[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venomous72

This will be my starting 60 when Push releases I believe:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland


I think Push will give this deck what it needs to be the best Delver deck in the format, and I think BUG will become the best 3 color combination as well. Fatal Push gives us that one mana answer against so many threats that are annoying. I know when I play against Jund last week and lost 2-0, Push would have been fantastic. Bob, Goyf, Shaman, etc.

I do think completely cutting Goyf is correct. Once Push is seeing play in every black deck, True Name, Gurmag, and probably Tombstalker will all see their stock rise substantially.

---

Hi,

I think your list is far from optimal (Especially the manabase). With 4 TNN MD which cost UU and so many BB spells at the same time in the deck you will have huge problems to cast your stuff in time especially with the 2 Bayou in the manabase. Pressuring yourself to constantly be able to produce BB & UU with 2 Bayou and 2 Tropical is not needed. Sure 1 Sea 1 Trop 1 Bayou gets there but 1 Wasteland destroys you then, not where I want to be...

I think there are 2 ways:
1. Cut the BB spells from the MD and play just Sea + Trop along with 4 TNN (3/3 split or 3/2/1 for example).
2. Cut the TNN´s and add Tarmogoyf to relieve your MB.

A mixture of both is unconsistent and risky, believe me, I played the tapout Version over 2 years. I know that Reid´s list with 4 TNN inspire some people to go more into that route but his manabase is completly different, +4 mana dudes +1 land and no bb spells in the deck, completely different story.

If you really want to cut Goyf entirely because of the fatal push hype I highly recommend you Reid´s TNN BUG or 4c Delver Friedman list which I also play.

I also dont think Goyf is really great atm and will not be that great when FP gets released but he´s still the best thread vs unfair decks or burn and so on...TNN is great where Goyf sucks but Goyf is great where TNN sucks, means the choices are very meta dependant.

As always, i totally agree Manipulato's post.
TNN is a great card, not broken, who require a totally different manabase.
We can see the Duke's manabase, who support non BB spells.
By the way..i don't know if the next way for TA is a tapout or a pure Tempo style.
I suppose that we are many player with Fatal Push fear...but Tarmo is simply the best green creature and is a must in a tempo shell.
For now I try a Delver/Tarmo/Stifle/Pierce/Push/Abrupt/Seize version, with a very Clear Tempo plan: this maybe is not the better version (no Hymn, no Liliana) but the Push make our Tempo version better than older.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hrothgar

As always, i totally agree Manipulato's post.
TNN is a great card, not broken, who require a totally different manabase.
We can see the Duke's manabase, who support non BB spells.
By the way..i don't know if the next way for TA is a tapout or a pure Tempo style.
I suppose that we are many player with Fatal Push fear...but Tarmo is simply the best green creature and is a must in a tempo shell.
For now I try a Delver/Tarmo/Stifle/Pierce/Push/Abrupt/Seize version, with a very Clear Tempo plan: this maybe is not the better version (no Hymn, no Liliana) but the Push make our Tempo version better than older.

---

Sorry man but if you wanna play Thoughtseize and Stifle in the same Maindeck, you dont understand what a Tempodeck wants to do.

lol obv Seize is not a maindeck card, i have report this card to specify that i don't play Hymn in my 75, but i bring the tempo plan in g2, without tapping in my turn.
By the way maybe my post is not clear and i agree with you.

Hi to all!
this is my list, i prepare that for the eternal week end in Paris.

MAIN:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Balefull Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SIDE:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
1 Dread of night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
1 Leovold
1 Vendilion
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember

Im not secure that its the best list.
i suppose that in Paris tournament i will found more delver deck so... a lot of push(i think...), than is better 4 tarmogoyf or another creature(TNN, gurmag)??
What do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hrothgar

lol obv Seize is not a maindeck card, i have report this card to specify that i don't play Hymn in my 75, but i bring the tempo plan in g2, without tapping in my turn.
By the way maybe my post is not clear and i agree with you.

---

i dont wanna offend you, sorry for that. But i wouldn't play discard, even in the SB unless i predict that combo is the most played deck.
By the Way i wanna play the same deck as you when Push comes out. Basicly Canadian Thresh with Black instead of Red.

The problem is Goyf. Now all the Midrangedecks can play Push too, so they trade tempo positive with you. I'm not sure if the DRS, Goyf, Delver Suite is the correct creature-base anymore. If i think about Shardless who kill your Goyf with a 1 Mana-Spell, or Grixis Delver who kills ur Goyf for 1 Mana and gets a token, it makes me sad.

While it looks like that Eldrazi is on a decline, maybe its time bring back Mongooses :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blablub

i dont wanna offend you, sorry for that. But i wouldn't play discard, even in the SB unless i predict that combo is the most played deck.
By the Way i wanna play the same deck as you when Push comes out. Basicly Canadian Thresh with Black instead of Red.

The problem is Goyf. Now all the Midrangedecks can play Push too, so they trade tempo positive with you. I'm not sure if the DRS, Goyf, Delver Suite is the correct creature-base anymore. If i think about Shardless who kill your Goyf with a 1 Mana-Spell, or Grixis Delver who kills ur Goyf for 1 Mana and gets a token, it makes me sad.

While it looks like that Eldrazi is on a decline, maybe its time bring back Mongooses :)

---

Agree, I have the same doubts about Goyf for the exact same reason...It´s not just Push, after Reid´s win more TNN´s will be played (TNN also got more popular before his win) which are troublesome for Goyf, DnT is also a Tier 1 deck atm where Goyf sucks too...But time will show, lets wait and see how the meta evolves, maybe we all overhype push a bit...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

Hi to all!
this is my list, i prepare that for the eternal week end in Paris.

MAIN:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Balefull Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SIDE:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
1 Dread of night
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push
1 Leovold
1 Vendilion
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember

Im not secure that its the best list.
i suppose that in Paris tournament i will found more delver deck so... a lot of push(i think...), than is better 4 tarmogoyf or another creature(TNN, gurmag)??
What do you think?

---

Hi,
well mixing together two completely different archetypes of BUG Delver is not good if you ask me (Hymn+Stifle MD). Both cards have a totaly different goal in a game and are very antisynergistic! You should think about the gameplan you want to have. Hymn belongs in the tapout version aka Team America, Stifle belongs in a straight tempo shell called BUG Delver.
Your manabase is also problematic, 18 lands is fine if you dont play Lili and Hymn but in a more cc2/cc3 heavy list I would go up to 19/20 lands. The 2 Bayou in your list makes the 18 lands also way worse because 1 Wasteland can cripple your manabase, sure you have stifle but not a open mana to cast it especially not off Bayou.

If you have both cards in hand (Hymn+Stifle) you always have trouble what to play, tapout for hymn means stifle is dead, keeping one mana open for a potential stifle makes hymn way slower and weak, see the problem?

Also if your manadenial plan with Stifle, Wasteland, Daze was succesfull and you screwed down your oponent to 1 land for example why discarding him away 2 random cards he cant cast anyways, it makes no sense, pierce would be way better here for instance.

I know that These kind of lists exist and they´re still good in a combo heaby meta but it´s far away from optimal and I personally never ever would play such a list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manipulato

Hi,
well mixing together two completely different archetypes of BUG Delver is not good if you ask me (Hymn+Stifle MD). Both cards have a totaly different goal in a game and are very antisynergistic! You should think about the gameplan you want to have. Hymn belongs in the tapout version aka Team America, Stifle belongs in a straight tempo shell called BUG Delver.
Your manabase is also problematic, 18 lands is fine if you dont play Lili and Hymn but in a more cc2/cc3 heavy list I would go up to 19/20 lands. The 2 Bayou in your list makes the 18 lands also way worse because 1 Wasteland can cripple your manabase, sure you have stifle but not a open mana to cast it especially not off Bayou.

If you have both cards in hand (Hymn+Stifle) you always have trouble what to play, tapout for hymn means stifle is dead, keeping one mana open for a potential stifle makes hymn way slower and weak, see the problem?

Also if your manadenial plan with Stifle, Wasteland, Daze was succesfull and you screwed down your oponent to 1 land for example why discarding him away 2 random cards he cant cast anyways, it makes no sense, pierce would be way better here for instance.

I know that These kind of lists exist and they´re still good in a combo heaby meta but it´s far away from optimal and I personally never ever would play such a list.

---

so... if i would take off the 3 hymn what can i put in Main? and if i cut 4 stifle off ?

Thanks for Helping!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

so... if i would take off the 3 hymn what can i put in Main? and if i cut 4 stifle off ?

Thanks for Helping!

---

I'd recommend the lists from malimujo online, he wins a lot with it and it's no doubt what Brad Nelson and Michael Majors took inspiration from for GP Louisville.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/541842

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

so... if i would take off the 3 hymn what can i put in Main? and if i cut 4 stifle off ?

Thanks for Helping!

---

If you cut the Hymn you can add Spell Pierce for example, I would cut the Strixes then aswell and would replace them with 2 Gurmag Angler probably to push the tempo play even more, the 2 Bayous should get the cut then too, replacing them with fetches. If you cut Stifle you can just play the traditional Team America list, such lists can be found in the Top 8 of GP Louisville piloted by Michael Majors for instance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manipulato

If you cut the Hymn you can add Spell Pierce for example, I would cut the Strixes then aswell and would replace them with 2 Gurmag Angler probably to push the tempo play even more, the 2 Bayous should get the cut then too, replacing them with fetches. If you cut Stifle you can just play the traditional Team America list, such lists can be found in the Top 8 of GP Louisville piloted by Michael Majors for instance.

---

OK, you convinced me.
today i have a FNM and i will play TEAM AMERICA, the list of Michael Majors...
will let you know how it goes.
Thanks!!!

"I want to play Delver but I do not know what version... :-("

I don't what would you play instead of Goyf if he becomes so bad due to Fatal Push. For example TNN is good against fair decks but too slow against combo to make a cut imo (at least as a 4 of) unless your metagame is combo free.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

OK, you convinced me.
today i have a FNM and i will play TEAM AMERICA, the list of Michael Majors...
will let you know how it goes.
Thanks!!!

"I want to play Delver but I do not know what version... :-("

---

The best advice for a new player to Delver is just pick a version and learn it. They all have distinct advantages and disadvantages and a lot of your early success is going to come from intuitively understanding what the deck is doing. RUG is the most straightforward in terms of game plan (other than Ur, which is much more of an aggro deck than a tempo or aggro-control deck): you keep the game from developing and kill your opponent before they can implement their game plan. Grixis tries to achieve something similar, but relies on achieving a difficult-to-answer board position but is better if the opponent gets going because it's threats are more flexible and require a wider range of answers and Grixis plays a wider range of interactive cards itself. 4c and BUG are thr most capable of grinding, though each approaches that term differently. 4c seeks to trade cards basically forever, like a midrange deck would, but relies on Snapcaster, Leovold, and TNN to present a wide range of threats that all fruatrate opponents' ability to answer them while having piles and piles of interaction. BUG (the Hymn version) plays (sort of) like backwards RUG. You want to spend the early game consuming all of your opponent's resources: Hymn them, Daze aggressively, Decay their threats, etc. Only once your opponent is constrained on mana or topdecking do you pivot and try to become truly aggressive in most matchups. You're seldom forced to race (though you usually can if you want to) because BUG pivots quite well between being the beatdown and the control. This doesn't mean that you don't operate as the beatdown when the opportunity presents itself early: if you have turn 1 Delver into Wasteland+ Daze or Deathrite into Hymn+Delver, then you absolutely take those lines, you just aren't forced into a plan that narrow, and you generally aren't losing tons of ground to an opponent who removes a threat or two. Once their resources are exhausted you'll be able to eventually stick something that they simply can't answer and probably beat them with it.

As for Push making Tarmogoyf worse: I guess? Sort of? It makes creatures in general worse, except Eldrazi (which it seems everyone has correctly identified aren't actually that good), TNN, and Delve creatures. We get to run the most powerful Delve creature already, and otherwise it hits the other Delver decks in a similar way. I'd be more interested in adding Leovold against removal-heavy decks than I would be in cutting Goyfs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayiluss

I don't what would you play instead of Goyf if he becomes so bad due to Fatal Push. For example TNN is good against fair decks but too slow against combo to make a cut imo (at least as a 4 of) unless your metagame is combo free.

---

It dies to removal is not a reason to say that card is no good

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KobeBryan

It dies to removal is not a reason to say that card is no good

---

This is exactly what I want to say. There were some people who were suggesting cutting Goyf (this is the feeling I got at least) but I still think it's one of the best creatures and I wouldn't cut it. It has great ration between cost and power and thus provides fast clock which is especially good against combo decks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayiluss

This is exactly what I want to say. There were some people who were suggesting cutting Goyf (this is the feeling I got at least) but I still think it's one of the best creatures and I wouldn't cut it. It has great ration between cost and power and thus provides fast clock which is especially good against combo decks.

---

The "It dies to removal " argument is not the main thing I dont like about goyf atm because this argument alone is quite dumb and true for 80-90% of all creatures in legacy, I agree with you to 100%. Goyf is of course much better vs unfair decks than TNN or Angler, no doubt about it but my problem with him atm is that he even struggles in combat vs creature based decks like DnT, Elves or Maverick for example just because of his lack of abilities like flying, unblockable, protection or whatever.

Mother of Runes, Mirran Crusader, Thalia + Karakas, RIP, Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor, Wirewood Symbiote + any dude, Deathrite Shaman + any untap dude, Scavenging Ooze, TNN, Anglers in the delver mirror, Knights, Smasher without a artifact in the GY all beat Tarmogoyf in the ass, even YP token or Lingering Souls can chump him long enough to win ...
I was very unhappy with him outside of combo MU's lately. Things like Fatal Push, Swords, Dismember & AD are just the cherry on the cake for me.

One good point in the Top 32 lists from the gp is that 2 Liliana MD + 2 Dead Weight SB can grow the Tarmogoyf to a 5/6 - 6/7 so he can eat oposing Smashers & Anglers.

I think goyf is quite a meta choice atm. In a combo heavy meta he's the best possible choice but in a more fair meta with lots of Miracles, DnT, Elves whatever TNN is the way to go right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manipulato

I think goyf is quite a meta choice atm. In a combo heavy meta he's the best possible choice but in a more fair meta with lots of Miracles, DnT, Elves whatever TNN is the way to go right now.

---

I think a 1-of TNN is fine now, but 1-2 Leovold is more where I want to be with 3 CMC creatures in the general meta. Do you really want to take the time to Jitte up TNN against Elves and D&T? 4c is better set up to play that game because it has more spot removal, but getting to TNN mana seems too slow for BUG against Elves and would require dropping our potent BB spells against D&T, which is the one matchup where the stress of hitting UUBB is at its greatest. In every other fair matchup I'd rather have Tarmogoyf than TNN. Maybe Fatal Push opens up UB Delver as a viable alternative to BUG or Grixis, but then we're talking about a totally different deck.

Well, i agree with you guys about the fear of Fatal on Tarmo, by the way i suppose that we need to wait for the meta evolution of the next 3/4 weeks to take new stuff about the evolution.
Obv the Push is strong and Tarmo suffer it.

For now i continue to test the Malimujo list and i have a question for the Team America community: have you bring into the 15's 1/2 Jace the Mind Sculptor? You have good experience with Jace into TA?
I have test for many times my 19's lands list but now, with this list who brings 20 lands, Jace is a good threat.
Suggestion?

:smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I'd recommend the lists from malimujo online, he wins a lot with it and it's no doubt what Brad Nelson and Michael Majors took inspiration from for GP Louisville.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/541842

---

FNM Legacy, 12 Players.

T1: Eldrazi, I win easy, but i know that the mach up is not easy, i G1 and G2 i started very fast with delver and tourach with the protection of daze and force.

T2: Show and tell, I win, in G1 i have started with shaman and he dont found combo so i found tourach and i play delver and i win. In G2 i started land shaman, he do land ponder so i do land shaman, and he.play ancientTomb and cast blood moon i have 2 shaman and 2 lad in graveyard i dont found creature so... i attack with shamans each turn, i draw only fetch and he loose because dont found the combo.

T3: D&T, 1 to 1, i win the first easy with delver and 2 of my decay do good its job on his tapped moms. the second he win because have the best stat of D&T, the 3° i side in more cards, spot removal and big removal i cut off my counter because i want to play the match with more removal, he is at 7 and i am at 18 and.... the time is finish.

T3: D&T, I win this match is very long but i win 2 to 1.

I finish the FMN in second position for rating. I very happy for the deck i like it! :-) and i have see that this deck in late game its very hard to win versus all deck, what you could be done to improve??

i think i take this for eternal week end in paris... with the knowledge that I will find many more Delver deck and many Fatal push :-(

See you!
Nicodemo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

I finish the FMN in second position for rating. I very happy for the deck i like it! :-) and i have see that this deck in late game its very hard to win versus all deck, what you could be done to improve??

---

Nice results!

That is just the nature of decks playing things like Hymn to Tourach and Daze, they're super powerful early game but very weak late. You could play things like Jace, the mind Sculptor or Umezawa's Jitte for permanents with late game power. Jace is quite good from the sideboard.

This is the reason of my previous post.
I think that for now the only threat in late game is Jace.
I suppose this is the reason for the add into Malimujo's list of the 2x.
The nature of the deck give it a good early game, with greave control by Deathrite who give us a way to finish with a sort of direct damage inda face.
In this scenario, the only mid/late card is Jace, by the way our goal is to not go in the late imho.

Hi everyone,

Newbie question, please help. What are the pros/cons of this deck (the Stifle tempo version, not tapout Hymn) compared to RUG? Is RUG faster and BUG more resilient? Does RUG fold harder to graveyard hate? Does BUG have a significantly better Miracles matchup because of Decay?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havrekjex

Hi everyone,

Newbie question, please help. What are the pros/cons of this deck (the Stifle tempo version, not tapout Hymn) compared to RUG? Is RUG faster and BUG more resilient? Does RUG fold harder to graveyard hate? Does BUG have a significantly better Miracles matchup because of Decay?

---

RUG is a much better Stifle deck due to speed and efficiency, but it fell out of favour recently due to Stifle and Mongoose being very poor vs Eldrazi. Most BUG players also moved from Stifle to Hymn because of this. Both decks are pretty weak to GY hate like RiP as there's goyf in each, and the Mongoose / Shaman are embarrassing with it in play so that's not a huge factor in choosing either.

Eldrazi is on a bit of a downswing at the moment, both in paper and online, so Stifle could be a fine choice again. Hymn is also pretty well positioned at the moment, being good vs other BUG decks, Miracles, Sneak and Show etc. And like you say, being BUG with Decay let's you fight Miracles much easier.

What the "Team America" comunity think about this deck list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14466&d=286650&f=LE...

Is there someone have tested it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

What the "Team America" comunity think about this deck list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14466&d=286650&f=LE...

Is there someone have tested it?

---

Scroll back a page or so. It's been discussed quite thoroughly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

What the "Team America" comunity think about this deck list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14466&d=286650&f=LE...

Is there someone have tested it?

---

Reid Duke has tried it out a bit too ;)

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...in-louisville/

Are any of you guys planning on adding Fatal Push to the mainboard this weekend? I was thinking of adding two in the mainboard as I think it will help quite a bit in the death and taxes matchup and Jund/Grindy stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Venomous72

Are any of you guys planning on adding Fatal Push to the mainboard this weekend? I was thinking of adding two in the mainboard as I think it will help quite a bit in the death and taxes matchup and Jund/Grindy stuff.

---

Obv Fatal Push is a forced add for Team America right now.
This is the time to test the new card.
I've add 2x Push in my list And I suppose that every Team America player make the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hrothgar

I've add 2x Push in my list And I suppose that every Team America player make the same.

---

What can we remove for two copies of push? (now i play the list of malimujo: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14482&d=286785&f=LE)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nikedemos

What can we remove for two copies of push? (now i play the list of malimujo: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14482&d=286785&f=LE)

---

Your options:
- Dismember
- Liliana
- Fetch land

I'd cut one Lily and the Dismember, but many would probably advise to cut down to 19 land.

I remove 1 Abrupt Decay (the 4th is put into sideboard now) and 1 Dismember, but now i try to add 1 Leovold and 1 Nemesis to add threats at cc3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hrothgar

I remove 1 Abrupt Decay (the 4th is put into sideboard now) and 1 Dismember, but now i try to add 1 Leovold and 1 Nemesis to add threats at cc3.

---

Can you post your deck list? :smile: i'm very interested in having 1 leovold in main.... because i think that I will find more delver deck and more decks that draw, in EternalWeekEnd in Paris in 1 April.

After looking around a bit, I think this is a list I will try. This is very similar to Friedmans "True Name Delver" list that he posted to Youtube a month ago that he went 5-0 with. I basically took out the Bolts for Fatal Push and then I am running 20 lands as opposed to his 19.


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland


Sideboard is still in the works but I know it will start with 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Surgical Extraction. Probably a Golgari Charm and a Deluge as well.

So what's the best plan against Turbo Depths? Or Hex depths or whatever.

I got turn 2 Marit Laged two games in a row. Matchup seems like about the worst I have played with this deck. Game 2 I brought in 3x Diabolic Edicts, 3x Surgicals, and a Pithing Needle.

Hei People

I always really liked BUG Delver/BUG Controll and after i saw the new Fatal Push, i know Bug getting a nice new Push!
Specially BUGish controll decks getting better now:) It's probably a 3-4off in a BUG Delver or BUG Controll Shell.
The First Deck i always want to beat is Miracle because normally i play Miracle by myself.
With BUG you can do this! Delver/Daze/Hymn is always pretty strong. I tried something different.
If we take all DTB how much impact could Fatal Push have on them? Clearly against Miracle not a lot but against every other Deck that plays creatures.
But if Bug Decks get more played, Miracle will have a harder time.(Depends on the skill of course)

With this list you don't have the Pressure like Delver/Daze/hymn but you have a lot better Midrange Game. Specially when the meta change to a Fatal Push Meta.
Cards Like TS and Snap are pretty nice against Miracle and a lot other decks. Specially TS into Snap into TS. I play 4 Fatal Push to handle every other Creature Decks like other Delver decks.
Sometimes you can just handel a Though-Knot Seer. Probably Best Card in this Shell and still underrated is True-Name Nemesis. He's always good except Combo.
The 4 Ponder/4BS Package of course for more Constants. Life from the Loam is a really underrated Card in my opinion in a Bug Shell. Right Now in the Meta it's pretty good.
Fixing Mana, Wasteland lock against Delver, Eldrazi or lands, BS/Ponder/Jace Tricks. Lili is nice with loam and also the experimental Collective Brutality (Also a underrated Card).

Brutality is right now my 3-4 TS. If you have Useless Cards in Hand you can't use in a situation you can just discard them and use 2 Mods of Brutality. I know it's a 2 for 2 but if it's resolve it will probably have impact.
Alot i can just take a shaman and a Cantrip. Against infect it seems slow but if he don't counter it, you take a agent or a elf and a Pump Spell. If he play the Pump spell you can still Crap a other one:)
If you just 1 Mode it's still a Removal or a Discard:)

Against Combo G1 seems not that great. It really depends on the Combo Deck. Don't forget with TS and Snap you can slow them down. Or even win.
But like i said this Deck have a Main Deck to beat every other Deck. After Boarding you have a good Combo Match up.

Here is my List:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis (Pretty Strong against Miracle and Creature Decks specially with jitte after boarding)
SB: 1 Pithing Needle (Basically against 70% of Legacy decks)
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction (B/R Reanimator, Storm or even as 1-2 off against Miracle)
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte (Creature Decks)
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker (I like him you can just him through Blood Moon and it can shut down Vial, LED or Sneak attack for example)
SB: 1 Sylvan Library (against Mirror or Miracle)
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse (Probably Fair decks)
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap (Storm or B/R Reanimator)
SB: 2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (I really tried him main but i always like True-Name Nemesis more, but he's probably a very strong Sideboard card)
SB: 1 Painful Truths (against Controll Decks, I'm not sure about this Card)

Greets

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pdingo

*long post about a slow BUG deck without Delver

---

There are threads for controllish Team America and the new Noble/mana dork BUG deck.
Perhaps you can move your post there. Here, people discuss a much faster version of BUG.

I know mate..I already postet(Bug Controll Treath) it there i just want to share my idea...

But i mean i see some list here with snapcaster and true name. The Classic BUG Delver list get more and more to a control Deck so i think it's allright if i post this here^^

With Fatal Push legal, I managed to win a local 6 round tournament yesterday.

I played a modified Friedman list without red and Push/Dismember instead of the Bolts:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Darkblast


I'm still unsure about the Bayou. During testing, I played a 3rd Trop instead but had some situations where I missed a Bayou to fetch for, especially when it came to casting an early Tombstalker. The Bayou is awful in the opening hand though.

Overall, the deck feels pretty good.

*
My matchups were:

Grixis Delver (2:1)

G1: I managed to stick a T1 DRS on the play and went from there. He never got into the game.

G2: I don't know why, but sometimes I still keep 1-landers on the draw in the Delver mirror. I got punished accordingly and got wasted into oblivion.

G3: He didn't have an early threat and I said land-go on my first four turns. Then I forced through Tombstalker and went to town.

SB: -4 Delver, -2 Thoughtseize, +2 Edict, +2 Darkblast, +1 Liliana, +1 Jitte


Death & Taxes (2:0)

Both games, I had plenty of removal and he didn't untap with anything scary while Delver/TNN killed him.

SB: -4 FoW, -4 Daze, +1 Needle, +2 Darblast, +1 Jitte, +2 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Edict


Sneak & Show (2:1)

G1: I didn't find enough disruption and he resolved S&T.

G2: After trading counterspells, he resolved S&T into Griselbrand while on 9 life. I had an Edict, he drew 7, didn't find the FoW and died.

G3: I had the nut draw of T1 go with Spell Pierce up, T2 Thoughtseize his S&T, play Delver, Surgical his S&T (taking another one out of his hand) and T3 or 4 Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack. Not much he could do.

SB: -3 Push, -1 Dismember, -3 TNN, -2 Tombstalker, -3 Decay, + all the combo hate, + Needle, + Edicts.


4c Delver (0:2)

G1: Threw away that one. I knew he was on some 4c Delver build. My opener (otp) was Usea, Bayou, 2x Thoughtseize, Daze, Brainstorm, Wasteland. I had the greedy line of Usea -> Thougthseize to keep Daze up but die to a Wasteland, or Bayou -> Thougthseize and keep the Usea safe. I opened up with Usea and took a DRS from his hand. He had the Wasteland and I didn't find another blue source until it was too late to recover.

G2: I got blown out by double Stifle.

-4 Delver, +2 Edict, +1 Liliana, +1 Jitte (if I knew he was on Stifle, I also would have brought in Spell Pierce)

*
ANT (2:0)

G1: I managed to Thoughtseize his Tendrils and remove it with a DRS. Empty the Warrens wasn't fast enough.

G2: He kept a Hand with Empty the Warrens but bricked pretty hard on his draws and could only make 8 Goblins. He lost the race.

SB: Like against Sneak & Show, but keeping in the Decays against Swarm and Carpet.

*
Mogg Catcher Stompy (2:1)

G1: I kept T1 Delver with double FoW backup otp. He played a T2 Magus of the Moon through Cavern of Souls, but the two FoW were enough to ride the Delver to victory.

G2: I countered the first Blood Moon and discarded his second, but he found a Chalice while I had a hand full of CMC 1.

G3: He mulliganed to 5 and didn't find enough lands. I beat him down with double TNN while keeping Spell Pierce and Decay up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baum

With Fatal Push legal, I managed to win a local 6 round tournament yesterday.

I played a modified Friedman list without red and Push/Dismember instead of the Bolts:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Darkblast

---

I fell in love. As a 4c Delver player I think, I'll give a try with this list.

What do you think about
- Gurmag Angler vs Tombstalker?
The double black mana is relevant I think, when you have to cast True-Name Nemesis with UU.
Without Tombstalker, you don't need bayou I think.

- Hymn vs Thoughtseize?
If it is possible to avoid mana problem with UU vs BB.
I think it may interesting to play hymn. The card is too good against so many decks.
What do you thing about this inclusion, because it will be really hard to fit the card in the curve.

- Including Leovold in Sideboard? (maybe in may but I'm not sure about this)
There is a hype for sure, but he might be insanely good in some meta.
If I put it in the mean, I think I'll put away 1 Tombstalker.
In the sideboard, it would be Liliana, but I dislike this. (Want to keep Lili in the 75)