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So basically IGG just boosts storm count. What would a typical IGG loop be? One involving Burning Wish, LED, and rite of flame, or what. Then, it seems like Diminishing Returns is "if all else fails"? (forgive my ignorance, heh.)
As for the beginning, I'll probably start out with just using Bryant's list, so I'm covered for the Xantid Swarm.
Thanks for your help.
Welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by bojangles
To be honest, right now in TES, IGG and DR are almost exactly the same if you are playing Bryant's list. Both require you to have 6 mana before and 2 mana after floating. The difference comes from their stipulations before you go for them. ANT players tend to like IGG because they can see the win from it. IGG basically gives you 4 storm after the wish. You typically need 3-mana acceleration (LED, Rit, or 2 Rite of Flames in the yard), 3-mana acceleration and a tutor.
Please note that Burning Wish gets exiled here so unless you discarded it or used an Infernal tutor before, you can't really go for IGG unless you double cantripped but that's more advanced.
With that, you use the two floating mana,.. you make more mana, or with LED, you just play them. Cast your tutor/wish for the win. Another technique you can use is tutor into another tutor into tendrils. That adds one more storm to the IGGy loop, but that only works with double LED or lots of Rite of Flames.
DR is almost the same in that you have to float 6 mana going into it so you have 2 floating after you cast DR. Then it is quite random. I guess what's important is you have to have at least 2 floating and they should be difference colours. It doesn't matter what combination of UBR is floating but as long as they are different the chances are quite high. I don't know who did the math, but that's the idea. I've been pretty successful going in with that mind set. The storm count here is quite random though, so you might have to go into it going into another engine.
Both ways have a big flaw in that they require more resources than Ad Nauseam so that is why lots of people find it easier to just go with Ad Nauseam. Another flaw is that if youare fighting against countermagic, the opponent might get a fresh hand from DR or reuse their old countermagic from IGG so you pretty much have to cast Orim's Chant before hand. Against Zoo or Sligh, they have another drawback in that your oppoenent will get to reuse/new burns to burn you out, so becareful!
I guess an advantage IGG has over DR is that in the combo mirror, IGG hurts the opposing combo more if you don't kill them where as DR might give them a better hand.
DR and IGG can be used in situations where Ad Nauseam isn't viable, like when your life total is really low or might go down really fast.
I hope I helped.
One advantage the IGG loop has over Diminishing Returns is that when you cast Ill-Gotten Gains, your opponent is dead.
One of the problems with Burning Wish is that you can't just kill someone with Burning Wish and mana the way you can with Infernal Tutor (for Ad Nauseam) so you need to do some more work. If you have two rituals plus two Wishes or Wish and Tutor, you can Wish for Ill-Gotten Gains, cast Ill-Gotten Gains, return your rituals and the Wish or Tutor, and get Tendrils. Wishing for Ill-Gotten Gains will ultimately add six to your storm count. (Wish, IGG, ritual, ritual, tutor, Tendrils) The full loop costs twelve mana. (Burning Wish, Ill-Gotten Gains, Wish/Tutor, Tendrils) Seven mana plus Ritual and LED is a kill. Eight mana with two Rituals or Rite of Flame plus LED is a kill. Nine mana with Ritual and Rite of Flame is also a kill.
When you only have one Burning Wish and can't profitably Empty the Warrens for a bunch (because of Explosives or a lethal flier or whatever) you have to spin the wheel and cast Diminishing Returns.
Yes I'm talking about the latest one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
I know, right, theoretically there are lots of ways for getting W, however - when playtesting, I was lacking W way over 50% of the time... I guess I just have bad luck...
I also had some problems finding white mana from time to time. That's why i changed my manabase a bit. For reference:Quote:
Originally Posted by ndread
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Other than that I have 4 Lotus Petal and 3 Chrome Mox to fix white mana.
50% is a lot. Keep trying. I maybe have them stuck in my hand 5% of the time. The only tip I can give you is the one I gave you in my last post.. or the one before,... whatever:Quote:
Originally Posted by ndread
Save your rainbowlands/petals for them. That's the easiest way.
PS: Also if you don't have rainbowlands/lotus petals, throw them back with a Brainstorm and shuffle with a fetchland.
Is there any particular reason you guys don't just use a nine fetchland configuration with a Tundra?
I think if you are playing the 5 color TES version, you have to go with the rainbow lands. A nine fetchland configuration with Tundra doesn't seem optimal.
I just came across a situation in goldfishing that made me wonder.
Turn 3, Volcanic and USea in play untapped
Hand after Drawstep: 3 Petal, Ritual, 2 Burning Wish, Gemstone Mine
So whats my play here? I figured DR might be profitable (2 Mana of my Choice and 6 Storm after casting it will probably get there), but how do I play it, assuming my opponent has no counterspells and won't draw any.
Do I play Gemstone?
Do I pay for the DR with my Lands or the Petals?
If I pay with my lands, do I keep the Petals or do I sac them to get em into the library?
I decided that I want two mana, so I played gemstone and kept Petals to increase the chance of flipping business. I got there, but was the play correct or did I just get lucky?
.
As far as I can see, he was 1 mana short of being able to IGG.
It seems correct to not shuffle the petals back in. Mostly because you don't know what colors you will need, and you're just hoping to flip LEDs and Tutors and not more intial mana.
By playing the land you could end up in a situation where you flip IT and no way to get hellbent, because you also flipped a new land but no way to get rid of it. Despite this, it just seems terribly wrong not to play the land. There are so many cards that prevent that scenario from happening that I think you don't need to worry about it. (LED, Brainstorm, Ponder into BS/LED, etc..)
I would have cast BW for DReturns, played the land and passed the turn (assuming u weren't dead next turn or needed Duress/Thoughtseize for something.) Then played DReturns on turn 4 with B floating and 3 Petals in play, u have quite a high win percentage from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
I'd playQuote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Gemstone Mine, Petal, Petal, Petal, ritual.
Including the lands in play - Volcanic and USea - that gives you 8 available mana.
You can then play Burning wish - if he counters - that's already 6 spells - if he doesn't - it doesn't matter, just builds up the spell count, pick up something for later.
Another Burning wish - 6 (7) spells
Empty the Warrens - 14 (16) goblins.
I never use diminishing returns unless i'm really forced to - it could prove to be a self-pwn whereas 16 goblins are more of a sure play
I would make that "something for later" Diminishing Returns.Quote:
Originally Posted by ndread
Right! This way, you can still play them later if you really want to :DQuote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
For the record though, I agree with Pulp Fiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by ndread
Turn 3 Empty is usually not enough.
That's interesting. In my experience, everytime I try to set up for a DR a turn before, something screws me. I'm glad it actually works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Mh, depending on the opponenet that is probably the best way, didn't really think of this.
Lets say I'm dead next turn, was the play correct?
Thats the right play if u are dead next turn, you didn't have very much mana floating afterwards but in that scenario u have to go for it. Generally Goblin tokens won't be good after turns 1-2. Even against decks like Goblins, once they get going, they multiply so rapidly that they will just overwhelm ur 12-14 tokens in a matter of turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
Assuming ur dead next turn u have 3 options, First Option: make tokens which may or may not get there depending on both players board positions, what ur playing against, and life totals.
Second Option: Tendrils for 18, perhaps they used a few fetchlands and u can flat out kill them right there.
Third Option: Go for the hail mary DReturns with 2x Petals in play and storm count 6 after it resolves.
I love the hail Mary option and often win with it.
Although, I would strongly consider 1 other factor into the equation. How good is your opponent? I mean with goblin tokens you still force them to win the match, they just can't swing blindly with everything next turn depending on how many tokens you made otherwise they may lose. Against a good opponent I am much more apt to go for a hail Mary and move the win out of their hands and put it on my deck and me to come through.
The other thought, which I'm not sure was brought up is that you create a bunch of tokens and actually use them to either force a standoff or as removal by blocking other goblins. Most goblins have a maximum toughtness of 2... this has some amount of flaws from the randomly cycled incinerator to the random sharp shooter in the deck which is found with Matron. Depending on your hand state and your mana state you could go off again with 3 or 4 cards and enough land/mana sources initially in play.