi guys! Long time esper player here.. I'm sharing my list for discussion ,haven't posted it here yet. I have had a lot of great results with it,but looking to tune it even more..

3underground sea
3tundra
1scrubland
4polluted delta
4flooded strand
2marsh flats
2island
1plains
1swamp
1karakas
3TNN
3snapcaster mage
4stoneforge mystic
1vendilion clique
4brainstorm
3FoW
2ponder
2spell pierce
1counterspell
4swords to plowshares
3thoughtseize
1inquisition of kozilek
1supreme verdict
1 batterskull
1umezawa's jitte
1sword of feast and famine
3jace,the mind sculptor
Sideboard:
2duress
2flusterstorm
1fow
2meddling mage
1vendilion clique
1notion thief
2perish
2zealous persecution
1supreme verdict
1vindicate.

I like maindecking sword of FxF alot.. It makes ur stoneforges live against combo g1 and u can perhaps take games with a hand like seize,sfm,fow,.. for ex. I think it's way more useful then yet another sword like fire and ice. I'm not a fan of academy ruins/ee here,I like a stable manabase with 10fetch. I'm still playing both perish(Jund ,shardless,bug,elves, )and zealous(elves,dxt,TNN decks,..) The notion thief is solid like always. The only spots I'm not sure about are vindicate and maybe one perish/zealous. Also, I maybe want to include a disenchant or manriki! I'm a huge fan of boarding the maximum vs all combo decks,so -4stp,-1verdict,-1jitte,-3tnn,+2duress,+2fluster,+1fow,+1clique ,+2meddling mage,+1notion thief mostly.
Any ideas/comments/suggestions? Thanks in advance! Greetings

Mister rancor sir, you seem like a nice enough guy. But your post is extremely difficult to read due to your (mis)use of spacing and punctuation. I suggest that you edit it to make it more readable. Otherwise it may be difficult to engage people in discussion if they simply glaze over your potentially great ideas simply because they are formatted strangely.

Edit - :highfive:

I think meddling mage may be bad here. You are in black so discard is probably better overall. They can generally get out from under a mage via abrupt decay/chain of Vapor/red blast. I may be wrong but in my experience as both a storm player and a blue player says it's bad...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I think meddling mage may be bad here. You are in black so discard is probably better overall. They can generally get out from under a mage via abrupt decay/chain of Vapor/red blast. I may be wrong but in my experience as both a storm player and a blue player says it's bad...

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I dont think more discard is better than some number of Meddling Mages. Do you really want more than 6 discard spells along Snapcaster Mage? Splitting hate is better most of the time. If you land a Mage backed up by discard or counters it should be a lot harder for the comboplayer to go off because he has to find Abrupt Decay/Bounce AND Discard/Counters. If you use only discard and counters the comboplayer only needs to find one kind of antihate. Also Meddling Mage is a clock and can be protected by equipment in narrow cases.

Splitting hate is always better. Hate that clocks is even saucier.

Well I am slightly dissatisfied with my curve. I feel like moar ponder, but I'm @ 61 cards and only a single ponder. I'm thinking of dropping the 3rd jace for ponder #2. The mana base is doing great, I'm just getting left without the flexibility I'm used to.

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