What do you think of Sphinx of Lost Truths, the new card from Zendikar?
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What do you think of Sphinx of Lost Truths, the new card from Zendikar?
Sphinx of Lost Truths is one mana too many for this deck; if it has cost 2UU with the kicker, then it would have made a very good finisher/CA engine.
I made a list myself and played quite a few matches via MWS. The list works out pretty nice at the moment.
4 Jace Beleren
2 Meloku
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
24 Island
SB:
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Wipe Away
I've had no real problems with any deck, save a 2LBelcher going off in my face Turn 1 with me on the draw and with no FoW in hand (oh well, which deck would win then, anyway...)
Thresh is pretty easy. B2B is a mustcounter for them, Sower and Shackles can steal their Goofys and Meloku can stall a ton and kill them.
Combo is so-so. FoW is a must on your opening hand and drawing a Vendilion Clique makes the game so much easier.
I've been considering Oona as a finisher instead of Meloku. She would compliments my alternative winning-condition, milling them with Jace instead of him creating tons of CA. She also creates tokens to block Goofys all day long and hits harder. Cons are that her ability doesn't generate as much tokens as Meloku's does and that she costs a considerable amount more.
Any comments/thoughts?
I'm trying to find a way for Jace in my list, but which turn would you tap to play Jace, considering you have it in you opening hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Turn 3? Probably i would play B2B (all matches in legacy, considering non basics) or Propaganda.
Turn 4 is a dangerous turn... but if your B2B resolves to an all tapped opponent its another history.
We need to draw cards early and you removed Impulse/Brainstorm to AV and Jace. Your first draw its only on 5th turn, considering AV on the first turn or turn 4 with a turn 3 Jace, with no B2B or propaganda.
How are you playing with him? I don't have much opportunities to test it so, please, let me know.
Thanks.
First things first, I only cast Jace when I know he will survive for at least 1 turn (read: FoW in my hand). Turn 3 is perfectly acceptable because then you start drawing cards. Don't be afraid to play him to bait your opponent into tapping out to attack through your Propaganda, causing him to cry tears of blood when you lay down a B2B next turn.
Jace is not only a simple drawengine, he's more. He is a bait, draw and a backup-wincondition. And quite some Aggroplayers like to kill him, which buys time. I know that he's a bad fog in that case, but from situation to situation, this is really good.
My drawengine has always been enough for my needs. Brainstorm is bad, because I don't play Fetches. And, honestly, Impulse creates zero card advantage. It fetches you 1 card out of 4 and if you're unlucky, it puts a card on the bottom of the library which you would have wanted now, too. I know from playing Solidarity, that Impulse is awesome because it digs quite deep and gives you what you need, but in this deck we want to actually draw cards, not dig for answers when the card we just played could have been the answer.
So to say, Impulse and Brainstorm make Fetches mandatory. And this opens me up for Stifle, which is a quite dead card against me. I think hitting your landdrops is more important for MUC than creating some cardquality.
@ Nidd
I did test your deck out, btw. I never tried out 4x Jace before (for various reasons that weren't good enough in hindsight), so I found it interesting. My testing showed Jace to be too risky and too easy to disrupt to play in general, and only worth casting when you had already stabilized the game.
As far as I know, your opponent will not have to pay any mana to attack your planeswalker. This may have been a serious difference between our perspectives on Jace.Quote:
Don't be afraid to play him to bait your opponent into tapping out to attack through your Propaganda, causing him to cry tears of blood when you lay down a B2B next turn.
If your lucky, it is putting cards you don't want on the bottom. Impulse is nice because it can be useful at any stage of the game in any blue deck. Control decks in particular have the most use for such a filter, as they usually are digging for the best answer to a particular threat.Quote:
It fetches you 1 card out of 4 and if you're unlucky, it puts a card on the bottom of the library which you would have wanted now, too.
No, it really isn't dead against you. Ancestral Visions is perfectly stifleable. Sower becomes a 2/2 flyer for 4 mana with a Stifle also. Additionally, against decks running maindeck stifle (tempo decks), they'll still find them useful in buying a single turn against Vedalken Shackles, which can be the difference in swinging for lethal or not. Jace/Meloku abilities can also be targeted, and pitching to Force is also an option.Quote:
And this opens me up for Stifle, which is a quite dead card against me.
Obviously, Stifle is not the card of choice against your MUC deck, but it isn't dead. The idea of virtual card advantage (whereby the card quality of a card is at or near zero) regarding Stifle against your deck is a falsehood.
As a sidenote to your draw engine: You removed the centerpiece of the draw engine (chaining FoFs together), and in the end, I think you've got a much less stable and even a poorer draw engine in a vacuum. You have to tap out in your mainphase too much to make it work, and you get less in return for that risk than you would if you had just stuck to FoF on end step.
If you ran Brainstorm or Impulse, I'd believe that. Right now, you have Jace and Ancestral Visions, which are generally much poorer at helping you hit your land drops.Quote:
I think hitting your landdrops is more important for MUC than creating some cardquality.
peace,
4eak
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
So what's your current win condition? Since Morph's Shroud ability isn't affected, the M10 rules didn't change my expectations on him. I'm still testing 2 Morph and 2 Teferi, but didn't find a player with a good deck, just random builds in my area... i'll try MWS soon, never used it. (Can we play togheter through IP?)
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Finnaly, 4eak, could you show us your current list? :laugh: :laugh:
See ya!
@ reale
On a regular basis I use Kadaj's permanent-based list and the draw/go list that I posted on pg. 32 in this thread. I play around with tons of variants though. My current Dedicated, blue control deck:Quote:
4eak, could you show us your current list?
23 // Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath (will go 3/3/3 split on new duals)
3 [R] Tundra
3 [u] Tropical Island
7 [MI] Island
1 [u] Plains
1 [ARE] Forest
4 // Tarmogoyf? Check.
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
13 // Board Control
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives/Nevi's Disk
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles (I actually want to put this up with Tarmogoyf, as they both play similar roles in Offense and Defense)
12 // Permission
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [6E] Counterspell
8 // Draw
4 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
4 [BD] Brainstorm
What I said before about this deck:
Quote:
I love Draw/Go, and that was the starting place for this deck. This is just MUC with StP + Goyf, filling in some of the greater weaknesses of pure MUC. I consider it neither Thresh nor Landstill. It still plays Draw/go, yet it has the option to make tempo plays when necessary...It is not itself immune to B2B, but it does break the symmetry of the card by a greater proportion than most decks. Fetches and Brainstorm give you good odds to get the basics you need.
I think Tarmogoyf is worth the splash. People complain that they 'open themselves up', but I don't think they've really tested such a minor splash.Quote:
So what's your current win condition?
Morphling, Meloku, Mishra's Factory (I've discussed this before, so you can read about it in the two MUC threads), and CtS are the other finishers I use when purely in blue.
peace,
4eak
I was wondering if Browse was a viable choice in the Legacy MUC. As lots of people choose the permanent build, playing Propaganda against creatures and Back to Basics against non-basic lands, why not playing a permanent draw engine like Browse.
In my humble opinion:
It is not Fact or Fiction, not the instant speed, it makes nothing when it comes into play. It is more expensive than Jace.
The good point is that it doesn't die to our own powder kegs, it cannot be stifled or just once and when it is in play, the MUC player can dig and "draw" as if he has a permanent impulse in the late game. I know that "if the MUC player is in the late game, he should be already winning" but does the MUC player win fastest with Browse...? Has anyone try...? ( I was a fan of counter-post and draw-go... )
And if Browse is viable, is the MONOBLUE "combo" Browse + Beacon of tomorrows + Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir a viable choice...? Let me explain how it works...
Put Browse in play to get the other elements of the "combo"
Activate it and empty your library step by step at the opponent's end of turn,
draw spells and lands,
draw the Beacon too and drop lands until 9 Islands or more...
then at opponent end of turn, play Teferi with the instant speed. Imagine it is not countered (thanks to Force of Will or Foil). The opponent won't be able to play spell.
Use your last 4 manas to activate Browse and let in your library exactly one card.
Your turn now. Draw the last card and play the beacon and repeat your turn. Teferi protects your beacon from countermagics and is the kill if you manage to give him evasion... ( Wonder ? ) or to bounce/ kill with powder kegs blockers before the "combo" appears...
Yes... it is very hard to believe... XD
(Teferi is not necessary in deep... but he is there to secure the weak "combo"... Inspiration can kill you... If your kill dies, it is draw game, etc.)
Peace and love XD ( don't be too serious for the last part... as it is my first post XD )
@4eak:
Why not just play a CB/Top style list with B2B like the Germans used to? You're 75% of the way there with the list you posted above.
I know, it is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from being Thresh w/B2B. I really tried to preserve the spirit of dedicated control without resorting to the aggro-control tactics centered around the CB/Top softlock.Quote:
Why not just play a CB/Top style list with B2B like the Germans used to?
I actually agree that CB/Top would make the deck better. I still wanted the 'feel' of MUC's more draw/go playstyle, which is quite reactive compared to Thresh, but with the fewer of the weaknesses.
I play MUC out of nostalgia and as a window into magic's game theory, but no longer do I take it to unknown metagames or think it is ever going to become better than tier 2. The once universal control nature of MUC's permission has fallen by the wayside (that doesn't mean permission isn't useful, but rather it has more limited roles/purpose). Top flight pilots are now the only people that can reasonably expect to win with MUC (the point isn't that the skill minimum for the deck is so high, but rather such pilots could probably play any of the tier 1-2 decks and place well in a tournament).
Truth be told, I think MUC will continue to fall out of favor. Take, for example, the new fetchlands which make B2B less potent. Additionally, the prevalence of disenchant effects (which answer our most important board control options) does not appear to be diminishing any time soon either.
Instead of asking myself timeless questions such as "should I splash?" and "why not play Landstill?", I am now stuck with even worse questions, "Do I really answer the metagame?" and "Can dedicated control decks be generically good choices anymore, or is it best to just play aggro-control?"
peace,
4eak
What do you guys think about Dream Halls? People drop Meloku or Call the Skybreaker or Morphling, so why not Dream Halls?
Personally I think MUC is still a top deck in Legacy. Ill post my current list but I wanted to talk about the theory first. Some of this theory I discovered on this thread. First I prefer running solid draw over any "searching" type of spell like brainstorm or ponder. This is for getting more land drops which really matters in this deck but also because we have access to free counters. Try Disrupting Shoal its AMAZING. Run with Spell Snare or another 1CC and you're able to nab early cards that really hurt later, like aether vial or goblin lackey. Your able to out-counter most any deck and counter top isn't going to resolve. So with 8 free counters like that your able to many times: Either tap out to play a permanent or tap out in resp and draw into a free counter. If you have only a draw spell in hand. Most everything in the deck is an answer so it makes sense you would want pure CA and have the ability to use flexible free counters and lose some CA but still come out even with the oppenent untill your drop a win con. But I would feel reluctant about running almost any targetable creature with a low CC. 2CC is super common and gets hit with the keg enough where I wouldn't want to run goyf. Or any permanent with a low cc. I run Pithing Needle only because it stops so many things that can hurt the deck, Aether Vial, Mishra's Factory, Sensei's Top. Usually nothing will resolve the first couple of turns and then by then you will hopefully get a draw or some more permanent answer. Keep in mind some of my choices are different beacuse of certain CC I wanted to hit with Shoal, like decks that use counterbalance take into consideration. Although most decks should always vary the costs anyways due to chalice and counterbalance. For instance running Thirst for Knowledge was partially because of the 3CC cost but also because its the cheapest instant real draw.
21 Island
1 Academy ruins
3 Morphling (makes for a nice pitch to shoal against force as well, part of the reason to run 3)
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Condescend
4 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
Fresh off the Zendikar Spoiler:
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4UU
Flying, Shroud
You may look at the top card of your library at anytime.
5/5
May be worth testing? I mean the ability probably isn't too relevant but a decent bodied flyer with shroud seems pretty strong. Thoughts?
@pingveno
My first question would be: How is this Sphinx better than Morphling?
Also, does anyone else think that the new cycle of Fetches might be the final nail in the coffin of permanent-based MUC? Back to Basics will be considerbly weaker once it becomes simple for all decks to run a basic of each color to fight through non-basic hate. I'm afraid the only viable strategy after Zendikar may be Disk-based draw-go control.
My first answer would be it isn't. But I think its been the consensus to run more than one win con to combat random stuff like extirpate, and cranial extraction. I think this sphinx is at least as good as stuff like Call to the Skybreaker. He seems almost as good as morphling for what you want a win con to do, win in 4 turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Secondly, I dont think permanent based MUC is dying, and certainly not because of fetchlands. Sure they make B2B a little worse, but shackles is still a beating, propaganda is still a beating, and certainly B2B will still be a card they have to play because they they are fetching basics. Maybe the mana denial just needs to be expanded a little bit? Who knows, but for now we will see what happens.
Because it is a 5/5 flier for the same relevant mana cost? Morphling does cost 6. It can't get as big on the back end, but it doesn't require continuous mana investment. Seems good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
maybe not better but just as good I think. costs 6 just like morphling pretty much. has shroud and flying already without pumping in extra mana. 5/5 without pumping in extra mana which is just as big too.
That's almost the same... since i usually play him only with 6 mana to shroud. Maybe it is even better, for the "always 5/5 flyer" (not 5/1 or 1/5 AND paying mana).Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
So Morph has untap ability........ we should consider that in some situations. For me, the great advantage is to have another type of creature... been immune to some removals. Split 1/2 or 2/2 (for those that runs 4) finishers maybe it's a good idea. BTW, its the first Zen's blue card I wanna make a comment.
I'm playing MUC with 18 counters and, since the release of Spell Snare, the deck played better with 4. I used to play draw-go, with 3 B2B MD.... if ZEN with those fetchs really impact something (i'm not sure it will), maybe i would move B2B to SB and replace it with Kegs (Disk?) or more counters.
What would you suggest?Quote:
Originally Posted by pingveno
See ya!
I use B2B not always intending to use it to shut down the opponent. My main reason is to fight man lands in match ups like landstill.