All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

To me it's kinda important, that non-hive mind-combo is very rare today. In some way Brainstorm, Misstep and Counterbalance (won't Talk about FoW) negate the raw power of LED. Is that good or not to have cards that handle auch raw power?

People argue against Dismember in the same style, point on the phrexian mana. No one would complain about Dismember costing 1B. The question is the following: is 2 life equal a mana or even a landdrop? Snuff Out disagrees and Fastbond too. Choose your truth.

Is countering a vial, Nacatl, etc worth the cost? Doubt it if you counter a preordain but have none if you hit Vial or reanimate ... Damn I would even pay 5 life! Considering this ... shouldn't we think about the powerlevel of the recent One-drops too before judgeing their solution?

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Problem with Dismember is tbh only in standard. its quite wrong that every deck no matter color can have the best removal in the format. Specially in a format like standard where color is more of choice then in legacy where you can splash anything.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Fixed that for you. There's only 4 archetypes in Vintage*. The win condition is a formality. Everything else is about 40-50 cards overlap with one of the existing four.

* - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, Oath

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You can't just say Blue. There are a TON of different lists for blue with little overlap. Also nice job crossing out Bob Control. Look at the vintage top 8 from worlds. Two BOB GUSH CONTROL.

Gheizen64- I agree that targetted discard stands to benefit greatly from the banning of mental misstep and especially from brainstorm, and this in and of itself is a great thing IMO. However while the former would actually benefit my deck of choice (TA) the latter would put a serious damper on TAs viability, which is largely made possible by the very existence of brainstorm. Without brainstorm decks like TA that operate almost exclusively off conditional cards would likely die off.
So I guess ultimately my reasons are selfish, but why not since tempo decks like TA are the whole reason I play Legacy to begin with. Sniff...now look, theres a tear in my beer!

Anyway I still think the focus should be more on printing stronger, hard to splash cards in nonblue colors but it doesnt look like this is ever going to happen. oh well guess we'll see on tuesday. Either way ive said my part time to move on. Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Gheizen64- I agree that targetted discard stands to benefit greatly from the banning of mental misstep and especially from brainstorm, and this in and of itself is a great thing IMO. However while the former would actually benefit my deck of choice (TA) the latter would put a serious damper on TAs viability, which is largely made possible by the very existence of brainstorm. Without brainstorm decks like TA that operate almost exclusively off conditional cards would likely die off.
So I guess ultimately my reasons are selfish, but why not since tempo decks like TA are the whole reason I play Legacy to begin with. Sniff...now look, theres a tear in my beer!

Anyway I still think the focus should be more on printing stronger, hard to splash cards in nonblue colors but it doesnt look like this is ever going to happen. oh well guess we'll see on tuesday. Either way ive said my part time to move on. Cheers.

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I'm not asking for a ban of brainstorm, if anything, i'm for more unbanning and such. What i'm saying is simply that if people (rightly so i'd say) complain about blue, brainstorm is probably the biggest offender and MM is just a strawman. People think they lose to MM all the times but they're losing more to brainstorm than anything else. MM being everywhere isn't also a really good argument when brainstorm and FoW are played only slightly less (last T16 of SGC, 54 MM vs 50 FoW), and MM is played also in decks that doesn't splash blue, so it isn't really helpful for the argument "blue is everywhere", unless you consider 4MM and 0 islands a blue splash.

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Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun

This is what happens when a format that has never had a real defined meta develops one. The players of this format just don't know what to do. This is why survival got banned, there were real strategies to beat those decks but the general public was so mystified that they couldn't beat it with the exact same shit they had been playing that they demanded a ban. They got it and it un-defined the meta for a while. Now we have one again and guess what, the calls for bans are back.




I can tell you combo needs brainstorm a lot less than control.

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And I can say you're full of it and that combo has way more situational and dead pieces and sometimes even pieces it can't have in hand.

Let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

Some more interesting data:

These are the decks that played at least 1% of the color shown, but not the respective Blue dual with it. So, the white is anything playing at least 1% White, but not Tundra. Everything else is the same. Top 16 from SCG events.

05-22-11 - Present:
White 67 29%
Green 68 29%
Red 37 16%
Black 60 26%
Total 235

01-02-11 - 05-15-11:
White 82 32%
Green 75 29%
Red 55 21%
Black 67 26%
Total 256

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

And I can say you're full of it and that combo has way more situational and dead pieces and sometimes even pieces it can't have in hand.

Let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

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I can't articulate the reasoning for combo not to be the one benefitting the most from brainstorm

To the people talking about how diverse the format is:

I think that really depends on your definition of diverse. I look at the DTB and see 1 Aggro, 1 Combo deck and then a mix of Aggro/Control decks.

Zoo: Aggro
Reanimator: Combo
Merfolk: Aggro/Control
Maverick: Mid-Range Aggro
Rock: Mid-Range Aggro
Team America: Mid-Range Control
Blade Control: Control
NO RUG: Combo Control

There is a lot of variations on these so it is very hard to lock them down, but there is only one true Aggro deck that is viable. Zoo. There is only one true Combo deck: Reanimator.

After that, it's decks with significant amounts of control. Sure, one uses WU instead of BUG, but it's really getting to be: 4 FoW + 4 MM + 4 Brainstorm + 48 Cards = Deck. 4 of the decks run that package. A 5th skips Brainstorm.

How is 5 decks running 8 of the exact same cards diverse? It's just, star with this shell, add your favorite color(s) and call it a deck.

It would have been more useful the lists that run at least 1% white, 1% blue, but not tundra, to account for the missteps.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Brainstorm gone would neuter combo as much if not more than control. Not being able to hide bombs from discard is huge and i'd say more important for combo, especially if it's of the type "1 bomb and win" like AnT, SpiralTide and SnT.

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Most combo decks in Legacy run Brainstorm and Ponder. With BS banned they can Switch to preordain or Top. Hiding cards is overrated if I look at the actual meta. There's Hymn and sometimes Thougtseize in Team Amerika. IF Misstep stays Thoughtseize is out of the bill.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Your point 2 is just false. Banning Brainstorm would not make blue unable to dig for defensive cards in any shape, way or form. The game would not be more of a gamble in any way. If anything, people would rely less on that Brainstorm on T1 to keep hands with one hand and shuffle back the garbage and play a bit more carefully.

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Brainstorm T1 is a mistake if there's not an Ad Nauseam an shit on the stack and you need a counter. Considering such a thing to prove me wrong is pointless. Brainstorm is an instant; sorcery speed selection is Low powered with all the narrow counterspells.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

I hate to repeat the obvious, but since you're deliberatingly omitting it, blue is actually the color of library manipulation and most decks already play Ponder. Then there's Preordain, and then, if you want, Portent and Opt. For decks that like to shuffle cards back like NO variants, there's See Beyond. Yes, that's actually a decent card that doesn't see play in Legacy (while does a little in Vintage) because brainstorm exist.

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How can you compare See Beyond and Brainstorm for the sheer ability to shuffle shit away? Different cardtype and manacost. Comparing Ancestral Recall and Concentrate here. No base for serious discussion

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

The second part of your point is actually ignoring that there are instant card selection spells in magic aside Brainstorm, for example Top, and there's also the false analogy that Brainstorm is the thing that make players interact. Actually, in the case you described, Brainstorm isn't interacting, it's digging for answers. Casting the dig spell before the threat spell or in response of it on the stack doesn't change the number of cards you can dig, but only force you to make your choice sooner, and this make conditional answers (like Daze and MM) worse.

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If you've ever sat in front of a 16-card-stack, you'll maybe understand what I mean. Interaction in Magic means playing a threat and answer it; how can you say Brainstorm isn't interacting? The second part is obviously right

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

But stay assured the biggest changes here are that discard would become actually relevant and that blue would lose a way to ancestral in the midgame (before Jace). Topdecking or such stupid things aren't what would change with Brainstorm gone. Also, look at JTMS to see how "bad" sorcery library manipulation is and how much blue "topdeck" in those conditions.

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Jace is more than "just" Library manipulation, you know that.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Your assertions about Zoo are also false, since Zoo (Aggro in general) actually care a lot about its draws, if he draws creature in late game is actually usually in a bad position since control play Batterskulls and Goyfs and planeswalkers that bounce or kill creatures (the new Liliana is also an house). There's a reason burn in those decks is called "reach".

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You are right in that context. I took my example to differ that there's a crucial difference in having spell snare drawn if your opponents doesn't play a 2cc-spell in his turn than, Zoo drawing Nacatl, Loam Lion or Kird Ape. Redundance is the keyword.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

And again, there's a reason Sylvan Library is one of the strongest card in Zoo or if Zoo evolved in variants like Big Zoo. Because "dumb creatures that swing" aren't actually everything Aggro is about. Your whole argument is a big generalization of ideas (Brainstorm buff blue, and as such nerf combo: false, combo is as blue as control is) people (people cry for misstep and then will cry for LED: false, people say MM isn't the right thing to ban since MM isn't the reason blue is everywhere. There are multiple reasons for this, obviously, the biggest one is probably Brainstorm, in alternative, the old Island proposition is still there), decks (Aggro decks are dumbs and don't care about what they draw: false, aggro does care as much as control, especially in the days where control have huge midgame bombs like Jace and Batterskull that seal the game extremely quickly) and to top it all, sarcastic remarks about supposedly "bad" deck builders.

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1. Combo is As Blue as control: There are certain Combo-Decks this stand true but generalisation is that you throw to my head but doing exact the same here

2. Do we argue about mm, brainstorm or both? I'm Not sure here. My predicted result of banning both is based of the asumption that Vial and Zoo do the same thing they did before misstep and at that time back then we had here the complaints that LED and S&T are unfair and need the hammer.

3. I'm not sarcastic, I'm irritated to hear that bad deckbuilding isn't considered being a reason for loosing against 1-2 counterspells, resulting in a mindset that blue is [insert insult]. Both of my examples happend in real life in one of the stores I visit.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Your pre-emptive attacks on everyone that don't have the same PoV as you have are also fascinating. We aren't actually debating about religion or any kind of dogma here. We're having arguments, and everyone can be in the wrong since an absolute truth doesn't exist (my argument, in case you missed it, and the argument for many beside me, is that MM isn't the culprit of Blue dominance and banning MM wouldn't actually achieve anything its detractor thinks it would achieve. Blue being able to run MM and other color not is a testament of the real problem here: the ability of blue to run conditional cards thanks to the ability to reshuffle cards back in with Brainstorm.

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You find it offensive? Ok, I can live with it and the possibility that truth is somewhere in the middle of certain extreme positions we two and others have. Please explain why other colors can Not run misstep? I've seen the opposite from Maverick to Goblins. Protect your cards from backbreaking common answers is desireable. Reshuffling is indeed very strong. We don't need to discuss blues strengths.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

I argue that with Brainstorm gone, MM would also see a decise decrease in play and the power relationship between archetypes would remain largely unchanged, however the relationship between colors would probably get slightly better. In particular, and i speak only for myself here, i think blue would lose a bit of its power while black and possibly green would be see the biggest benefit).

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Mostly agree. My post adresses the Banning of misstep, brainstorm or both. I can not predict how this certain Ban would affect the meta.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Keep your "my idea is better than yours" elsewhere along with your false analogies and with your categorization of people (i heard there's a word for that).

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Wow! To this point I felt we have a serious discussion. Because I have the feeling that you are a careful reader you sure saw that I'm from germany and I'm pretty sure that fact made you using that phrases.

Calling me pretty obviously a NAZI in an open Forum like this, disgusts me in so many ways I can not explain without being banned. It near equals being american and ask a japanese laughing: "How tasted Hiroshima?". Do you even have any idea how insulting that is or do you simply don't care?

I can not ignore that neither can I get over that.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

To the people talking about how diverse the format is:

I think that really depends on your definition of diverse. I look at the DTB and see 1 Aggro, 1 Combo deck and then a mix of Aggro/Control decks.

Zoo: Aggro
Reanimator: Combo
Merfolk: Aggro/Control
Maverick: Mid-Range Aggro
Rock: Mid-Range Aggro
Team America: Mid-Range Control
Blade Control: Control
NO RUG: Combo Control

There is a lot of variations on these so it is very hard to lock them down, but there is only one true Aggro deck that is viable. Zoo. There is only one true Combo deck: Reanimator.

After that, it's decks with significant amounts of control. Sure, one uses WU instead of BUG, but it's really getting to be: 4 FoW + 4 MM + 4 Brainstorm + 48 Cards = Deck. 4 of the decks run that package. A 5th skips Brainstorm.

How is 5 decks running 8 of the exact same cards diverse? It's just, star with this shell, add your favorite color(s) and call it a deck.

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Honestly i think legacy had always the appearance of being more "diverse" only because early on each expansion actually influenced it a lot. Going back in time, there was also a time when it was all Thresh and thresh variants. Then Goyf and Tombstalker came. Then Progenitus made NO a legitimate strategy. Then Emrakul made SnT an annoying card. Jace changed the game of control. SFM + batterskull was another boon for control, Nacatl and Lynx also improved Zoo consistently, while goblin didn't see any equivalent improvement and as such slowly disappeared (unban recruiter plz?). Maverick was made possible by cheap and scalable bombs like GSZ and KotR. Vengevine broke Survival. The praetor reanimated Reanimator. Hive mind came to life after the printing of pacts. And so on and so on. If no new meaningful cards (MM ain't since it doesn't create strategies, just go everywhere) are added to the pool, then the meta can stabilize at a point, reaching the point where we are now. That said, i'm not entirely convinced we have seen all the format can give us now.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

It would have been more useful the lists that run at least 1% white, 1% blue, but not tundra, to account for the missteps.

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I'm not sure I follow this. You want to see the % of decks that run 1% White, 1% Blue and no Tundra? Getting the data is pretty easy once I figured out their URLs so I can get whatever you need. You want to see the decks that run Misstep, but not Islands, is that it?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Calling me pretty obviously a NAZI in an open Forum like this, disgusts me in so many ways I can not explain without being banned. It near equals being american and ask a japanese laughing: "How tasted Hiroshima?". Do you Even have any idea how insulting that is or do you simply don't care?

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Dude seriously? We're in 2011 just in case you forgot, i don't give a shit if someone call me on what happened 70 years ago. Grow up, i COULD understand if you were a black man from america or south africa of the 60', but being a german (btw, thanks for pointing out something i didn't even know, but i guess you had to invalidate my arguments some way and Godwin's Law is good for this) of (i guess) the '80 generation all you can talk me about are the Kraftwerk and such.

Yes, people don't consider a deck that splashes misstep a "blue" deck, and want to take that out of the equation.

To be honest, even if all of the decklists in the dtb ran MM and brainstorm, I would not consider it to be overpowered. You know what brainstorm and MM do? They make your deck not shit all over itself and stop decks from shitting all over you respectively. This does not blue's cards overpowered, but rather consistent. And I am all for consistency, because when I attend a tourney, I want it to be less coin-flip more decision making. Now, what I would really like to see is some other colors get some consistency cards... preferably ones that don't cost 4+ so they are actually relevant(consistency needs to occur most within the first few turns of the game, as this is where variance is most likely to screw you).

Would we all still be bitching if mental misstep was red? It would not bother me... but I am curious as to what other people think.

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Originally Posted by Draener

To be honest, even if all of the decklists in the dtb ran MM and brainstorm, I would not consider it to be overpowered. You know what brainstorm and MM do? They make your deck not shit all over itself and stop decks from shitting all over you respectively. This does not blue's cards overpowered, but rather consistent. And I am all for consistency, because when I attend a tourney, I want it to be less coin-flip more decision making. Now, what I would really like to see is some other colors get some consistency cards... preferably ones that don't cost 4+ so they are actually relevant(consistency needs to occur most within the first few turns of the game, as this is where variance is most likely to screw you).

Would we all still be bitching if mental misstep was red? It would not bother me... but I am curious as to what other people think.

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At most it could've been white... As a white card i would have liked so much more, yeah.

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Originally Posted by DrJones

Yes, people don't consider a deck that splashes misstep a "blue" deck, and want to take that out of the equation.

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1% White, 1% Blue, no Tundra would show decks with Misstep in a non-blue deck. Unfortunately, it would also show a lot of Dredge decks. That's going to be harder to sort out. I can do Misstep, 1% White no Tundra though. Is that what you want?

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Originally Posted by CorpT

Some more interesting data:

These are the decks that played at least 1% of the color shown, but not the respective Blue dual with it. So, the white is anything playing at least 1% White, but not Tundra. Everything else is the same. Top 16 from SCG events.

05-22-11 - Present:
White 67 29%
Green 68 29%
Red 37 16%
Black 60 26%
Total 235

01-02-11 - 05-15-11:
White 82 32%
Green 75 29%
Red 55 21%
Black 67 26%
Total 256

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All that tells me is that blue pre-misstep and post-misstep is a prevalent support color and that 'diversity' in regards to the color pie itself is a mere illusion though that is not necessarily a bad thing. Red declining the most at 5% with other colors staying exactly the same except for white decreasing at 3% shows that Goblins/burn became a weakened strategy post-misstep. Nothing surprising at all. Kind of makes me think that people who want misstep banned are the ones who played Goblins.

But then again, anyone can turn raw statistics data into whatever they want it to say amiright?

05-22-11 - Present
Decks running 10% Color, Misstep and No Blue/Color Dual:
White: 6
Green: 6
Red: 3
Black: 5

Green and White were 100% overlap. Black was a subset of those. So, a total of 9 decks running Misstep and not Blue. I had to up to 10% to avoid Reanimator targets.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Dude seriously? We're in 2011 just in case you forgot, i don't give a shit if someone call me on what happened 70 years ago. Grow up, i COULD understand if you were a black man from america or south africa of the 60', but being a german (btw, thanks for pointing out something i didn't even know, but i guess you had to invalidate my arguments some way and Godwin's Law is good for this) of (i guess) the '80 generation all you can talk me about are the Kraftwerk and such.

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So you run through the street throwing germans and blacks the "n-words" against their head and advise them to "grow up"? This post is full of arrogance and ignorance... disgusting