[Deck] Solidarity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olesch

How would you guys handle such a scenario?

---

Sculpt less. Go off more.

As soon as you can go for it protected, go off. Otherwise, you are going to run into a wall of pain, especially when your opponent can just let High Tide resolve and then use the mana to pay for all sorts of goodies on his own turn. Autumn's Veil or Mindbreak Trap are golden in this situation. Remand is a really strong way to support this strategy because you can fake out the opponent with a false attempt at going off. You lead with High Tide, as early as turn 4. If it doesn't resolve, probably the case this early in the match, then you can Remand it, draw, and then just hold your High Tide piece until you have assembled the rest.

The short answer is don't let the opponent gain the advantage. When we have access to bombs like Mindbreak Trap and Autumn's Veil which make the stack our bitch, we clearly have the advantage. If you play it right, this is a really, really tough matchup for Landstill.

Quote:

---

How do you get your FoI in your graveyard, BF yourself? how do you set that up? Or do you just cantrip them? Sounds on your description like it is an common scenario. When you go off during your turn then you totally rely on Turnabout i guess?

---

Getting FoI into your gy is easy when there is little or no pressure. Just dig/sculpt your hand and cast it. Or don't cast it; you can just discard it when your hand gets to 8.

I don't do it often, but comboing on your own turn is feasable if you have enough lands out. With 8 lands, Turnabout nets you 12 mana on one High Tide. On 4 lands, you would need to Reset twice to acheive the same effect, or Turnabout 3 times. That's why Solidarity has such a strong late game.

Quote:

---

Then I guess you need a BF in your hand when going off?

---

Ideally, yes. You can always try digging for it, but they generally try and shut down your decent draw spells, so having it in hand helps a great deal.

Quote:

---

I have a hard time seeing this scenario in front of me that you describe. Alot of pieces which needs to be in place. You actually need 2 BF if I understood everything correct? Could you please write down a play scenario in more detail? I think it is very interesting and I really want to know.

---

You are right that you need to set up properly, but you generally have the time to do so.

Depending on how things go, one Brain Freeze is enough. I have failed to deck a control player a couple of times, but had them scoop because I had put all their win conditions into the graveyard.

As for an example, what about this:

Assume that it is turn 11 (14 storm needed to deck him), and you have 8 Lands in play.

High Tide - resolves (as per initial comments)
PtD - countered
Impulse - countered
FoI - countered
Brainstorm - countered
Remand - countered
Reset - countered
Brainfreeze

Total storm 14. You win. Note that if he fails to counter any of those spells you just get to grab more stuff to cast, so the storm count is going up either way.

-Silent Requiem

Its unlikely that situation would play out like that. The opponent has no incentive to counter non-business spells. I usually fight over the resolution of either High Tide or Meditate. A good control player will aim his counters carefully, meaning that you will get something with PtD and/or Impulse. You will need much more mana to play what you draw to jack the spell count up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

The most problematic hatebear is def. ethersworn canonist the others are meh. For any hatebear other than canonist you can high tide then snap the hatebear back to hand and use it as a mana producing effect like in spring tide but not as potent since it isn't bouncing cloud of faeries however you still net +2 mana.

---

Assuming they played cannonist the turn before, cant you just High Tide during YOUR eot and then [card]Snap[/cards] during their turn?
Depending on the matchup, it doesnt really matter telegraphing to zoo that you're going to go off next turn.

Actually, I've had things play out just like that, even in tournaments.

Granted, smart people target one of your resources (mana or card draw) and focus on that, but they still up the storm count with their counters. Even a short, 7 spell exchange (three spells, three counters, followed by Brain Freeze) will largely empty their hand and half deck them. Rinse and repeat. If you have two Brain Freeze in hand, that's game right there.

In the absence of a clock, there are very few decks Solidarity can't play straight through.

-Silent Requiem

Having 2 brain freeze in hand is easy. Remand is essentially a 4 mana brain freeze when combined with another brainfreeze as many of you know the trick can easily deck your opponent which is followed up by stroke or words of wisdom or vision skeins.

On vision skeins. If you don't see progenitus in your meta run words of wisdom if you see progenitus run skeins it's that simple.

Solidarity should beat landstill if you're a skilled pilot since this deck has forever to sculpt a hand against that deck and there's always the fact that if you fizzle due to their countermagic you have a long time to rebuild due to their glacially slow clock. And like someone else said if you mill all their win cons they simply lose. The MU is heavily in solidarity's favor. And if the landstill doesn't run cunning wish the MU is even more in our favor due to them not being able to counter brainfreeze and its many copies with mindbreak trap. And also we have mindbreak trap off of cunning wish enabling us to win counter wars with ease by responding to each of their counterspells with another spell then at the end of it wishing for trap to counter all their spells they just played assuming they played 3 or more spells thus blowing them out then comboing out afterwards because all of our spells will resolve with their counterspells countered. I personally think that the control player should try to counter high tide because without high tide this deck loses its legs due to lack of mana to cast spells.

Ok, this might come a little late (and not as interesting as the 1st place report we are all waiting for ;) ), but I made 8th place with Solidarity on a tournament and I want to share the things I can remember from the tourney and my thoughts and experiences.

My list I played with can be looked up on the following link: http://trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2010-10-X15.html
The number of players and their rankings here: http://trader-online.de/turniere/Ran...10-10-R15.html

At first it is really important to say that even the number of competitors is rather small, the players are nearly all VERY experienced with their decks and the game itself. So no easy going at all for an overall more mediocre player like me. This is not an excuse but an explanation, dont get me wrong at this point.

The first round I played against a very young (I guess he was 13, maybe 14) but talented player (his decklist can be found on the link where my decklist is also posted, he made 5th). He piloted the Merfolk-deck borrowed from his older brother. Game 1 I was able to to play around 1 Force, 2 Daze and a Cursecatcher, because he didnt knew what the hell I was playing and wasted an early Daze and he had no fast clock.
I boarded in 1 Twincast and 2 Echoing Truth for an Cunning Wish, a Peek and an Cryptic Command. I really dont want to run into a Daze or Cursecatcher with both of these big spells and Echoing Truth was amazing in all games I played against Merfolk, especially against Coralhelm Commander.
Game 2 He totally blew me out with Force and 2 Spell Pierces.
Game 3 he made a big misplay, he cast an Standstill before attacking me lethal and didnt used his Cursecatcher to counter my Turnabout (targetting me). He was kinda confused that I reacted to his Standstill and could go off before it resolves (at this point I had to explain him a bit of the stack). So this game was very lucky for me, he was really confused at the time I gone off and didnt realized that his Cursecathcer was so good atm. I asked twice if he wants to do something by playing Turnabout but he did not want to. I did this because I dont wanted to steal a game that belongs to him. I remembered the times I was young playing magic and thought it would be just fair to give him a hint, even if he didnt recognized it. Normally i wouldnt do that but it felt just right at this moment to me, I cant help it.

In the 2nd round I played against his older brother who sat next to him at the games, so we both knew what we were playing. He played a fast Rock-deck. Including Tarmogoyf, Knight, Vindicate, Hymn and all that stuff.
In the first game he Mulliganed to 4. I held a hand with only 1 land but Brainstorm and Opt, that was a big mistake as I only found a second land and he Vindicated my first. I really learned from that, with a list of 18 lands its just dumb to keep that, period.
In game 2 something happened to me what I should better not tell at this point, it is just way too embarassing. I was in absolute Control he had a Goofy a Knight and a Teeg. I had 5 lands in play and had the Hand full of Goodstuff (including Echoing Truth, which I needed because I had also 2 Turnabouts) as he was attacking me. I calculated the dmg and came to the conclusion that if I bounce the Teeg the dmg wouldnt be lethal and I could go off after the combat phase responding to the Teeg he would play. Ironically this was right, but for some reason I wanted to go off after he declared his attackers. The short story is I milled him because i grapped a 2nd Brainfreeze instead of a Cunning Wish and decided to mill him right now, knowing that this wouldnt kill him immediatly and was eaten up by a hilarious big Knight. I really threw away those games and I felt really bad after that. He was joking around that something like this better happens early in the tourney and wished me luck for the next rounds. So did I, smoked a Cigarette and calmed down.

Up to round 3! I played against a pretty normal UBr Affinity version, and in both games he didnt stood a chance. In the first he was just to slow and in the 2nd game I drew both Echoing Truth and hurkylls Recall wich pulled him back too muich and I could play around 2 Pyroblasts easily. He was in a very bad mood and was complaining that its so boring playing such a deck (empyting his hand in 2 Turns is far better, right...) and that its so lame and so unfun. Whatever dude.

Round 4 I played against Big-Zoo (yes, this deck really exists and it is good, believe it. If you dont, look up his list with which he made a couple of top 8's or check a 1st place list in the developmental decks on forum). First game the disadvantages of this slower version against combo showed up and I won with being attacked for lethal on turn 5, even he had a Progenitus in his deck (which I did not knew at that point). Game 2 was a cakewalk because he mulliganed to 4 and his only creature he could resolve was a Qasali Pridemage. I gone off Turn 6, this time knowing on what I need to play around.

Round 5 I lost 2-1 to a very weird monoblack-pile.deck. He had 3 Hymn to Tourach in the first and 2 Hymns and Duress+ Smallpox in the 3rd game. At this point I really wished to have Redirect instead of Twincast... . Game 2 is not worth to mentioned he didnt had Disruption and I just won The most funniest thing was that he had to switch his sb cards out of transparent sleeves into his normal decksleeves (which looked like he was playing with them for eternities) and the other way around which was, lets say a bit weird. The guy beneath him told him that I could call a judge for slowrolling or some but i really did not want to do that. He was a very weird guy but he was very polite and friendly and I saw no reason for that and we had enough times for all 3 games.

Round 6 I played against one of the two twins which always play at this location and which are both very friendly and good players. The problem was that they both really look alike and I had scouted that one of them was playing NO Elf-Staff and thought i was facing that. My mistake, it was the other one (maybe their secret tech?) and he played Dredge with LED. I started the first in game 1 and forced his Breaktrough. He didnt found something interesting in his Deep Analysis later on and i remanded 2 Cabal Therapy's and won on turn 5. Game 2 was nearly the same but he had to mulligan down to 4 to find business and I had that force again. I could by myself time until turn 7 (no joke) finally a High Tide showed up after a Rest and Mediate.

Result: 8th place.
Nothing to be proud of but not bad at all. I think that was the place I totally deserved because of my smart action in game2 and the awkward game 5, I was kinda lucky with my opponents Mulligans. I never missed a card in these games but Redirect and would play the list i posted a few pages ago atm. Maybe cutting 1 Cryptic Command, which is only needed as a 1 of sometimes with not so much CB, and 1 Peek for 2 Peer through Depths.

Greetings

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vacrix

Its unlikely that situation would play out like that. The opponent has no incentive to counter non-business spells. I usually fight over the resolution of either High Tide or Meditate. A good control player will aim his counters carefully, meaning that you will get something with PtD and/or Impulse. You will need much more mana to play what you draw to jack the spell count up.

---

I agree on this.

When we playtested my friend let the High Tide resolve and focused on my business spell that is Meditate. Without any card drawing you simple fizzle. The counterwar was for the Meditate.

What is the meaning to resolve non business spells when you go off if you already have an sculpted hand? Well if there was any cards which gives you cardadvantage and don't just cantrip I understand.

The build I was testing out where without FoI and I had PtD instead.

A sample hand could look like this when going off:

Meditate, Reset, High Tide, Meditate, Remand, Mindbreak Trap, Remand

This hand is quite mana heavy in order to play the stack against counters.

Lets say the play would look like this:

Me: High Tide
Opponent: OK
Me: Tap in mana, Reset
Opponent: OK
Me: Meditate
Opponent: Counterspell on Meditate
Me: Remand on Meditate
Opponent: Counterspell on Meditate/Remand
Me: Meditate
Opponent: Mindbreak Trap on My spells
Me: Mindbreak Trap on Opponents Spells
Opponent: FoW
Me: Remand on Meditate
Opponent: Counterspell

(Or any other combinations of Counters from my opponent)

Thats it!

This is a very common scenario. We played ten times without SB (besides Cunning Wish) and nine out of thoose, this was the result.

If we would have BF in hand then we would have one protection card less and then the situation would look different. So I don't really know how to push this through.

We analyzed each game if there was anything else I could do or play different but no. The one thing that I could have done different was to do as Vacrix said, Go off more early and don't sculpt so much since my opponent also sculpts.

@Dark Ritual: If the opponent counters High Tide I just don't go off and I continue to sculpt or I remand it. In this case he benefits from High Tide so I dont think a good player will counter High Tide, he waits for my business spells and then starts to counter. If I go off I need to go off completely and go all in or else I will come out empty handed. It is also not that easy to say that Mindbreak Trap will resolve the issue as you can see from my sample hand and play above. In this particular deck my opponent ran 2 Cunning Wishes main going for his own SB Mindbreak Trap obviously. You also mention that wishing for a Trap during comboing, well in this case I dont think that is doable. First due to mana and second due to counters. What would it differ in the above example? You still have seven cards in hand and three of them are meant for busines and the other are for protection/business. I know how to play the deck and remanding BF etc, but this is no good in the above example.
It is also quite hard to recover from a failed comboing off, it takes at least three to four turns (to be on the safe side with hand containing High tide, Meditate,Reset). This also gives my opponent time to recover and oftenly he has a clock on the table.


Well I know this scenario might be rare but still I think it is good to discuss and get you other guys input and reflections on it.

@Olesch: Vacrix is right, you should go off more. Your deck is all cantrips, so you must be able to sculpt a good hand to go off much before your opponent find 5 (!!!) counterspells.
Landstill usually have a very slow clock, and lots of removals that are completely useless against you. So, even if you fizzle because of his counterspells, there are chances that you may rebuild in time.

In the example that you gave you don't mention how many turns you have left or how many lands you and your opponent have. But you should have considered, for example, Meditating at the opponent's end of turn without going off. In the unlikely scenario that your opponent let it resolve, you have 4 more cards to go off his next turn, so you've probably won.
If your opponent counter, you remand, he counters, you remand, he counters, you trap, he counters (this may not be the best play, depending on how many lands you have, but is just an example). Now your opponent probably very low on mana because he countered a lot of spells with no High Tide resolved, and has no more than 4 cards in hand (less if he used some FoWs). You still have Meditate, High Tide, Reset and a brand new card. Depending on the card you draw, you may try to resolve meditate now (before your opponent untaps) and combo again latter, or just try to combo again next turn. You may still lose, but I believe this would be the correct play.

Also, note that, in your example, your last remand should have targeted your Mindbreak Trap, not in your Meditate.

I periodically re-read this whole thread, and the old Solidarity thread. It's really interesting to see how certain things go in cycles.

Quote:

---

As Solidarity isn't fast enough to win before an opponent can counter, the plan is to wait long for a good hand and a lot of lands in play (6 is a good number, the more the better). Either try to play right through their counters or get a counterwar started and end it with Brain Freeze for lethal.

---

From the first post. We've just been talking about this.

Quote:

---

Back then the deck didn't play High Tide or Reset, but according to Gearhart used green for Moment's Peace, Constant Mists and Early Harvest.

---

Another quote from the opening post. We've ended up at the green splash again, and Early Harvest has been rediscussed. Some people are using Moment's Peace against aggro.

It's also worth noting that Deep6er used to run 20 land builds before he added Opt for mana fixing. There, too, some people are moving back to the 20 land builds and (in my case) dropping Opt.

-Silent Requiem

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by throst54

Assuming they played cannonist the turn before, cant you just High Tide during YOUR eot and then [card]Snap[/cards] during their turn?
Depending on the matchup, it doesnt really matter telegraphing to zoo that you're going to go off next turn.

---

Wow! Never tought on that one!
Nice! =]
@counterwar: Those things depend on the cards they use so much. Yo can't just do like Silent Requiem said on #1322, since, from those 6 counters, it could be something like, 2 Spell Snare, 1 Mana Leak, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Counterspell, 1 FoW. So everything would turn out conpletely differently. Other day I beat Landstill a game, where he had 6 counters, with only 2 of my own, just manipulating the satck, and forcing something to eventually resolve (if you don't have Brain Freeze in your hand...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by throst54

cant you just High Tide during YOUR eot

---

I don't see this working. Oracle wording of High Tide:
"Until end of turn, whenever a player taps an Island for mana, that player adds U to his or her mana pool."

As this is "until end of turn" and not "until the beginning of the next end step", casting High Tide during EOT doesn't really accomplish anything (other than more mana from islands during the current phase). Unless of course my rules knowledge isn't good enough, in which case you're right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zlatzman

I don't see this working. Oracle wording of High Tide:
"Until end of turn, whenever a player taps an Island for mana, that player adds U to his or her mana pool."

As this is "until end of turn" and not "until the beginning of the next end step", casting High Tide during EOT doesn't really accomplish anything (other than more mana from islands during the current phase). Unless of course my rules knowledge isn't good enough, in which case you're right.

---

[Wrong]"513.3. If a permanent with an ability that triggers "at the beginning of the end step" enters the battlefield during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. "

I guess this is what happens, right? (or something like that, once it is not a trigger...)[/Wrong]

EDIT!
Sorry. We cannot do that:
"514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack."

Since we cannot cast spells on the Cleanup Step, we can't "float" High Tide to the next turn...

Ok, this might be an easy one but I really do not know this and thought about it as I red Dark Rituals comment on playing spells in respopnse to your own. I red that in a primer, that you should react to your own spells when you assume your opponent holds an extirpate, how does this work? I thought that if you cast a spell, you directly give away priority and you just can cast a spell as a result of the priority the opponent gave you with casting his spell. I am really confused at this point. Because if I would be right with my understandment of the rules, that trick with extirpate wont work, but Dark Rituals "Trick" with the Mindbreak Trap would and I would definetly think of adding it to my sb (and because its just good if you can turn the game out so long till you can wish for it against Stormbasedcombodecks).
Thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher

Ok, this might be an easy one but I really do not know this and thought about it as I red Dark Rituals comment on playing spells in respopnse to your own. I red that in a primer, that you should react to your own spells when you assume your opponent holds an extirpate, how does this work? I thought that if you cast a spell, you directly give away priority and you just can cast a spell as a result of the priority the opponent gave you with casting his spell. I am really confused at this point. Because if I would be right with my understandment of the rules, that trick with extirpate wont work, but Dark Rituals "Trick" with the Mindbreak Trap would and I would definetly think of adding it to my sb (and because its just good if you can turn the game out so long till you can wish for it against Stormbasedcombodecks).
Thanks

---

Whenerver you cast a spell, or activate an abilitie, the priority goes back to you. Then you can cast another spell, without any response from your opponent. So, if you have 2 High Tides, you can: cast 1st High Tide and, while retaining priority, cast the 2nd one.
The opponent will get priority when you don't want to do anything else, before the spells resolve.

Ok, I understood that this action is possible but I still do not know why. Is this possible because we are in the opponents turn or why can I respond to my own spells on the stack (or is this always possible for a player , doesnt matter which turn?)?
I really dont know these facts about the stack but I need to, to to play more efficient with my spells and lead my opponent into traps. I have not mastered the deck yet (is this possible?) and those facts are really interesting for me. Normally I would ask a judge but my options are very limited in that direction. Thanks for answering my questions anyway in this part of the forum.
Maybe I see someone of you at GP Bochum, have a nice day folks!

If you are serious about this deck you need to understand how the stack works. There is no substitute for reading the rules, but here is an overview:

a) No player can take any action if they do not have priority.

b) At the beginning of each new phase, the active player gets priority (the player who's turn it is).

c) The player with priority can take as many actions as are allowed by the rules (such as restrictions on when you can cast sorceries, etc), HOWEVER none of those abilities will resolve if they use the stack (not all abilities use the stack, like tapping lands for mana). Instead, they sit on the stack until priority is passed to the other player.

d) The next player now has priority and can take as many actions as are allowed by the rules , but none of those abilities will resolve if they use the stack. Instead, they sit on the stack until priority is passed to the other player.

e) The stack only begins to resolve after all players have passed priority without taking any further action. At that point the top ability on the stack resolves, and the active player has priority again. Repeat c) - e) until the stack is empty.

f) Once both players have passed priority after taking no action on an empty stack, the game moves to the next phase or step. This is the only way to move between phases or steps which allow players priority. Not all phases and steps allow players priority.

Hope that gets you started.

-Silent Requiem

Thank, you that really was a big help to me. I returned home from GP right now, and it was just great there (got my 2 Twincast signed and altered by Christopher Moeller :tongue:). If I find the time (studying+working for money=not a lot of time) I play there on the Legacy-sideevent tomorrow with Solidarity. If I do so I let you know how it turned out.

Ok, I am right back from day 3 of GP Bochum. I played a public legacy event and played against Ubr Faeries and lost 1-2 and got kicked out immedietly because of the KO system. BAAAAD. In the first game, it lastet very long and I could go off 2 times but he always had the answer he needed and 2 times my fetch was stifled which realy threw me back and which made his Dazes way better. I saw an Volcanic Island and a Badlands, so I thought that I would face REB in game2, and I boarded 2 Twincast and 1 Hydroblast for 2 Cryptic Commands and an Opt.
I saw none of those REB in game 2 and could go off easily after I saw in a Peek a Spell Snare, 2 Dazes and 2 Stifles. I led him in a trap, because I had 4 Islands in play and didnt needed that fiths lands so badly and tried to make him feel that I WOULD need it and 4 sure he stifled the fetch (which was very good because he had drawn a Force next turn). I did this with playing Impulse after the Peek, looking a bit longer at the four cards as normal, pretending I want all of them (shuffling would raise the percentage of drawing those which I would have put on bottom, besides that, he might think that I was braining around on how important the spell would be under "only" 4 mana).
Why I say this, is that I made the experience that it is rather easy to manipulate the opponent with actions like this, especially with this deck. As I was very desperate in a game, I played a High Tide knowing that I couldnt go off that turn to steal one of his counters (I had 2 Hight Tides but no business) or just remanding my own Hight Tide because I wanted to draw a card that would be more relevant in this situation, making him think that I really wanted to go off and getting the goal that he changes his style of playing. I think that those mindgames are rather easy to perform against a lot of players because not so much people know your list or your deck. Maybe some of you can tell other "tricks" that often helped you out, would be interesting.
Game 3 I had the decision between playing Reset or Turnabout to untap my lands (he holds one card, Daze or Spell Snare) and I chose to play Reset because normally the number of Dazes are higher than the number of Spell Snares and I saw none of both in the entire game. What can I say, he had that Spell Snare :really: . After the game he told me that he had onyl 2 Snares but 4 Dazes in his deck. Great:tongue:.
A summary og the things that I learned from my last matches and testing:
I just can recommend to play Peek. It won me a lot of games (not at this day, you know:laugh:) by coincedence and was never useless. It goes out in game 2 against many decks but I really dont see any reason cutting this out of the deck, even if I think that 1 is enough. I had the impression that it is not all about how good you know the deck, the rules or the opponents deck sometimes and there Peek was very great as it showed up. Thats my point of view.
I never felt good with Cryptic Command in the last games I played and I am cutting one for a Peer through Depths in the near future. Sometimes I wanted to just timewalk the opponent with it and a maindeck bounce out of the wishboard is also useful sometimes, but really sometimes and I often wanted to have this Peer instead of it.
I wouldnt play more than 18 lands and not more than 7 fetches. I always got enough mana and really never had a problem to find those. I lost some games because I drew 2 Lands in a Meditate and I really dont want to know how this is going with 20 Lands. I understand the argument that you dont find so much lands in combo with more PtD in the maindeck and wont use Cantrips to find those, but I think there is nothing wrong with the other way around.
Play one Tropical Island and Hunting Pack in the sideboard. No really, do so! The opportunities with it are uncountable. U can just win games very very easy holding a Hand with just untap effects and Cunning Wish. And its way easier against Control decks if you need a stromcount of 5 to win not even casting a meditate. We had this point by discussing how good players play against us, they will counter our draw spells or untap effects. Have fun at playing Meditate knowing it gets countered (otherwise its easier to win the normal way) and you never cared less about it.
Its important that you dont give the opponent the info early about your splash. Its good to keep a fetchland in play till you go off, because they will think that you do this for Brainstorm anyway.
Its good against all Eldrazi-decks, its a big surprise to the opponent attacking you, facing now a lot of 4/4 beasts blocking most of the cards dead and winning next round (one more reason why you dont need that Cryptic Command that badly). You can make so many bluffs out of just these 2 cards that I dont see a reason not to play them. After youve done that, the opponent always will have that way of winning in my mind which can be also good for you. If you dont need it, dont go for the Tropical, its that simple. Test it and make a wtf-face as you see how easy it is to win a lot of games with that weird hunting pack. It is also good if you just played a Meditate, holding back counters you have found on the draws you made that turn for his extraturn, not as good as the common scenarion but important to notice. If someone is seeing a reason against it, please let me know (not those trivial ones like whats-if-you-have-a-2 land hand-and-the-opponent-plays-wasteland arguments).
Another funny story is that I wanted to play against Daniel Gardner at the "challenge a pro" section this day and the guy right before me asked him if he also plays legacy. He shrugged and said: "I dont play Legacy but if you give me a deck I will do so". So I gave him my deck and the sb, he looked through it, and asked me a few questions about the deck and how to win with that, then started shuffling, saying in a not so serious way: "Dont laugh at me if I make any mistakes. ok?". He played against Rb(g) Vial-Gobs and was blown out in the first game because he kept a 1 land hand I guess. He gave the opponent a SOM booster and said that he wants another round because he wants to see what this deck does, and won on the 6th turn without finding a High Tide in 2 Meditates and 2 Impulses:eek:!
I hope this was kind of entertaining and I hear some statements to the maindeckdecisions and Hunting Pack,
thanks for reading

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher

I wouldnt play more than 18 lands and not more than 7 fetches. I always got enough mana and really never had a problem to find those. I lost some games because I drew 2 Lands in a Meditate and I really dont want to know how this is going with 20 Lands. I understand the argument that you dont find so much lands in combo with more PtD in the maindeck and wont use Cantrips to find those, but I think there is nothing wrong with the other way around.

---

This is a point i wanted to touch. I'm running a 19 land deck. But today testing against sneak attack (with eldrazis) i tried to go off via hunting pack and failed due to i had only 2 lands. I'm not saying that i should run 20 lands but i wandered about the value of peer throught dephts vs impulse. I began running PtD because it digs 1 more card and during the combo we don't want to see a land but an instant. On the other side impulse can give us a lacking land to set on 3 o 4 islands and then go oof without screw. Can we do an split?? Or just run one or another?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher

Play one Tropical Island and Hunting Pack in the sideboard. No really, do so! The opportunities with it are uncountable. U can just win games very very easy holding a Hand with just untap effects and Cunning Wish. And its way easier against Control decks if you need a stromcount of 5 to win not even casting a meditate. We had this point by discussing how good players play against us, they will counter our draw spells or untap effects. Have fun at playing Meditate knowing it gets countered (otherwise its easier to win the normal way) and you never cared less about it.
Its important that you dont give the opponent the info early about your splash. Its good to keep a fetchland in play till you go off, because they will think that you do this for Brainstorm anyway.

---

I do so!! I run 2 tropical!

For reference i post my list (comments nd suggestions are very welcome)

// Lands
11 [4E] Island (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Tropical Island

// Spells
3 [TE] Meditate
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [US] Turnabout
2 [RAV] Remand
4 [LG] Reset
4 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [FE] High Tide (2)
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [IN] Opt
1 [VI] Three Wishes

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [FE] High Tide (2)
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [OD] Words of Wisdom
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [SC] Hunting Pack
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Thx you ALL.