[Primer/Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins

Round 3: Death & Taxes (draw with a greasy game 2 where I had to trade one for one until I was able to land an Ensnaring Bridge due to my opponent's Umezawa's Jitte)

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Hey Lyle,
Why do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge against D&T? I've seen a lot of people doing this in the reports, but never understood. D&T has a lot of 1 power creatures, plus with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, Rishadan Port, and Sanctum Prelate I feel you can get stuck with cards in hand and difficulties getting them out (and difficulty getting out the bridge as well). They can also swing pump with Umezawa's Jitte to get under the bridge. They can also bounce bridge with Flickerwisp to swing for a turn, plus with Recruiter of the Guard, they can tutor for Flickerwisp (this is why I also don't feel safe when Sulfuric Vortex is out since they can bounce and gain life).

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

Hey Lyle,
Why do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge against D&T? I've seen a lot of people doing this in the reports, but never understood. D&T has a lot of 1 power creatures, plus with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, Rishadan Port, and Sanctum Prelate I feel you can get stuck with cards in hand and difficulties getting them out (and difficulty getting out the bridge as well). They can also swing pump with Umezawa's Jitte to get under the bridge. They can also bounce bridge with Flickerwisp to swing for a turn, plus with Recruiter of the Guard, they can tutor for Flickerwisp (this is why I also don't feel safe when Sulfuric Vortex is out since they can bounce and gain life).

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I agree with you. Death Taxes definitely has quite a few ways of dealing with Ensnaring Bridge. Maybe this was a mistake, but I felt like Ensnaring Bridge might be better than some number of Eidolon of the Great Revel on the draw because of Aether Vial. I used to think this match-up was in our favour, but current Death and Taxes lists seems quite threatening. I'd love to hear how everyone else is sideboarding for this match-up. I'm tempted to start playing some copies of Searing Blood in addition to the four Searing Blaze.

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Originally Posted by scaryrawr

Hey Lyle,
Why do you bring in Ensnaring Bridge against D&T? I've seen a lot of people doing this in the reports, but never understood. D&T has a lot of 1 power creatures, plus with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, Rishadan Port, and Sanctum Prelate I feel you can get stuck with cards in hand and difficulties getting them out (and difficulty getting out the bridge as well). They can also swing pump with Umezawa's Jitte to get under the bridge. They can also bounce bridge with Flickerwisp to swing for a turn, plus with Recruiter of the Guard, they can tutor for Flickerwisp (this is why I also don't feel safe when Sulfuric Vortex is out since they can bounce and gain life).

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This is why I've stopped using Bridge. The only decks I see it's decent against is S&T and Reanimator. Reanimator is such a miserable match up and is a lot faster than S&T that I just want Bridge for S&T and that deck has essentially fallen off the face of this planet and now Bridge is no longer in my seventy five. Smash to Smithereens and sometimes Vortex if that's in my seventh five are what replaced Bridge. I use Needle, Smash, and my fourth Blaze to come in against D&T and take out Eidolon and PoP, in that order to combat them. Eidolon becomes too much of a liability and even though they sometimes just play out their non basics post board, I don't chance it anymore. I play against D&T a lot.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

This is why I've stopped using Bridge. The only decks I see it's decent against is S&T and Reanimator. Reanimator is such a miserable match up and is a lot faster than S&T that I just want Bridge for S&T and that deck has essentially fallen off the face of this planet and now Bridge is no longer in my seventy five. Smash to Smithereens and sometimes Vortex if that's in my seventh five are what replaced Bridge. I use Needle, Smash, and my fourth Blaze to come in against D&T and take out Eidolon and PoP, in that order to combat them. Eidolon becomes too much of a liability and even though they sometimes just play out their non basics post board, I don't chance it anymore. I play against D&T a lot.

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I actually just re-added Bridge to my side lol. Lands was really popular, then I added it, and the Lands players disappeared (Price is already amazing here, but sometimes they can combo pretty quick, but they don't seem to be able to easily deal with Bridge).

It also seems useful against Eldrazi, since they can wreck our hand with Thought-Knot Seer. But I've found Price and Smashes tend to be enough here.

Show&Tell seems to be making a comeback (and a couple appeared at my local weekly), which is the other reason I added it back, I also took out Pyrostatic Pillars from my side since Storm seems to be losing popularity (at least in my local meta), and added in Pyroblasts again. I haven't played since the switch though, so I'm not sure if this is a mistake yet. I'm hoping it works well also with the increase in BUG and True-Name Nemesis making a comeback as well.

Reanimator I bring in bridge, but I feel it's mostly going to be a dead card, especially if they get Iona, Shield of Emeria... It tends to be Grafdigger's Cage and Faerie Macabre being the shining stars in the matchup. I feel that the meta is shifting right now to correct for how out of control RB Reanimator has gotten over the last couple months, as well as BUG doing so well with Leovold, Emissary of Trest.

@Lyle, my strategy against D&T is a little weird. I tend to try to keep a land heavier hand (3-4 lands I hope for mostly fetches since I don't want to flood too badly, but I want to flood enough to not care about Rishadan Port or Thalia too much). I also bring in just smashes and blaze effects. I'll run 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex in my 75 and bring those in. I don't actually kill Thalia unless I have Goblin Guides (with Monastery Swiftspear I just prowess trigger damage to the face, so if they block the lose it or have to bounce it). Smashes I really like to save in hand for Umezawa's Jitte or Batterskull, but will take out an early game Aether Vial, later game Vial's I don't care about. I also feel keeping Grim Lavamancer active is the biggest thing for control creatures on the board. Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic are the 2 creatures that really have to go immediately, and if they can hard cast and equip, that's when everything has to start going in response to them trying to the equip. I'll also Fireblast the Batterskull token if I feel I can recover from it, or block Lavamancer my own guys to prevent life gain or Jitte counters. Usually it doesn't come to the extreme bits in the last part.

Heya Lyle, just read your list and I am wondering:
You don't play sulfuric vortex MD and only advocate for it as a SD choice over graveyard hate.

I find it really hard to win over miracle / maverick / jitte decks without a sulfuric vortex, and following Reddeckwinning trend's I now play 3 MD.

It happens to also help a lot against burn hate (which is coming back here and then) like Kor firewalker or warmth.

How do you cut it without this option? You rely entirely on Ensnaring bridge? But even then, the synergy between the 2 cards seems great to me.

I'm really interested in your reasoning and gameplans !

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by schtormy

Heya Lyle, just read your list and I am wondering:
You don't play sulfuric vortex MD and only advocate for it as a SD choice over graveyard hate.

I find it really hard to win over miracle / maverick / jitte decks without a sulfuric vortex, and following Reddeckwinning trend's I now play 3 MD.

It happens to also help a lot against burn hate (which is coming back here and then) like Kor firewalker or warmth.

How do you cut it without this option? You rely entirely on Ensnaring bridge? But even then, the synergy between the 2 cards seems great to me.

I'm really interested in your reasoning and gameplans !

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

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Hey, schtormy,

Thanks for reading my post. Don't get me wrong, I love Sulfuric Vortex, but I feel like whether I run it main-deck or in the sideboard, or not at all, is dependent on the meta-game. Of course if you're encountering Warmth and Kor Firewalker regularly, by all means, play Sulfuric Vortex. That being said, I don't think Sulfuric Vortex is as good as it used to be against Miracles since they started playing Monastery Mentor, both because of the clock presented by Monastery Mentor and the increased amount of 3 CMC spells to flip with Counterbalance (also Snapcaster Mage and Wear // Tear can be gross). I recognize that stopping the life gain from Deathrite Shaman and equipment can be very important, but most of these decks are pretty well equipped to deal with a card like Sulfuric Vortex (Deathrite Shaman decks have Abrupt Decay and Maverick has Qasali Pridemage). Sulfuric Vortex does seem okay against Death & Taxes though. Locally, I have started seeing quite a bit of Death & Taxes, so to be honest, I'll probably start playing a couple Sulfuric Vortex again.

Have y'all seen Patrick Sullivan's recent list from the SCG Team Constructed Open? I love it!

I've been a very similar build as Sullivan for a while now. 18x mountains and flame rift/searing blood depending on the anticipated meta. It has been performing very well for myself.

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Originally Posted by scottpou

I've been a very similar build as Sullivan for a while now. 18x mountains and flame rift/searing blood depending on the anticipated meta. It has been performing very well for myself.

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I did something similar with 2 Sulfuric Vortex in place of the 2 Mountains. My meta has been very Storm/Sneak&Show heavy, and I've missed playing Flame Rift (I thought it was Eidolon that didn't pair so well with it, but when you're not fetching, the 2 off of Eidolon means even less).

I went 2-2 beating RUG Delver and BUG Aluren. I lost to Storm and Sneak&Show.

I don't think his 20 Mountain list was a meta call or anything though, I think he just did the open to have fun with some friends before having his kid. On twitter it sounded like he's planning on quitting/stepping away from playing magic for a while, and hasn't been too active in tournaments anyways.

That said though, I've seen a lot of MTGO reports on mtgtop8 where people have been going 5-0 with his exact list.

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Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins

Hey, schtormy,

Thanks for reading my post. Don't get me wrong, I love Sulfuric Vortex, but I feel like whether I run it main-deck or in the sideboard, or not at all, is dependent on the meta-game. Of course if you're encountering Warmth and Kor Firewalker regularly, by all means, play Sulfuric Vortex. That being said, I don't think Sulfuric Vortex is as good as it used to be against Miracles since they started playing Monastery Mentor, both because of the clock presented by Monastery Mentor and the increased amount of 3 CMC spells to flip with Counterbalance (also Snapcaster Mage and Wear // Tear can be gross). I recognize that stopping the life gain from Deathrite Shaman and equipment can be very important, but most of these decks are pretty well equipped to deal with a card like Sulfuric Vortex (Deathrite Shaman decks have Abrupt Decay and Maverick has Qasali Pridemage). Sulfuric Vortex does seem okay against Death & Taxes though. Locally, I have started seeing quite a bit of Death & Taxes, so to be honest, I'll probably start playing a couple Sulfuric Vortex again.

Have y'all seen Patrick Sullivan's recent list from the SCG Team Constructed Open? I love it!

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It makes perfect sense, thank you for your answer.

Due to the amount of DnT around here I may still include it, but I admit that Sullivan's new deck is also tempting.

Quite to the point. Although lately with the amount of creatures in the meta I tend to trim down monastery swiftspear.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought.

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Does it answer Chalice@1?

Smash to Smithereens is still the better card.

p.s. SFM is not an artifact, Nullrod does't affect SFM putting a batterskull into play.

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Originally Posted by Tokugawa

Does it answer Chalice@1?

Smash to Smithereens is still the better card.

p.s. SFM is not an artifact, Nullrod does't affect SFM putting a batterskull into play.

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I'm not sure if you're thick or didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say as a replacement to Smash, I said as a more universal answer to things that Needle doesn't tag, and I also didn't say remove Needle completely.

Question. What cards does Burn typically run in its sideboard nowadays? I've built a somewhat standard list but haven't acquired any sideboard cards yet. Obviously, the exact 15 should probably be tailored to the meta I'm going to be facing, but I'd just like to ask what cards should be in my pool of "this card could potentially end up in my 15 card sideboard depending on what decks I expect".

For reference, this is the mainboard list I'm running.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Monsatery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
1 Sulfuric Vortex

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain

In terms of cards that could be potentially be nice to have and could make their way into a sideboard, I currently have two Red Elemental Blast, a Smash to Smithereens, two extra Sulfuric Vortex, two extra Grim Lavamancer, and an extra Searing Blaze.

I'm definitely going to pick up a playset of Exquisite Firecraft soon, since I heard the card is great in the Miracles matchup, and I'm planning on picking up two more Smash to Smithereens as well (do I need a fourth copy, or is x3 in the board fine?).

Other than that, what other cards should I look towards acquiring? I see Pyrostatic Pillar in a good number of lists. What decks is that good against (besides Storm, which seems obvious)? Also, what is currently seen as the best graveyard hate card? Is it Leyline of the Void? Relic of Progenitus? Faerie Macabre?

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

I'm not sure if you're thick or didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say as a replacement to Smash, I said as a more universal answer to things that Needle doesn't tag, and I also didn't say remove Needle completely.

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Third-party opinion: Your original post wasn't clear, and your reply was abrasive. Please try to be nice.

You said: "Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought."

In the portion I've bolded, you perhaps meant "as a supplement" or "as a combination," but the wording of your first sentence is ambiguous. Also, Tokugawa's point is correct about Null Rod not stopping Stoneforge Mystic cheating in the Batterskull.

I'm a big fan of Null Rod in general, but I wouldn't play the card in this deck. The flexibility you describe isn't worth it, in my opinion. If you are boarding out burn spells or creatures that are effectively burn spells, then your replacement ought to be more impactful than those spells would've been. The only decks I can think of that Null Rod completely shuts down are Affinity and MUD.

@silly: Your sideboard cards should be based on what you expect to play against and what you would be naturally weak against. Typically, those are decks that are faster than your average goldfish kill of Turn 4. The common elements of a Burn sideboard are usually graveyard hate, Storm hate, and then measures for the specific non-combo cards that hamper your game plan, such as Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Umezawa's Jitte, and Batterskull. The emergence of Black-Red Reanimator has caused a general shift to Leyline of the Void, Faerie Macabre, and Surgical Extraction, but if that deck isn't represented in your area, then Relic of Progenitus might be better (great against Tarmogoyfs and Gurmag Anglers). I've also seen plenty of Burn players running Grafdigger's Cage instead of some of those other picks. I don't think you need a full playset of Smash to Smithereens, but you'll need to determine what decks you're likely to face. Pyrostatic Pillar is good against any deck that casts a lot of spells, and it's also pretty good against cantrip decks when you're on the play.

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Originally Posted by ESG

Third-party opinion: Your original post wasn't clear, and your reply was abrasive. Please try to be nice.

You said: "Here's a wild thought, has anyone thought about or tried Null Rod in the side as a replacement to Needle and artifact hate? I'm not saying completely remove artifact hate, but it allows variety to be used. It answers Top, Batterskull, Jitte, LED, Petal, Vial, and various other artifacts. Just a thought."

In the portion I've bolded, you perhaps meant "as a supplement" or "as a combination," but the wording of your first sentence is ambiguous. Also, Tokugawa's point is correct about Null Rod not stopping Stoneforge Mystic cheating in the Batterskull.

I'm a big fan of Null Rod in general, but I wouldn't play the card in this deck. The flexibility you describe isn't worth it, in my opinion. If you are boarding out burn spells or creatures that are effectively burn spells, then your replacement ought to be more impactful than those spells would've been. The only decks I can think of that Null Rod completely shuts down are Affinity and MUD.

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I'll try to be clearer in my posts. My assumption that people read beyond a single sentence was wrong.

I do understand that SFM cheats in Batterskull and Rod doesn't stop her from activating. I'm not an idiot, so pointing out blatant obviousness is insulting to a person's intelligence which is why I lashed out. What Rod stops is the problem of it bouncing away from a Smash spell on it. What SFM player gets Batterskull against Burn when they can't already pay the mana for it? Turn two SFM into Batterskull is a sure way to get stranded with a card in hand they can't land for a few turns.

But you're probably right. Going through interactions in my head, Rod comes in at the same speed as Eidolon and Needle names planeswalkers and Top. It's a cute play, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

But you're probably right. Going through interactions in my head, Rod comes in at the same speed as Eidolon and Needle names planeswalkers and Top. It's a cute play, I guess.

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I don't run Needle or Rod in the side board. I feel there's not too many things I care about naming as Burn that either a Searing effect or Smash effect doesn't answer well. The Planeswalkers I'm aware of also don't usually demand that much attention (or if it does, hopefully some creature swings or Bolts are good enough without loosing too much throughput). I've ran it in Delver side boards, and it wrecks Affinity which is awesome. I feel against Miracles is where it helps most, but I feel that match up is already favored post side board.

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Originally Posted by Silly

In terms of cards that could be potentially be nice to have and could make their way into a sideboard, I currently have two Red Elemental Blast, a Smash to Smithereens, two extra Sulfuric Vortex, two extra Grim Lavamancer, and an extra Searing Blaze.

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So, what others have said about side board being for the meta... BUT!

* Pyroblast > Red Elemental Blast in my opinion, you can target anything with a Pyroblast (yes, misdirect and divert exist, but eh), which allows for Prowess triggers on Monastery Swiftspear. Other than that, I'm not a big fan of running the Pyroblast effects though, but they do create some fun lines you can take, and let you fight Show and Tell a bit more
* Grim Lavamancer - I don't feel it's worth having more in the side (personal opinion), I'd rather have more Searing effects if I want more creature hate.

* Grafdigger's Cage I feel is really important to run since it can stop reanimator as well as limits how ANT can go off.
* Faerie Macabre or Surgical Extraction I feel is also good for those match ups, and Surgical pairs well with Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast when I ran Pyroblast, it's nice to hit a Counterbalance and then extract it so you don't have to worry about it anymore. It's also nifty for Dredge, Lands, Loam, etc. Faerie is nice because it gets around Chancellor of the Annex triggers.
* Exquisite Firecraft I feel is a must, I run between 3-4 in the side.
* Pyrostatic Pillar is also really good against Storm (TES & ANT), as well as other decks that cantrip a ton.
* Ensnaring Bridge I feel is also a good card, but I tend to put other things in it's slot depending how I feel the meta is going to be.

Curious, what sideboard cards did you finally settle to? I've never been really happy with Needle.

I'm a new burn player, the deck is very nice but i have always the feeling that every player that have 3-4 leyline of sancity in the sideboard can win so easy against burn, noone have try to put an answer against leyline of sanctity (like destructive revelery), if no, how do you sideboard against a deck with leylines?

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Originally Posted by Thorgils

I'm a new burn player, the deck is very nice but i have always the feeling that every player that have 3-4 leyline of sancity in the sideboard can win so easy against burn, noone have try to put an answer against leyline of sanctity (like destructive revelery), if no, how do you sideboard against a deck with leylines?

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In Legacy, Burn is not as popular as in Modern. If a player consumes 3-4 slots on Leylines, his sidebord may have more poor performance against other matchups.

If an answer to Leylines is really really needed, Taiga + Destructive revelery may be acceptable.