So, that new blue 10cc mythic enchantment...too cute to run or what?
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So, that new blue 10cc mythic enchantment...too cute to run or what?
I could see one make something crazy with Academy Rector, but havent got a list. It would be crazy having that in play, with high powered costing cards in hand.
But in NicFit, I don't think so.
A ten Mana enchantment that does nothing on its own? I don't think so...
Anyway, i hope there will be a black, green or white version of it that does something useful. With Griselbrand big in the Meta I think the only playble version of this deck is Gbw with 3-4 Academy Rector and maindeck Humility. Tough to say but other versions just get destroyed by Griselbrand -_-
You can't prevent it from entering the battlefield just with Discard and with three completely different ways to cheat it into play (SNT, SA, Reanimate) you can't really prevent it in other ways. Removal is obviously useless against Griselbrand.
Did some more testing with Lingering Souls. The card is very good. It requires no setup at all and thanks to Flashback you can just run it out without worrying about countermagic or removal which is very comfortable. It also synergizes with Cabal Therapy and Humility while blocking Delver and fights Planeswalkers. I like it a lot.
I've often wanted to durdle with some crazy four or five color Rector build that can take advantage of all of the weird enchantments that blue gets. Cast Through Time, anyone? I know it'd be horrible, but it'd probably be an absolute blast to play.
I don't think that Humility needs to be maindeck. Right now both Humility and Moat are sitting in my sideboard, as arguably two of the most powerful enchantment bullets that can be brought in for different matchups.
Also, Tao, my updated blue version has been enjoying a lot of success at fighting Sneak/Show. Unless something remarkable happens this weekend at the legacy open, though, I'm pretty locked on playing GBW at the GP. It's just better against everything that isn't Sneak/Show, and it can actually play against that deck if it has to. I'll post my updated blue and white lists in a few hours when I'm home for lunch.
Ive Always wanted to make a version of this deck with 4 rectors and like form of the dragon, decree of silence, etc. It would be god awful but if I can get my hands on couple more rectors I might sleeve it up for an causal weekly event sometime.
With Griselbrand here to stay for a couple of months I agree GBW Rector builds are the way to go. I would hate to drop Humility (I played against it once and hated being on the receiving end) it is the best hate for SneakyShow I guess.
For fun I've been toying with a GBu build on MWS (yeah I know). I'm going to take it to my local FNM to see how it goes.
//Creatures: 14
2x Eternal Witness
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Trygon Predator
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Grave Titan
2x Coiling Oracle
//Spells: 20
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Gifts Ungiven
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deeds
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Sensei's Divining Top
//Planeswalkers: 4
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Lands: 22
3x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island
//
3x Arcane Laboratory
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Propaganda
3x Chill
The funny thing is it feels allot more like a control deck than the GBW versions I've played. Allot of games I just resolve Jace and control their draw/board until I find Gifts and Kokusho-loop them. Jace (or should I say card drawing) is really good in this deck. Perhaps I should fit Fact or Fiction in here somewhere.
There's a very serious problem with your blue list: you aren't running Brainstorm. In my experience, Fact has been better than Gifts, for what it's worth. It's interesting; our blue lists are otherwise rather similar but still somewhat different. Why aren't you running Fierce Empath to tutor for Titan/Kokusho off of GSZ?
Also, your board looks horrible...or is it just tuned for a local meta?
I havent really missed brainstorm. I have been able to ramp into jace or gifts for witness/kokusho/nightmare/stronghold each game. Gifts has been really good so far. But like I said I just threw it together and played MWS a bunch of games (terrible opponents of course ;)) The board is just the same. Thrown together with my local meta in mind (which contains goblins and burn hence the chills)
Perhaps FoF is better. But you dont get the tutoring power from that like you get from gifts. Speaking of tutoring: with gifts I havent needed Fierce empath.
Right now its all just for fun. When I feel like playing serious I take BGW.
I almost want to try out a Natural Order build with Prog and Terastodon. Saw a list a while ago which seemed like allot of fun.
The (Updated and massively revised) Blue:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
1 Smother
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Smother
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Gilded Drake
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 2 Mana Leak
SB: 2 Duress
This list has been performing admirably against the meta, but I'm not confident in it enough to play it at the GP, since it hasn't existed for anywhere near as long, and I'm a lot less sure about its tribal matchup (which was something that wasn't in the testing gauntlet). Technically I have a week before the GP, but the white list is just so much polished and tuned after a year of playing it....I'd have a hard time justifying switching from the old faithful to the shiny hot new thang.
Speaking of....
The (Atlanta) White:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Academy Rector
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Sun Titan
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
Things I'm still working on tweaking:
The only things I'm not happy with maindeck are that I would like to have the 3rd Thoughtseize back, and I would also like to have a 1-of Path to Exile in the maindeck. No idea what the hell I'm going to cut to make that happen, if anything. Might just decide it's not worth it. The Path is more important to me than the Thoughtseize, if that helps.
The sideboard. I'm happy with everything except for the slot that's currently occupied by the Maelstrom Pulse. I frankly have no idea what I want to put there. I feel like it should be something that annoys aggro....I'm anticipating Canadian Thresh, Maverick, and Merfolk to all be big at Atlanta, alongside various Storm, Sneak/Show, and Reanimator. The renewal of Merfolk as a deck makes Perish a less attractive option. I was thinking maybe just Wrath of God (since my list is heavier white than black), but that feels wrong. Anyone have any suggestions? Barring final tweaks, that's what I'll be bringing.
Elspeth? What does she do for you? She's a beast and all, but looks out of place and doesn't seem to fit into the game plan...though I guess she makes tokens that can be Nightmared
A lot of the time, Garruk Relentless functioned not as removal, and not as engine. He functioned as a Bitterblossom, stonewalling a lone attacker or applying increasing pressure to an empty field. Elspeth is a lot better at that than Garruk is, and that kind of effect is something that's pretty awesome. Also of note is that she is a much better way to break Moat/Humility parity postboard against aggro decks, which happens to be highly synergistic with the main deck. She allows you to play control, forcing your opponent to overextend into Deed to deal with her. I used to run her as a 1-of when Garruk was in the list, and I was always impressed by her...even vs combo, because she can sit there and 4 (at least) your opponent every turn with no additional resources required. Also of note is how she synergizes with Pernicious Deed. If you manage to get her emblem off, good luck is all I'll say. Shit gets stupid so fast...
@Arian:
- You should really really give Lingering Souls a shot. Elspeth is not even close to Souls in this. Being a flying blocker, the cheaper Mana cost and the resiliency to counters/discard makes Souls better in basically every situation. I hesitated to put it into the deck, too, but when I did it didn't take me long to be convinced. I know Elspeth can be better if the game goes for 6 turns but that is not nearly as important.
- Try Recycle instead of Phyrexian Arena. You will outdraw Jace in no time with it. I don't know if you ever played with it but the engine is sick. You draw ~4-5 cards a turn if you want. Flashback and Top are a good ensurance to not get locked.
- why Ring over Fetters? especially with Grisel in the Meta where it can steal wins (unlike Ring).
@Arian
The blue list looks interesting, with tribal decks coming back, I think targeted removal is necessary.. I really like the strix as it acts as a draw and removal at the same time..
Jace being the planes walker also helps.
@ Tao
I think Phyrexian arena is better just because its castable unlike recycle if found in the hand.
I will try to encorporate lingering souls into my build as well... Flyers are always a problem for nicfit..
Generally speaking, is veteran explorer even good vs tribal decks like merf and gobs, or should you side them out... Hmmmmm.. Im not sure if I hurt myself letting merfolks get 2 more basic lands.. I think I did actually kill myself because of veteran explorer... or maybe the merfolk player was just lucky to have speed and double force of will and daze..
Musta? Having an explorer is bad for Folks and Gobs. I faced the Gobs and I just gave him fuel. Good thing that he kept on drawing fetches so I got the momentum for G2. Its also a good thing I have a Deed in play so I still won that game. On G2 and G3, I removed 2 Explorer for minimize damage. I think you saw my G3, we ended with a draw even if the board is under my control :|Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
For Merfolk, I think that guy was just lucky. Gobs and Merfolks are really different against Nic Fit but as you know, sweepers are the only key for Nic Fit.
Btw, I like what you did on having 2 P. Towers. Now, I need 1 more :)
I disagree RE Gobs and Fish. When I started working on the deck a year ago, both decks still existed and were played. Yes, both tribal decks get value out of it as well. But consider the following:
-) We use it a hell of a lot better than they do. Tribal decks are built with a low curve that they don't even need mana to cast (Aether Vial, Lackey). Yes, it makes them go faster and harder, but we're using the mana so much more efficiently that it makes up for. You stick a Baneslayer on turn 3 against a tribal deck, for example, and it doesn't matter HOW many dudes they drop the next turn. At least, not until they hit like 3+ lord territory....and then they get hit with Pernicious Deed.
-) Most of the time, if the tribal player knows what we're doing (which a lot of people still don't know what Veteran Explorer is), Vet will act as a 1-mana Moat by himself. They don't know what we're doing, so they won't take a chance until they're ready, which buys us time to draw into a sac outlet/a sweeper to go with it.
-) He blocks Lackey. We all know how important this is.
@Tao --
I have considered Recycle but never actually tried it. I do think I'm going to stick with Arena, though -- I really like that I can drop it t2 after Explorer does his thing, and without Souls I'm worried about getting locked. I also think that such a build would want the full 4 Tops.
Souls is interesting, and I think that there is a meta where it's good, but I'm not sure that it's this meta, or this configuration of my deck. Elspeth is primarily to break aggro decks where I have Humility in (Maverick comes to mind), while also providing a fast clock vs combo. Don't get me wrong -- Souls is stupid good. I'm just not sure how good it is -right now-.
Went to a local legacy 8 man yesterday with a version similar to Atlanta White above, except no baneslayers, 2 innocent bloods main, and 2 Living Death main, Finks, and some other variations. Went 3-1 in the Swiss, losing to...guess it...Show and Tell...and made the top 4 to lose to Show and Tell again.
First round was 2-0 against show and tell dream halls/conflux. Game one he durdled and lost and I didn't see much. Game 2, timely cabal therapies stripped his hand of force and daze, then another therapy for progenitus made him lose the cards he brainstormed to the top of his deck. He later got Prog into play, which I tried to ditch with Innocent Blood (force) but Living Death cleaned things up afterwards.
Next up was Show and tell, I kept horrible hands and got mana screwed both games. Game 1 I might have pulled out because I didn't swing for 3 damage when he was at 10 with griselbrand tapped, but next turn he Bargained and got Emrakul for the win. The whole game i was on 3 forests and couldnt get anything else while I had plenty of black cards that would've been useful. Next game he got turn 1 show and tell for Emrakul. Neither games I could mull into anything worthwhile, be it discard or rector.
Played Pox next round and won 2-0. Double Rector game 1 nullified his desire to pox at all, which he eventually was forced to do. I grabbed Arena and Nightmare, then GSZ for Finks. I threaten to nightmare back my explorers and he scoops. Game 2 I get turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity which nullifies his double Cursed Scroll. I put down Explorer and he rituals out Nether Void. I use Tower to get mana and lands and put down Thrun (can't be countered lololol). He contemplates things and tries to ritual out Smallpox but scoops. I then played his burn deck for a few games and won every one on the back of finks, Ooze, and explorer fueled discard.
I get matched up against the same Show and Tell in the top 4 and get screwed by my bad mulligans and hands again. Game 1 I put down pridemage and try to go all in with tower to get Garruk but he counties it. he gets sneak attack next turn and wins shortly after on the back of griselbrand. Game two I am greeted by a horrific hand of Blood, Therapy, and 5 lands and keep it for some reason. He gets turn 0 Leyline so I have one shot with Therapy...swing and miss on Show and tell (prob should have gone with Sneak attack since I had blood). His next plays were intuition for sneak attack and he wins sometime later. I proceed to end the game with 11 out of my 13 cards being lands...some fetches of course.
I've been getting all the cards together for the WBG Rector version, but i've been wondering how much spot removal you should run? Is the 2 Innocent bloods/StP + 1 Maelstrom that i've seen on the last lists enough? Is Baneslayer really needed? I get that she's good, and has lifelink and all, but i really like Percy on that spot aswell.
The Deeds are your primary means of removal, so you don't need to rely on too much targeted hate. I generally run 2x Blood, 1x StP, 2x Deed, and 2x Maelstrom Pulse (more for troublesome planeswalkers or tokens) and it does fine for me. I could probably take down the Pulse or Swords by 1.
I haven't tested Baneslayer. It seems good for lifelink and she's a house, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything since I get my lifegain via other means. She does trump the majority of creatures out there and is a wall against Griselbrand, so she's worth testing out.
I usually run 3 deed, 2 pulse and either 3 STP or 1 stp and 2 innocent blood.
Baneslayer Angel is really good. I must admit I have a soft spot for lifegain in this deck since it sometimes takes a while to get going. I've won my fair share of games going into the lower single digits. As we dont run any counterspells that's always risky.
It also depends on the meta of course.
I've played with both BSA and Batterskull. BSA is just way better. Flying and First Strike are really good.
@Claymore -- what other variations did you make, out of curiosity? Also, how were you able to therapy him at all if he had t0 leyline? Probably missing something...it's early >_<
@Viridia -- don't forget to count your Rector removal slot in your tally. Personally, I think that while Show/Tell and Reanimator are still as popular as they are, O-Ring is the better choice currently. If the format shifts back towards slow, grindy planeswalker decks, then Fetters gets the nod. I personally am currently running 1 Pulse, 1 Vindicate, 1 O-Ring, 3 Deeds, and 1 Swords main, with an additional Swords and a Path in my board. We do rely on Deed to do most of our heavy lifting, removal-wise, but it's also worth remembering that we abuse Eternal Witness, especially with Nightmare shenanigans. The green Snapcaster is pretty sweet because it doesn't exile what you're flashing back =P If you can set up a Nightmare loop with E Wit, you don't have to worry about running out of removal.
@Baneslayer -- she races Progenitus, walls Griselbrand hard, and flat-out wins pretty much any aggro matchup that she runs into, while flying over your Moat and laughing at their ground-pounders. She also pretty much beats Canadian Thresh by herself. A while ago, we were discussing 6-drops in this thread, someone who has since moved on to a different deck had a very interesting insight that I completely agree with: your 6-drops are there to break the game wide open...to threaten nuclear war. Sun Titan + Deed/Witness, Kokusho +sac-outlet for a 10-point swing, threatening win with Nightmare, etc. But most games, your 6's just open the field and drain your opponents of options. Your 5's are what usually actually win you the game. I agree with this 100%. I once said that I wouldn't recommend Baneslayer unless you were running Moat, but history has proven me wrong. She's everything we could ask for except being GSZ-able.
On that note, once M13 drops, I'm going to actually drop one of my Baneslayers in favor of a Thragtusk, which will give me one each of them, and one Sigarda. I'm not sure how it'll work out, but I'm going to at least try it. Being able to Zenith Thragtusk seems huge, and it's obviously broken with Nightmare.