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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Coming weekend i'm bringing the next 76 to a tournament:
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
After 2 weeks of tweaking this is what i am feeling most confidant with. 2 major considerations: the SFM package in favor of more of basicly everything (and additional Rhino's). I think that SFM adds some amount of pressure on the early/mid-game. Plus that both Batterskull and Jitte can take over games. Rhino is nice and all, but still i find it is lacking a form of control (or flexibility) and at times it is to 'dumb'. Second it the addition of Taiga and 3 Slaughter Games. The more i think of it, the more i like it and now it is time to actually try it in the field. Decks where i would bring it in do not run Wasteland so that's a big plus (i look at you Miracles/SneakShow/Storm/HighTide). Minor point of attention, i still haven't tried Painful Truths, but my gut feeling tells me that SDT is basicly doing the same. How lucky are you when you find more then one useful card in the top 3 cards anyway. So picking the single best of three each turn seems better then just draw 3 for once.
Thoughts?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Thoughts?
SFM package + Meren is asking for playing a Dryad somewhere.
As you are playing a karakas, include a Knight instead of Courser. Doubling up your chances against huge demon G1 is far superior to playing another grindy beast in a deck already designed to grind.
Path to exile, really?
Come on guys, 1 CMC removal are generally for 1 CMC creature.
Hitting Delver / Tarmo will happen but I cannot see giving some life to an opponent being a major issue, here.
Unless you are telling me you play Nic Fit to race your opponent...Hmpf.
I get to see the explorer has died at least once, and my opponent has no more basics to fetch.
But what if you open a hand with PTE and no explorer and your midrange opponent played a T1 DRS/MoR...?
Well, go give a clear advantage at the very stage where Nic Fit shines above all deck: the early game !
Let's face it, the drawback of such situation outweights heavily the fun factor of a late drawn PTE.
And I'm not mentioning the case where you save your butt by swording your own creature.
(And please don't bring "pathing your own creature" to the table)
No offense intended, but if you want to jam PTE, let's talk about Zoo/Big Zoo instead and I have a pretty brew to share (or a more Midrangy deck such as ROCK).
The rest is cool. You should have fun.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I strongly recommend replacing one stoneforge with a sofi and playing the arbor.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Arbor is useful, for sure. I'd definitely run it. As for Path, it's better than you think, and it's more relevant the more you are in on the Rhino plan.
-Matt
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Arbor is useful, for sure. I'd definitely run it. As for Path, it's better than you think, and it's more relevant the more you are in on the Rhino plan.
-Matt
I agree with Matt. Path makes goyfs disappear into thin air. As for other things, yes a basic is the replacement but often times that land wont brake the game hard enough like negating 2 rhino triggers.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
SFM package + Meren is asking for playing a Dryad somewhere.
As you are playing a karakas, include a Knight instead of Courser. Doubling up your chances against huge demon G1 is far superior to playing another grindy beast in a deck already designed to grind.
Path to exile, really?
The rest is cool. You should have fun.
Arbor + KotR seem a real solid consideration. It provides a solid angle over Courser indeed. Plus Arbor is free to keep flipping onto the board with Meren (and saccing it to KotR).
PtE flips Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Blightsteel Colossus, etc like hamburgers. For me THAT is the reason not to grab Punishing Fire.dec instead. White offers a great splash package, but the reason i am picking Junk is purely a meta call, where i feel that white has the best (less worst) MU vs MUD/Lands/Elves/Storm while still playing NicFit. PtE is a better call vs Lands and MUD. As for the other arguments, both teams are true. It is very situational to say StP is better then PtE or the other way around and we'd never gonna agree which beats which. The only deck i'd really hate to play PtE would be Miracles.
SoFaI is a good one. The only real critisism i would have is: space. The single most difficult thing in constructing a NicFit deck is fitting everything you want into it and having a balanced out spread of nr's...
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Arbor does a lot of work. It turns your GSZ's into Llanowar Elves, should you need it T1, it can be fetched to chump something for a turn and you can fetch it EoT as an instant platform for equipment.
I wouldn't be too bothered with the utility it has with Meren though. That's mostly just icing on the cake. Though, in my opinion, Dryad Arbor just screams for Diabolic Intent. But I have an incredible weak spot for that card.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Though, in my opinion, Dryad Arbor just screams for Diabolic Intent. But I have an incredible weak spot for that card.
Originally i planned to run a larger and different set of library manipulation. Intent being one of them. The card is great, but the consensus was that SFM required 5 slots and the current removal package is the bare minimum imho.
Your pointers on Arbor are solid, baring your experience with it in Elves. The thing i am conserned is where to put the Arbor? Replace the 3rd Forest? Or replace the SG pavkage (taiga)..?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Originally i planned to run a larger and different set of library manipulation. Intent being one of them. The card is great, but the consensus was that SFM required 5 slots and the current removal package is the bare minimum imho.
Your pointers on Arbor are solid, baring your experience with it in Elves. The thing i am conserned is where to put the Arbor? Replace the 3rd Forest? Or replace the SG pavkage (taiga)..?
Also a great chunk of experience in Timmy Nic Fit :wink:. It shone most there, to be honest.
Well, I've never been to big on 4 mana answers to combo.dec, so I'm biased. You could try swapping those with 2 Mindbreak Traps (again, I'm coming from a list where fetch, Arbor, Diabolic Intent for Mindbreak Trap actually was a thing. I'm silly like that.) and another Golgari Charm.
On the other hand, if you don't expect to need more then 6 (basic) lands through the course of a game, you could always swap the Forest for an Arbor. You know your list better then I do, so trust your own judgment :smile:.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I truly hate dryad arbor. He is THE destroyer of opening hands. And then he goes of to die to some removal (which is one of the few upsides to him: bating removal) and ultimately cripple your game plan. Also he forces me into bad or uneasy decisions with deed (i want my deeds to be as clean as possible). But that's just like my opinion.
Kotr is just another beater which could (theoretically) fetch you after one turn a answer to f/e a grizzlebrand. But isn't it too slow in most cases? Maybe if you put him on the board with show and tell. Also we do run very few utility lands and are generally more midrange focused while i feel like kotr is more of an aggro creature. Considering knight's utility aspect doesn't really work all too well for us and his spot as a beater is filled with better options in nicfit while his aggro aspect doesn't really go all too well with our gameplan I wouldn't put him into my 75. I would like to hear strong arguments or "package ideas" for knight because I like really like him and i would love to play him in my deck.
My 2c on pte:
I put two exile effects in my mainboard mainly because of dark depths combos and other fatties and my first choice was obviously stp and then tried out pte. I quickly learned that most of the times i didn't mind my opponent fetching a basic as much as him getting up to 20 life while my win condition is beatdown/drain. Also D&t f.e. uses stp as a spot removal for small creatures to starve out the opponent so life is not the issue there.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dadadot
I truly hate dryad arbor. He is THE destroyer of opening hands. And then he goes of to die to some removal (which is one of the few upsides to him: bating removal) and ultimately cripple your game plan. Also he forces me into bad or uneasy decisions with deed (i want my deeds to be as clean as possible). But that's just like my opinion.
You're doing it wrong, lol. You shouldn't give a shit about Arbor when blowing up a Deed. Or not fetch Arbor until after you blow up deed.
Also, baiting removal equals crippling your game plan..?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
No, I didn't mean that.
More like, you got an arbor+fetch start and the rest of the hand is reasonable. You play arbor t1 to be able to play sth t3 and your opponent wastes arbor. Maybe it's wrong to keep the hand in the first place but sometimes you are forced to do this after f.e. taking a mulligan.
A turn 1 gsz into arbor can be nice, but at best this is a turn 2 cmc4 (with phyrexian tower) or cmc3 in most cases which isn't all that great compared to the power of a gsz>cmc0.
And i feel like in a format where we are at best tier2 (this may be wrong) you can't afford to hinder yourself with low payoff plays.
Also deed along cabal therapy are the cards which make the deck legacy viable in the first place so they should be as strong as possible. maybe i will learn in time to take the right mulligans and play around the nombos in my deck but for now i feel like leaving them out as much as possible.
Edit:
The idea to combine arbor with meren and kotr is nice but maybe just g1. I tend to board out the graveyard reliant strategies of my deck (apart from witness) for more specified answers against decks which will board graveyard hate. which makes some of their cards dead and my deck stronger. but that's just me.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dadadot
More like, you got an arbor+fetch start and the rest of the hand is reasonable. You play arbor t1 to be able to play sth t3 and your opponent wastes arbor. Maybe it's wrong to keep the hand in the first place but sometimes you are forced to do this after f.e. taking a mulligan.
That fully depends on the MU and the rest of your hand. It might be wiser to fetch first (when being on the play and facing Stifle.dec, for instance) rather than start out with Arbor. You also always have the chance of drawing into a second land on your 2nd turn (or when you're on the draw), allowing you to keep Arbor in your hand until it's less of a speedbump for you.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dadadot
I would like to hear strong arguments or "package ideas" for knight because I like really like him and i would love to play him in my deck.
Don't extract things out of their context.
Dryad Arbor
a) Dryad arbor is nonbo with Deed.
b) Having DA in your starting hand sucks.
These are 2 facts, but I would consider the following (in this very order):
- Playing dryad with SFM package is very nice. You basically transform any fetch in a potential threat at EOT (and if you succeed to equip it + attack on your turn = bingo). This is a nightmare for Control decks.
- T1 -> GSZ into arbor can be a very strong play.
- Answering any "sacrifice a creature" effect by fetching into Dryad is a blowout.
- Turning "on" a cabal therapy by fetching into dryad arbor can be a matter of life or death against combo decks
- The turn you play Meren means that if arbor is in your yard, EOT of turn, Arbor is "in play" without having the need for any experience counter.
KoTR
I am suggesting to replace Courser by KoTR.
Don't get me wrong.
Sidenote
The trend (my trend) is playing more like a midrange deck while playing with an Abzan Fit version.
I like this approach. I've been a ferocious proponent to basically lower every Nic Fit version's mana curve since ages while keeping a good chunk of what makes Nic Fit so special.
Let's face it. The fact is the archetype struggles. Period.
We (Nic Fit community and I) have made a couple of top 8 since last 2 years but nothing really outstanding.
I have been playing every version of Nic Fit to some astonished results and to some others, really poor.
So now, what can we do to push our archetype further ?
Here is a brief sum up of my achievements:
- Scapeshift: Semi final.
- Jund PF Fit: Top 8
- Rea BUG Fit: Semi Final
- Abzan Pod Fit: Won a tournament
- Walker Fit (before Mc Darby special): Top 8
- BUG Fit (control with a few PW): Top 8
So where am I ?
- I usually crush Tempo
- I lose to combo
- 50/50 against control
What am I proposing ?
- lower a bit our already very good % win rate against tempo.
- Trying to find a way to reach 50/50 against combo.
- Finding an edge to beat the 50/50 control MU.
That might be gross, but you get the idea.
How to ?
I think we are, in a wide spread fashion, getting cute.
Jamming Bomb is nice. But bombs are usually not very legacy playable.
To jam bombs, we need to ramp.
To ramp we need explorer triggers.
Etc...
Actually I think we are "weak" in the early stage of any games save the veteran + therapy start.
I want more starts that give us another way to compete with other legacy decks.
End of Sidenote
I have suggested KoTR in a previous post.
Playing a GSZ package should not prevent us from playing a cheap "beater".
Why ?
Just because in a few MU, going for big fatties does not matter, at all:
- Either because you won't have time to resolve a Titan (for example)
- Or because any cheap & strong threat can do the job quicker without asking for stars to be aligned (read 5+ mana in play...)
True fact is that we are already cutting most of our bombs G2 & G3, against some MU.
Hence, having access to a cheap beater (as a 1-of) makes a lot of sense. One that you won't cut postboard.
From my point of view the said beater must be a CMC 2 or 3 max and GSZable.
- Tarmo is certainly the best vanilla beater. But do we really have the tool to make him a 4/5 on turn 3 ?
- Strangleroot is another one with more synergy with Nic Fit's core than Tarmo. But GG is pushing hard in fair MU.
- KoTR is the last one. 3 CMC might be a lot but it has at least some synergy with some Nic Fit version and can be good when you have access to some utility lands (Phyrexian, Karakas, Stronghold, Dryad Arbor). KoTR is actually never bad in any MU and doesn't push hard your mana base. At last, KoTR dodges the blowing deed @ 2.
Looking at Bobmans' list:
- He plays Karakas. S&T/Marit is a bad MU for Nic Fit. Having KoTR + Karakas might just be enough to steal a game. In a tournament, this means a lot of things, because with your discard + KotR + Karakas + PTE/STP (in a lesser extend), you have access to 6/8 tools MD to slow down your S&T/Marit opponent. If you steal G1 because of it, you are very likely to win the whole match.
- He plays Phyrexian Tower. KoTR can fetch phyrexian tower for a very quick accel and it is another broken combo with Veteran & Meren's looping ability.
So these are the sole reasons why I am suggesting KoTR.
Cheers,
Ralf.
Edit:
I don't understand why Liliana is absent from any builds (save mines) I am looking at.
Guys, the whole meta has changed.
Looking at the "decks to beat", she is a powerhouse against 80% + of them.
My 2cents.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Nice post, very well explained and thought out. I agree with pretty much everything, especially the point of getting too cute. I'm completely guilty of it. I won't lie, I mostly play Nic Fit at my LGS just for fun with no aspirations of playing it at GPs, so jam lots of titans and 6+ cmc bombs etc.
I toyed with a junk build with SFMs, the full set of DRS and just a singleton Explorer to GSZ for (I'm sure you guys have tried this configuration too) just after Siege Rhino came out, topping out at a Sigarda. It felt quite competitive in the sense that it had a fantastic game against tempo and the equipment was a nightmare for control. Perhaps it was more akin to the rock than Nic Fit, but it's something to try again I think.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Nice post, very well explained and thought out. I agree with pretty much everything, especially the point of getting too cute. I'm completely guilty of it. I won't lie, I mostly play Nic Fit at my LGS just for fun with no aspirations of playing it at GPs, so jam lots of titans and 6+ cmc bombs etc.
Thank you, sir.
We all have started playing Nic Fit for the fun factor.
But I am belonging to the Nic Fit category that "still" brings it to huge tournaments, hoping to be blessed by the Gods.
Except for last GP in Lille where I played Imperial Taxes during the main event and a MBC brew of my own.
But I shall not repeat that mistake !
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
Don't extract things out of their context.
Dryad Arbor
a) Dryad arbor is nonbo with Deed.
b) Having DA in your starting hand sucks.
These are 2 facts, but I would consider the following (in this very order):
- Playing dryad with SFM package is very nice. You basically transform any fetch in a potential threat at EOT (and if you succeed to equip it + attack on your turn = bingo). This is a nightmare for Control decks.
- T1 -> GSZ into arbor can be a very strong play.
- Answering any "sacrifice a creature" effect by fetching into Dryad is a blowout.
- Turning "on" a cabal therapy by fetching into dryad arbor can be a matter of life or death against combo decks
- The turn you play Meren means that if arbor is in your yard, EOT of turn, Arbor is "in play" without having the need for any experience counter.
KoTR
I am suggesting to replace Courser by KoTR.
Don't get me wrong.
Sidenote
The trend (my trend) is playing more like a midrange deck while playing with an Abzan Fit version.
I like this approach. I've been a ferocious proponent to basically lower every Nic Fit version's mana curve since ages while keeping a good chunk of what makes Nic Fit so special.
Let's face it. The fact is the archetype struggles. Period.
We (Nic Fit community and I) have made a couple of top 8 since last 2 years but nothing really outstanding.
I have been playing every version of Nic Fit to some astonished results and to some others, really poor.
So now, what can we do to push our archetype further ?
Here is a brief sum up of my achievements:
- Scapeshift: Semi final.
- Jund PF Fit: Top 8
- Rea BUG Fit: Semi Final
- Abzan Pod Fit: Won a tournament
- Walker Fit (before Mc Darby special): Top 8
- BUG Fit (control with a few PW): Top 8
So where am I ?
- I usually crush Tempo
- I lose to combo
- 50/50 against control
What am I proposing ?
- lower a bit our already very good % win rate against tempo.
- Trying to find a way to reach 50/50 against combo.
- Finding an edge to beat the 50/50 control MU.
That might be gross, but you get the idea.
How to ?
I think we are, in a wide spread fashion, getting cute.
Jamming Bomb is nice. But bombs are usually not very legacy playable.
To jam bombs, we need to ramp.
To ramp we need explorer triggers.
Etc...
Actually I think we are "weak" in the early stage of any games save the veteran + therapy start.
I want more starts that give us another way to compete with other legacy decks.
End of Sidenote
I have suggested KoTR in a previous post.
Playing a GSZ package should not prevent us from playing a cheap "beater".
Why ?
Just because in a few MU, going for big fatties does not matter, at all:
- Either because you won't have time to resolve a Titan (for example)
- Or because any cheap & strong threat can do the job quicker without asking for stars to be aligned (read 5+ mana in play...)
True fact is that we are already cutting most of our bombs G2 & G3, against some MU.
Hence, having access to a cheap beater (as a 1-of) makes a lot of sense. One that you won't cut postboard.
From my point of view the said beater must be a CMC 2 or 3 max and GSZable.
- Tarmo is certainly the best vanilla beater. But do we really have the tool to make him a 4/5 on turn 3 ?
- Strangleroot is another one with more synergy with Nic Fit's core than Tarmo. But GG is pushing hard in fair MU.
- KoTR is the last one. 3 CMC might be a lot but it has at least some synergy with some Nic Fit version and can be good when you have access to some utility lands (Phyrexian, Karakas, Stronghold, Dryad Arbor). KoTR is actually never bad in any MU and doesn't push hard your mana base. At last, KoTR dodges the blowing deed @ 2.
Looking at Bobmans' list:
- He plays Karakas. S&T/Marit is a bad MU for Nic Fit. Having KoTR + Karakas might just be enough to steal a game. In a tournament, this means a lot of things, because with your discard + KotR + Karakas + PTE/STP (in a lesser extend), you have access to 6/8 tools MD to slow down your S&T/Marit opponent. If you steal G1 because of it, you are very likely to win the whole match.
- He plays Phyrexian Tower. KoTR can fetch phyrexian tower for a very quick accel and it is another broken combo with Veteran & Meren's looping ability.
So these are the sole reasons why I am suggesting KoTR.
Cheers,
Ralf.
Edit:
I don't understand why Liliana is absent from any builds (save mines) I am looking at.
Guys, the whole meta has changed.
Looking at the "decks to beat", she is a powerhouse against 80% + of them.
My 2cents.
As dissection said, not only i agree with you, but I'm also one of those who are guilty of being cute.
I think that since the printing of rhino we have a good creature that isn't cute and has a nice etb effect, while still being a solid body.
Ralf, what is you current list? I'd be curious to take a look at it, thanks
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Regarding Tarmogoyf in NicFit, i tried it as a one off in a Pfirr list and as a set in straight GB. In any case it was a horrible card. It just does not fit NicFit..
Creatures should either pack a heavy utility or some combat evasive ability (or a combination). Tarmogoyf was just tooo dumb as a beatstick and didnt make any difference in any game where it was on the board.
Now into KotR, hope i cant get my hands on some Japanese versions before Sunday. Still looking for some Japanese Meren aswell..
@Ralf; how do you feel about the Taiga Slaughter Games addition?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@ Bobmans:
1) Have a look p.129 for my current lists (Abzan Pod & non Pod).
2) Slaughter is a very powerful card. If you resolve it, you have almost won in 90 % usecases. But I have died with SLG in hands numerous times.
CMC 4 is a lot in the combo MU. I like the card, but if I had to make some statements:
- G2, you usually get to start against combo MU. SLG shines here because you are OTP. You are about 60 % to resolve it and thus to win the game.
- G3, things get dirty as resolving a SLG is more likely 40 %; I was usually dead a turn sooner...
Against Miracle, the card is fantastic; G2 & G3.
Post scriptum
Those numbers were acquired using samples of games.
You ask a friend to play Combo deck N°X.
1) Assume you lose G1
2) Play postboard, put the card (here, SLG) in your hand and draw 6.
3) Rince & repeat for OTP and OTD.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Ralf; thnx for the quick respons. I am familiar with SLG in Jund NicFit and i realise my question was not specific. How is your experience with the splash in the GBW lists. Did you get access to R quick enough? Is it really worth spashing for to be at SLG outside of dedicated Jund? Hope it makes better sense.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Ralf; thnx for the quick respons. I am familiar with SLG in Jund NicFit and i realise my question was not specific. How is your experience with the splash in the GBW lists. Did you get access to R quick enough? Is it really worth spashing for to be at SLG outside of dedicated Jund? How it makes better sense.
With your mana base (7 fetch + 3 DRS + 1 red), you should be good to go.
-> 11 colored sources are required to have 90 % odds to cast a spell at CMC 4 by T4 (assuming you land every turn).
I have not yet splashed for red in GBW. But I did it in the past with other colors.
To be perfectly honest, building a sideboard demands to:
1) Create an excel workbook
2) Create tables for each MU you are expecting (mines are based on: RUG / Elves / Sneak / Jund & Shardless / BUG Delver / Storm / Miracle / D&T / MUD / Infect / Reanimator)
3) Start filling what you side in & out with the sideboard you have imagined
4) Once it is done, you will easily see what MU has to be improved based on your initial sideboard
5) Tweak your sideboard and restart @ 3)
Well, that is how I do it.
If you want to have an idea of what a "clean" sideboard is (as I've spent quite a few hours to optimize it), please have a look at the "Black Suicide" thread in the last 3 or 4 pages.
And trust me, this is a very long task (at least enjoyable) and we can discuss any points that may raise during your homework :laugh:
Edit
Example for Abzan Pod (I have only finished Elves & Sneak)
Elves
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
-1 Dryad arbor
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Sigarda
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 SFM
-1 Fleshbag Marauder
-1 BSK
-4 Green's sun zenith
Sneak
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Liliana of The Veil
-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 SFM
-1 Jitte
-1 Orzhov Pontiff
-1 Birthing Pod
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Thx Ralf for your answer. I understand the points your are making and will consider them. I really like this form of discussion.
Question: What utility lands could possibly fit a abzan kotr build in addition to karakas and phyrexian tower. Just wondering if there is unexplored space there. I feel like adding more utility lands is "too cute" but maybe there are options.
concerning sideboard: i would love to see sideboard strategies of other nicfit players (preferably abzan) to get an understanding of the possibilities.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dadadot
Question: What utility lands could possibly fit a abzan kotr build in addition to karakas and phyrexian tower. Just wondering if there is unexplored space there. I feel like adding more utility lands is "too cute" but maybe there are options.
You can but you may end up losing your time.
We are no Maverick nor Abzan rock. We don't play 4 KoTR.
Anyway, if you really want to:
1) Make a list of utility lands that can be incorporated in Nic Fit by looking at synergies (Tabernacle + Vet for example). Dismiss all others.
2) Once you have identified the lands that could be played in a Fit version, build the mana base.
Point N°2 will give you headackes because mixing utility + basics is a nightmare.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I am strongly contemplating running rhinofit for a local this weekend, after a long hiatus from playing nicfit, here is my proposed list.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
1 deathrite shaman
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 qasali pridmage
1 baneslayer angel
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 courser of kruphix
1 vindicate
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 dryad arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 tagia
There is one open slot , where that could be diabloic intent or Sidisi, Undead Vizier. I am also strongly contemplating swapping dromoka or a Grave titan, as titan has never disappointed, and dromoka has. Also testing Meren for the first time.
Any thoughts or insights?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
moseby: i would cut a rhino and put a witness in. she is strong with meren and the etb. vindicate and maelstrom is maybe a bit much. stack up on maybe utility dudes. i like 1 gaddock main for various matchups.
personally i don't like dromoka. i would consider cutting him to smooth out the curve.
jm2c
edit: as discussed earlier a kotr could make sense.
i run 2 thoughtseize main to have a discard reliably in my starting hand and to push my cabal therapys.
i don' t like running either diabolic intent or sidisi. maybe diabolic intent is worth a spot but sidisi just ferls too much like edh. grave titan is more a flavor thing i guess. personally i run a lowe curve without 6 drops. sigarda is the 'let's get serious here' card.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
How to ?
I think we are, in a wide spread fashion, getting cute.
Jamming Bomb is nice. But bombs are usually not very legacy playable.
To jam bombs, we need to ramp.
To ramp we need explorer triggers.
Etc...
Actually I think we are "weak" in the early stage of any games save the veteran + therapy start.
I want more starts that give us another way to compete with other legacy decks.
I have much the same opinion of the deck, I really like it but all of the variants say to me that the community hasn't really figured out what works. I've only been on the deck for a year and I don't even play it every week so I haven't said anything since many of you are very good with it and have been playing for a long time, but I feel like there's something else the deck wants. Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer is really strong and it makes a semi passable deck out of just about anything. I think the thing that would take Nic Fit to the next level is figuring out what's actually good to do after that point.
On the subject of bombs, what I've noticed is that 4 mana is this decks sweet spo. An optimal opening allows for a T2 Siege Rhino either off of a GSZ or hardcast, and 4 mana is pretty much where you're looking to be on turn 2 but you usually spend some of that T2 mana on ramp which only leaves you 3 to cast something or alternatively a GSZ into a 3 drop. I think that 5 and 6 drops while fun are off plan.
My criticism of KotR (and you may be right on it regardless) is that you ideally want a land toolbox to work with it and this deck doesn't have a whole lot of room for that toolbox because of the basic land count. I do agree that Abzan is where you want to be though, Siege Rhino is a very good card. Out of the 60/61 cards I think that what's locked is
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Siege Rhino
4 Green Sun's Zenith
6 Basic lands
9 fetchlands
4 duals
3 other lands
3 Divining Top
So really the question is what's the most powerful thing you can do in the remaining 20-21 slots. Though to be honest I've wondered if GSZ is actually where the deck wants to be, it might be better as primary black, secondary green but for now I'll go with the GSZ plan above even though my next suggestions make an argument against GSZ. I do know that when I played Pod the lack of GSZ was never an issue because other tutors were available.
What about playing up the discard angle? Use all 3 of the flex land slots on Phyrexian Towers, max out on Hymn to Tourach, and maybe something like Drainpipe Vermin as a second early sac target alongside some DRS as a backup ramp card. Would that be enough disruption to fix the bad matchups? (I'm not really sure since I just switched to Junk from BUG which has totally different matchups). The heavy black of this plan would make something like Liliana which people mentioned earlier a bit easier to cast and it makes Murderous Redcap possible though GSZ misses him.
With Rhino you're splashing white which almost demands a Stoneforge package in my opinion, I get why the deck doesn't run it but at the same time I kind of feel like it's intentionally not running one of the best things to do in the format just because of GSZ. As an alternative to GSZ aside from Diabolic Intent has anyone ever considered Dark Petition if you're leaning heavily black?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Im currently running this list for the new jersey open. Any advice would be great because I just want to know what people think
3 veteran explorer
3 drs
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddoc teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
1 thrun the last troll
4 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 sigarda
4 gsz
4 cabal therapy
2 senseis top
4 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
1 painful truths
1 maelstrom pulse
1 kolaghans command
1 garruk relentless
2 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 bloodstained mire
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
1 phyrexian tower
1 volraths stronghold
1 kessig wolf run
2 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
sideboard
3 pyroblast
2 slaughter games
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
2 carpet of flowers
1 choke
1 from the ashes
1 containment priest
1 ethersworn canonist
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Im currently running this list for the new jersey open. Any advice would be great because I just want to know what people think
3 veteran explorer
3 drs
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddoc teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
1 thrun the last troll
4 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 sigarda
4 gsz
4 cabal therapy
2 senseis top
4 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
1 painful truths
1 maelstrom pulse
1 kolaghans command
1 garruk relentless
2 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 bloodstained mire
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
1 phyrexian tower
1 volraths stronghold
1 kessig wolf run
2 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
sideboard
3 pyroblast
2 slaughter games
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
2 carpet of flowers
1 choke
1 from the ashes
1 containment priest
1 ethersworn canonist
my tips:
a)In my oppinion playing 4 color with 6 basic isn't the best idea...
b) 2x tops isn't enough to control your topdeck and again 2 tops are low to help u keep your gamplay with 4 colors
c) garruk relentless - i like this guy, but why just 3x veteran if u r playing garruk? 4th veteren help you with chance to flip garruk in every matchup
d) your removal spells are expensive and often you can just remove a creature and u r done in your turn... i rather use some SwordstP or PathTE
e) You have just one 5mana bomb = sigarda... so you often tutor her with zenith, but you have gaddock in main. That can hurt
f) If you cut one Rhino u have space for Meren, u r not interested in that guy? I tested him just few times, but always he did his job
btw: from the ashes - :D that could be funny!! :), but... only matchup where its better then Tsunami is MUD and 12POST .. just depend on your meta
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
my tips:
a)In my oppinion playing 4 color with 6 basic isn't the best idea...
b) 2x tops isn't enough to control your topdeck and again 2 tops are low to help u keep your gamplay with 4 colors
c) garruk relentless - i like this guy, but why just 3x veteran if u r playing garruk? 4th veteren help you with chance to flip garruk in every matchup
d) your removal spells are expensive and often you can just remove a creature and u r done in your turn... i rather use some SwordstP or PathTE
e) You have just one 5mana bomb = sigarda... so you often tutor her with zenith, but you have gaddock in main. That can hurt
f) If you cut one Rhino u have space for Meren, u r not interested in that guy? I tested him just few times, but always he did his job
btw: from the ashes - :D that could be funny!! :), but... only matchup where its better then Tsunami is MUD and 12POST .. just depend on your meta
Ive been testing it and only running 6 basics hasnt ever been a problem for me.
I want a 3rd top but not sure what to cut
why do i need 4 veteran to flip relentless. im ususally fighting my opponents creatures
2 mana removal isnt the most expensive. what would you cut for swords or paths?
gaddoc is there for mianbioard hate vs miracles/combo/elves, which i need. but sigarda is usually enough, and comboed with thrun they put in work
Ive playtested Meren, but she either never came up or died instantly. If you swear by her and others do to i can try her.
from the ashes is there for mud/12 post/ and other super greedy deck. I only have 1 mud list in my meta, but i dont want to auto fold to it at the scg open tomorrow incase i randomly play against it
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Ive been testing it and only running 6 basics hasnt ever been a problem for me.
I want a 3rd top but not sure what to cut
why do i need 4 veteran to flip relentless. im ususally fighting my opponents creatures
2 mana removal isnt the most expensive. what would you cut for swords or paths?
gaddoc is there for mianbioard hate vs miracles/combo/elves, which i need. but sigarda is usually enough, and comboed with thrun they put in work
Ive playtested Meren, but she either never came up or died instantly. If you swear by her and others do to i can try her.
from the ashes is there for mud/12 post/ and other super greedy deck. I only have 1 mud list in my meta, but i dont want to auto fold to it at the scg open tomorrow incase i randomly play against it
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Ive been testing it and only running 6 basics hasnt ever been a problem for me.
Then u r a lucky guy... i have often problems with 3 colors... especialy when dig is banned and stifles + wastelands are back.. ( ive been seen lots of stifles last days) and hymn which can destroy your gameplan too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
why do i need 4 veteran to flip relentless. im ususally fighting my opponents creatures
ofc that your primary targets are opponents creatures, but dont forget that this guy has only 3 counters, so you cant kill fliped delver, goyf ... and you have no way to grow him up. So very often you sac your own dryad or veteran to make this guy nasty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
what would you cut for swords or paths?
paying 2 mana ... often you have 3-4 mana and if you spent 2 mana for removal u r done for this turn...
And dont forget that swords or paths have another advantage... you can kill griselbrand,Elesh.. and this sort of creatures... and delve creatures like gurmag or tasigur. Against them your deeds and decays are ... useless
Iv
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
playtested Meren, but she either never came up or died instantly. If you swear by her and others do to i can try her.
Only swords or terminus can kill your meren... and opponent has to kill him your turn or he gives you some guy from grave... and another creature can be better then 3 damage from rhino
I had fun with meren, i like this card
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
Then u r a lucky guy... i have often problems with 3 colors... especialy when dig is banned and stifles + wastelands are back.. ( ive been seen lots of stifles last days) and hymn which can destroy your gameplan too...
ofc that your primary targets are opponents creatures, but dont forget that this guy has only 3 counters, so you cant kill fliped delver, goyf ... and you have no way to grow him up. So very often you sac your own dryad or veteran to make this guy nasty
paying 2 mana ... often you have 3-4 mana and if you spent 2 mana for removal u r done for this turn...
And dont forget that swords or paths have another advantage... you can kill griselbrand,Elesh.. and this sort of creatures... and delve creatures like gurmag or tasigur. Against them your deeds and decays are ... useless
Iv
Only swords or terminus can kill your meren... and opponent has to kill him your turn or he gives you some guy from grave... and another creature can be better then 3 damage from rhino
I had fun with meren, i like this card
Our meta has delvers and wastelands, but ive always been able to play around them. the only LD i lose to is sundering titan from our MUD player
thats fair, though i usually dont keep him in vs delver, because he is too slow, but I understand your reasoning.
Thats fair. what would you cut for X amount of swords?
that is also fair. In that case I will cut 1 rhino for 1 meren
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Thats fair. what would you cut for X amount of swords?
For example iam currently playing 2decays + 2Swords, third decay in Side
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
For example iam currently playing 2decays + 2Swords, third decay in Side
I unfortunatly have 0 room in my board. I could cut it down to 2 decay 2 swords, and just run that, but i feel that decay should always be a 3 of minimum. I could probably cut garruk, as he is generally my weakest card
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
I unfortunatly have 0 room in my board. I could cut it down to 2 decay 2 swords, and just run that, but i feel that decay should always be a 3 of minimum. I could probably cut garruk, as he is generally my weakest card
not bad idea...
i like planeswalkers but... in 90% cases i wish to be some rhino rather...
the only matchup where are walkers better .. miracles
btw: what about Karakas? You have sigarda, Gaddock,you will play meren...
I will prefer Karakas over volraths stronghold ( ..you have meren) or kessig wolf
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
not bad idea...
i like planeswalkers but... in 90% cases i wish to be some rhino rather...
the only matchup where are walkers better .. miracles
btw: what about Karakas? You have sigarda, Gaddock,you will play meren...
I will prefer Karakas over volraths stronghold ( ..you have meren) or kessig wolf
I unfortunatly dont own karakas, and its a little out of my budget which is sad. I perfer running both meren and stronghold incase one dies, but yeah if i had a karakas, i would run it.
yeah i expect a lot of miracles at jersey, which is why im skeptical of swords. Its one of those damned if you do, damned if you dont cases
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
I unfortunatly dont own karakas, and its a little out of my budget which is sad. I perfer running both meren and stronghold incase one dies, but yeah if i had a karakas, i would run it.
yeah i expect a lot of miracles at jersey, which is why im skeptical of swords. Its one of those damned if you do, damned if you dont cases
Running 4 decay seems to be the right choice right now. So much delver and miracles. Also carpet in the side for the miracles matchup. Slaughter their terminus and flood the board with threats.
Max out on vet and therapy with a few Drs to help and don't mess around with swords. Just play good creatures and win.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Played my list at a small event tonight. Went up against Show and Tell (2-1), Shardless BUG (2-0), and Jund (2-0). It felt good to go 3-0 (there were 12 of us so 2 3-0's at the end, but time limited it to 3 rounds) in my first actual attempt with the deck as Junk rather than BUG. I really liked how it played out, the only thing I didn't like was that I didn't see my Deeds very often. I didn't really need them against that lineup but 2 feels like too few based on what I saw.
Meren only got to come out once but when it did it was game over. I didn't even get any counters on it but returning Siege Rhino to my hand only to sacrifice it and return it again next turn was amazing. Meren (combined with enough stuff to sacrifice) was powerful enough that with my 23 life I was able to keep both a Griselbrand and an Emrakul back on defense.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Hey all--Only own Storm in Legacy, however, I want to add a "fair" deck to my collection as well and I've been jamming Junk Fit on Cockatrice and I love it. Here's where I'm starting:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda
1 Meren
Spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Painful Truths
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent
22 Lands w/ 1 Tower/1 Volrath
Side:
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddok Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
Couple questions...I've seen some lists run 61 cards...what's the argument behind that? Is it really necessary? I'm also struggling picking between Path to Exile and Swords...right now, giving them life seems better to me.
And my SB...granted, it's meta dependent but I want game vs Combo so I've dedicated a lot to that. Is Sylvan worth the slot? Thinking I like it in the grindy match ups. Double black for Hymn may just be shit, too...haven't had a game where it's come up yet.
Any specific tips/tricks for a new player?
Blind Therapy naming Pyroblast after opponent resolved Painter and hitting 2 was the highlight of my night tonight w the deck (then proceeded to double Rhino for the win) .
I may want the 4th Rhino...
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BeardTron
Couple questions...I've seen some lists run 61 cards...what's the argument behind that? Is it really necessary? I'm also struggling picking between Path to Exile and Swords...right now, giving them life seems better to me.
The argument behind 61 is that the increased toolbox is worth more than the added inconsistency. Normally the argument for 60 cards goes something like this. Your deck has an average power level of X, and your 61st card is going to be your weakest card, therefore it's bringing down the power level of your deck. But in a deck that has a high number of tutors that's not really true because that weakest card is sometimes going to be your strongest card and you can usually find it. Because of that the 60 card logic doesn't completely hold true. As for why 61 specifically, if you add a 62nd card you're also probably adding a 63rd as a land so that 61st card only costs you 1 deck slot but the 62nd card costs you 2 deck slots which is significantly more expensive.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BeardTron
Hey all--Only own Storm in Legacy, however, I want to add a "fair" deck to my collection as well and I've been jamming Junk Fit on Cockatrice and I love it. Here's where I'm starting:
List
Couple questions...I've seen some lists run 61 cards...what's the argument behind that? Is it really necessary? I'm also struggling picking between Path to Exile and Swords...right now, giving them life seems better to me.
And my SB...granted, it's meta dependent but I want game vs Combo so I've dedicated a lot to that. Is Sylvan worth the slot? Thinking I like it in the grindy match ups. Double black for Hymn may just be shit, too...haven't had a game where it's come up yet.
Any specific tips/tricks for a new player?
Blind Therapy naming Pyroblast after opponent resolved Painter and hitting 2 was the highlight of my night tonight w the deck (then proceeded to double Rhino for the win) .
I may want the 4th Rhino...
Welcome aboard, seems that NicFit is popular.
The 61st card is not necessary, but like said; it just gives you a small bit of design space while you cant notice its presence on consistancy.
Chosing PtE or StP follows arguments that are really meta dependant and personal. In the end arguments for running either equal each other out, so ultimately there is no "best" of the two. The fact no one seems to agree of which is better confirms that.
Every NicFit SB is mostly dedicated yo beat combo, since G1 we are already strong vs fair.dec. there might be some slots dedicated to specific MU's outside of combo. Say Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, combat walkers, etc.
The only tip is: enjoy and keep playing it disregarding losing or whatever. This deck is the funnest one i've played since Survival of the Fittest (Tezzeret aswell actually).
