If you can't win after the DR in that situation, you are dead. You can't give your opponent a fresh 7 and seriously hope to not get blown out by Hymn, thoughtseize, counterspells or an attack.
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If you can't win after the DR in that situation, you are dead. You can't give your opponent a fresh 7 and seriously hope to not get blown out by Hymn, thoughtseize, counterspells or an attack.
Today played some games with friend and an interesting scenario came up:
He's playing UR delver, no cards in hand are known. He has 5 cards, 2 volcanic islands and steam vents on board. He has wasteland in the graveyard and he has tapped out to cast crucible of worlds. I have city of brass in play and my hand consists of these eight cards: silence, petal, petal, petal, LED, dark ritual, burning wish and infernal tutor. My opponent is at 18 and I decide to try my luck. My thought is that I'll try to play petals into the board and then try to silence him if needed. As I cast the first petal, he dazes it. I pay for it with city of brass. Petal resolves. I play another petal and he dazes it, forcing me to either let it be countered or sacrifice one petal to let another one resolve. I have an brilliant idea, I'll dark ritual with the petal on board! I break petal for B and cast dark ritual, my opponent casts force of will exiling stifle or spell snare. Either way, I now have petal, silence, LED, wish and infernal tutor in hand. No mana floating, my only land tapped and it'll get wastelanded next turn. I pass the turn - and proceed to win after few turns. But I think there was something that I could have done so much better with my 8 cards. How would you have played that situation? My plan was to play lotus petals on board and then try to silence, leaving dark ritual in reserve if needed to pay for the soft counters.
Also Lemnear, how do you do your notes? I'd like to become a better player and it would be pretty nice if I could write up all the plays so people could help me see where I could have played better. I'll need some training though since I'm an awfully slow player even without making notes. ;)
Opponent on UR delver: 18 life, 3 tapped islandmountains, crucible of world in play, wasteland in GY, 5 cards in hand (which are daze, daze, FoW, stifle/snare + X)Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
Us: city of brass in play, petal x3, LED, Dark Ritual, Wish, Tutor
it's going to be tougher to win if the opponent gets to untap 3 land, plus has wasteland every turn, so it make sense to try and do something
The opponent is tapped out, so we only have some combination of daze and FoW to worry about. At most they could cast 4 Daze, 3 Daze 1 FoW or 1 Daze 2 FoW. Hopefully something less than that.
Lotus Petals are your least valuable card so it makes sense to play them first to draw out counters (or build up mana for paying for Dazes if they don't use counters.)
I think the crucial turning point here is that you decided to use Dark Ritual before the third petal, opening yourself up to have it countered. I don't see the reason for exposing the Ritual to a counter when you still had a petal to play. Paying 1 to stop Daze on a lotus petal doesn't get you any extra mana.
How about this:
First couple of plays:
Petal - daze, 1 mana, opponent has 4 cards
Petal - daze, 1 mana, opponent has 3 cards
Let's say we play a 3rd petal here instead of opening up Dark Ritual to counter spells
Petal
You still have LED, Dark Ritual, Silence, Wish, Tutor in hand.
At this point you cast Silence (storm 6), hoping that the opponent's 3 remaining cards are not Daze + FoW
If the opponent has either Daze or FoW then you can draw it out with a Silence and then Dark Ritual, LED, IT -> Empty (or Tendrils if you have it main.)
If you have a really strong read on the opponent that they have a third Daze and no FoW, then it might be better to lead with Dark Ritual (no silence.) If the opponent Dazes, you pay. If they don't, this lets you use Wish instead of Tutor.
I'm sure the correct sequence is to play all 3 petals and just Pay for the first with CoB, let the Second get countered, play the third, Silence off one Petal (meeting FoW), DR off the other, LED, Infernal -> EtW for 22 goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
I feel you just wasted your Ritual for the lesser Petals here.
On my writeups: Normally you may use your Opponents turn to Write up what happend and you can do it with all the known shortenings like "CoB, 19, Po (DR2, BS1, BW3), ..." For Cory of Brass, Tap it for Going Down to 19 and cast Ponder Stacking Brainstorm as the Top card, above Dark Ritual and Burning Wish. This should work for most notes. I myself use a combination of this and Stenography to Take advanced notes of complex interactions even during my turns while managing my Life and mana with a sheet of paper and dices.
Hint: I recommend a 4-dice-System, one Blue, Black and red and a 4th (clear one in my case) for stormcount
Hi all,
i have to say that i'm not a storm player - to be honest, i've always tried to fight storm decks rather than embrace them, but now i think i'm changing my mind. I've been running many different fair decks lately to some discrete success, but now my meta is infested by any kind of combo deck you could immagine, and there's nothing i hate more than losing from the mono-U dumbest deck ever seen (Omnitell) and its older brother (Sneak-Show). I mean, i think even a lobotomized guy could pilot those deck to a discrete success. But they are only the top of the iceberg, since i have to face Solidarity, Elves, Dredge, ANT and Food-chain combo as well.
So i'm seeking my vengeance, and i may seek it here.
I'm looking for something fast and brutal, something that could make them weep about how perfect was their hand if they had the time to play it, and this deck looks promising. I've tested Tin Fins too, but it doesn't look really solid to me. My main concern is that TES is really hard to test it on the net, because people tend to ragequit after seeing what they're up against and i do not have a group of friends to test with. So i'd like to ask you TES-veterans how this deck performs against the combo decks reported above. Thanks in advance!
TES is a bad matchup for Omnitell from what I know. Doiscard-heavy Jund or something along those lines is apparently less than desirable, too.
I can only offer insight against ANT and several S&T archtypes. You may wanna read some of the reports in my Signature for detailed info about those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
However, I feel that the "new" Mono Blue S&T decks are so easy and resiliant that my honest advice to combo-freshmen is to either run Meddling Mage in their Blue decks (SB) or run easier combo decks than TES is. The deck is a beast which has a sheer unlimited angles of attack but that makes it insanly difficult to Pilot. If you just wanna "punish" other combo players, there are much easier options to do so
Show and Tell matchups are difficult, but with Swarm it's at least 50-50. Mono-U Omnitell should be better for you. Solidarity is going to be tough because of maindeck Flusterstorm, but they are slower than Sneak and Show, so maybe 45-55.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
I've rarely lost against Elves, Dredge, ANT, or other durdly combo decks. Those are all easily 60-40 matchups, might be better.
I play TES on cockatrice all the time and rarely have people ragequit. Many more ragequit when I played TinFins :rolleyes:
I like Elves' game vs. Storm postboard a lot nowadays. It might even be in Elves' advantage, but it's by no means free for either and G1 Elves are pretty free for TES. Just don't underestimate the little gits postboard. You'll regret it.
That really hasn't been my experience. Very few have Mindbreak Trap, so they're hoping to what, Therapy you a couple times and then Hoof you around turn 3 or 4? That's just not going to work if the TES player aggressively Silence-walks and knows how to use all the tools at his disposal. For example, a non-lethal Grapeshot to nuke the board and stave off a hoofy death has won me a couple games. Every match I've played against elves with fast combo (this or TinFins) has felt like Elves was horribly outclassed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Does paying for the lotus petal help in this case? I guess if you pass the turn and they waste your city, at least you have a petal left, but for the immediate turn, does it actually matter if you pay or don't pay?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Not for you on the bill directly, but paying for the Petal with a City of Brass sends a clear signal to the opponent and potentially provoke additional counters on lesser accelerants (which happend as it seems).Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
It's a pure mental cheat on your opponent's perception which carries the nice side effect of battling Daze/Wasteland if you have to Pass the turn without serious action, which however isn't the intention as my example showed (aka creating a lethal amount of Goblins)
Edit: in essence, you'll use the Petal, one generic mana and 1 Point of Life to cast a virtual Hymn to tourach (stripping 2 Daze here)
I strongly disagree with this statement. If you want to play TES, do it. After all, this is just a TCG and not topology; like any deck, you can play TES pretty well by relying on heuristics. And to develop these heuristics, you need to play the deck. People telling you ex ante that you are too inexperienced with the deck to even try it tend to glorify their pet deck a bit too much, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Also, the number of kill conditions is limited to the number of 3 (EtW, Tendrils, Grapeshot) and the number of storm engines to fuel these kill conditions is limited to 5 (natural, PiF, AdN, DR, IGG). Even though it's of course possible to combine multiple kill conditions or multiple storm engines in one gigantic kill shot, I wouldn't really say that this results in a sheer unlimited number of angles of attack. In addition, most hate pieces tend to affect the greater part or even all of your engines in a very similar manner, so these angles are really not that different.
@Davek
TL;DR: Please join the storm troopers. It's fun and it's definitely not rocket science. If you're willing to spend some money, check out MTGO. I've never experienced anyone ragequit and I play a lot of DDFT or TES there. It's also very rewarding to play there, since usually you're not paired with Average Joe from your LGS but some pretty high class players (not implying that I'm one of the latter).
Relying on heuristic with TES only results in a flurry of frustrating losses because you can't manouver you out of difficult situations. Players trying to Pilot the deck on such a level struggle to win without the obvious Infernal into Ad Nauseam or Wish into EtW, PiF.
TES isn't a deck to pickup the night before a tourney ... especially not if your Goal is to "punish" other combo decks.
To be fair, the OP never said he wanted to pick the deck up the night before a tourney. He asked for a "fast and brutal" combo deck that could beat the other decks in his meta. That's all.
Any deck in the MTG universe is too complex to play optimally (in a statistical, expected value maximizing kind of sense) in any match for anyone but an autistic prodigy. That means you use heuristics (only the mentioned prodigy doesn't). You're not relying on your mind to solve hypergeometric expressions in a tournament setting to calculate the exact probabilities for your or your opponent's next draws. You're relying on your experience and maybe some calculation shortcuts. Which is not bad! Even in chess you have to rely on heuristics because it's getting too complicated very quickly for our limited human brains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Of course, you still have to count mana and storm (preferably before going off). And know your interactions (retain priority and crack LED in response to this and that...). But that's easy and, as you're probably very well aware off, although one of the first but by far not one of the biggest challenges when playing TES.
I agree that the probability of doing well with a deck in a tournament is positively correlated with the length of the time span you've been playing it. Yet, I expect a dedicated person to be capable of doing already pretty well with TES after 5 (estimation method is pooma) hours of playtesting against a diverse field of decks (and reading this outstanding primer). The learning curve always becomes flatter. That's also true for TES.Quote:
TES isn't a deck to pickup the night before a tourney ... especially not if your Goal is to "punish" other combo decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogh!
Dude, Magic cards are way harder than topology. Optimal play in Magic is certainly no easier than EXPTIME, and proving theorums in Topology is merely NP-Complete :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogh!
Anyway. Davek - TES is a hard deck, but if you want to play it, then just do so! ANT might be less frustrating to start with though.
Let's say you think storm beats elves 70% of the time preboard (based on their basically no disruption and slower combo in general, might actually be low?) but postboard elves brings in 50 cards and suddenly storm loses 60% of the time. Let's ignore the possibility of a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Storm wins iff (means if and only if)
- Wins games 1 and 2
- Wins games 1 and 3
- Wins games 2 and 3
Assuming independence between games that leads to
- Storm wins games 1 and 2: .7*.4 =.28 =28% of the time
- Storm wins games 1 and 3: .7*.6*.4 =.168 =16.8% of the time
- Storm wins games 2 and 3: .3*.4*.4 =.048 =4.8% of the time
for a combined total of 49.6% of the time.
Now I don't think even remotely elves is that favored post board (even at best maybe but their combo is very diluted by sideboard material) and therefore I'm not worried about elves in the slightest. If we change the predicted matchup to 45%-55% storm to elves postboard we get an overall win percentage of 54.9% in storm's favor. You shouldn't have to worry about a matchup that you obscenely crush preboard unless their postboard puts it nearly as unfavorable for you as it was for them preboard. And nothing in the format does that 180 in preboard/postboard matchups
You can deduce another pretty good reason for playing storm from this quote. The nerd level is definitly above average compared to the population of MTG players. It's chic to be a nerd! Or so I've been told. By mom.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
A combo-oriented plan postboard with Elves vs. other fast combo decks is wrong, and will lose you games. Expect lock pieces and discard, don't expect Glimpse. There won't be any unless the pilot is bad in which case you can thank him for free win%.
The warning was more to just not underestimate Elves or think they're free postboard, little else. With smart play it's at least even, perhaps a bit better. Just remember to play smart like a TES pilot should ^^
I understand :) Just reiterating it is still in our favor and there is a reason we cut the silences/duress/empty for decay/chains/therapyQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
So that is what the primer suggests, but I've personally been very happy boarding -1 Empty, -1 IT, -1 Duress, +2 Chain of Vapor, +1 Cabal Therapy and that's it. On the draw it's a little harder to successfully Chant-walk them, but on the play it's pretty trivial. They almost never will play out the blind Therapy on turn 1 anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
This does seem like the smart plan, and the reason I fear TES (and white Doomsday) the most out of all storm decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Why wouldn't they blind therapy? Hitting LED before you play it or naming a tutor/cantrip/dark ritual seems really good. Blind game two name LED since it has the highest chance of turn 1'ing you then follow it up with a hatebear or flashback seems like a good way to disrupt storm no?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
chant walk is less good IMO since the lands you can do it off of either hurt or or get sacrificed. The plan also deals with a resolved hatebear more poorly while slowing down the available resources to cantrip with. Harder to ponder at every opportunity when you are leaving that gemstone mine up for the upkeep silence.
I am curious to hear others on the subject. How many others have done chantwalking postboard?
I don't know exactly why they don't, but Elves players generally haven't in my experience. I think they think that there's not much of a chance of us going off turn 1, and their turn 2 is much, much better if they can drop a mana dork turn 1 - it opens up Therapy, Elf, flashback Therapy, as well as GSZ for 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Compound that with the seeming inability for any non-storm player to know what to name with Therapy and I'm really not concerned with their turn 1 plays. Seriously, how many times has any opponent Therapied you on LEDs? I can count the number on one hand.
I usually run them out so they don't get the chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I have some (not super extensive, mind you) experience playing Bryant's TES list and Grim ANT before going back to Elves again, so that may have something to do with my comfort in the match. *shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
T1 dork vs. T1 Therapy is probably the most difficult decision to make for Elves vs. Storm, especially vs. TES.
Thank you all guys for your insights! I like the idea of becoming a "stormtrooper" :)
I'll definitely test TES again on cockatrice, maybe i've been unlucky with my opponents lately..
@PhazonMuant: if it's not a problem for you, i think i'll look for you on cockatrice to watch you piloting the deck
@Lemnear: your reports are really full of hints, you did a great job (getting the girl's phone number too!) :)
I'm writing soon again, probably reporting some bad beatings i'm gonna take and asking for help
Yeah for sure. I always make my rooms open to spectators, hands viewable to all, and spectators can comment so it's more interactive. My nick on cockadicks is Phazonmutant...because I apparently couldn't spell when I created my account on the source. Not sure how much Legacy I'm going to be playing in the next couple days, need to figure out this stupid fucking T2 thing for the SCG Invitational.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
Ill give you a hot trading post list to playQuote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
About time to participate in a tourney again after being 2 months away for work :/
Good! I'm really digging your reportsQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Thx for enjoying, but I doubt, these reports wield any kind of value anymore, once a Player reached your level of experience, Matt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Those reports once aimed for newer storm pilots.
I fear i've lost touch to the metagame during my 2 month stay in France and Italy.
As long as I make mistakes, there is still more to learn. It's always good to see someone else's perspective, like with regards to the chantwalking against elves postboardQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
From personal experience, chantwalk has been my number one worst feeling as the Elves player. Modern Elves list don't run ESG, so any possibility of turn 1 hate piece is out of possibility. This means on the draw, TES can just regain tempo by chanting. So brutal!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
I'm sitting here wondering why you're talking about Modern Elves....Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Maybe modern as in contemporary, not the format?Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Yes, but that is not how I read it the first time around!Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
Small report for a mediocre performance. I tried keeping notes so hopefully this will be helpful to you guys and hopefully you can point out some places for improvement in my play.
Round 1 - bye
1-0
Round 2 - Deadguy Red
G1 - He mulligans to 6 on the play. I keep RoF x2, LP x2, IT x2, Delta - a turn one Empty for 16 tokens in hand. He leads with Inquisition of Kozilek and fortunately doesn't realize the correct play of taking Rite of Flame or even Lotus Petal. He instead takes IT, I draw another LP, and Empty for 14 on turn 1 after confirming the Empty math out loud (14 goblins is exactly enough to beat a turn 2 Stoneforge into Batterskull). He scoops.
-1 Empty, -1 IT, -4 Silence, +2 CoV, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Cabal Therapy
G2 - I mulligan into a hand with a couple lands and a Ponder, but no tutor. Ponder bricks and his t2 Canonist goes all the way after many Wastelands and no Chains.
G3 - I keep RoF x2, LP, Ponder, BS, Delta, Gemstone Mine. Mine into Ponder, stacking (top to bottom) IT, BW, Therapy with the thought that if he Duresses, I'd rather have the Wish, but if he doesn't, I can use the IT as a +1 R, +2 Storm by finding RoF. He Wastes after seeing that I tanked for a minute on the Ponder, but LP gives me the extra IMS to Empty for 14. Scoop.
2-0
Round 3 - Hoogland Loam
We draw into top8 (small tournament, bad weather) but play it out for practice.
G1 - He mulliganned and I kept a hand with a Silence and a couple cantrips, lands, and tutors with the thought that I can potentially Chant-walk him until I find the needed mana. Fortunately he didn't have the turn 1 Chalice, just a Dryad Arbor. GP reveals he kept PFire x2, Grove, Chalice, Savannah. I drop Mine and Silence. He plays a Savannah. Next turn I drop Sea, Ponder, and keep Silence, Ponder, IT, then Silence him again. He drops Grove. I drop a City of Brass and Ponder, find a Duress, and take his Chalice, then Wish for DimRet to attempt to go off next turn. He Zeniths into Teeg, then I can't find an answer before he beats down and Fires me.
-4 Silence, -1 Empty, -1 IT, +2 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Cabal Therapy
G2 - I make it rain with the natural Ad Nauseam turn 1. I pick up piles of cards off the top and throw them onto the field, 5 at a time. NBD.
G3 - I mulligan a hand of AD x2, IT x2, BW, Delta, Ponder and keep GP, Therapy, BW, Ponder, LP, DR (yolo). He doesn't have a turn 1 play, and I obviously rip the Sea. GP draws Chrome Mox, Therapy takes Thalia, revealing Loam, Decay, Burning Wish, Savannah, Taiga. He EOT fetches for Badlands, then got pretty upset when he drew a Teeg. Pass. At this point my memory gets hazy, but I do remember imprinting BW on Mox, Wishing for a DimRet in the attempt to go off with the DR, LP x2, and 2 lands in play next turn. He rips a Mox Diamond for the black source to be able to Burning Wish for Duress, which leaves me with pretty much nothing until I die. The other line was to wait until the next turn to play around Duress, but I honestly forgot he had it as a BW target.
2-0-1 (but really 2-1)
Quarters - UR Delver
G1 - On the play, I Duress and see Ponder, BS, Bolt, Bolt, Goblin Guide, Snapcaster Mage, Scalding Tarn, taking Ponder. My hand has a Silence and a as protection, as well as a couple lands, a tutor, and some cantrips. A couple of turns and surprising 2 Wastes later, I'm finally ready to attempt to go off into a weak Empty. I lead on Dark Rit, and his Brainstorm hits Daze and Force. Daze I can pay for, but he Forces my DR and kills me 2 turns later.
-1 IT, +1 Therapy
G2 - I probed, seeing no protection, then Pondered to set up for next turn. He dropped a Delver. I probed again to double-check, saw he drew a Chain Lightning (to go with the 2 Bolts he had in hand), then fetched and Emptied for 16. He natural-flipped, and yeah. You know how this math works. I get exactsied with him at 3.
It's always embarrassing to lose to UR Delver. Typically they just don't have a fast enough clock or enough protection plus they usually don't have mana denial. Turns out that his weird inclusion of Wasteland worked really well for him g1, then he had a very fast kill g2.
Yeah that guy playing UR Delver does have somewhat of an odd build. I guess Waste makes daze a bit better and live more into the late game. But it is a nonbo with Goblin Guide.