Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scott
Forgive the Nic Fit novice question: I'm working from a GBw list with Deeds, and I assume Explorers are boarded out against certain decks with basics that can use the ramp. The list has
Strangleroot Geist (I know, I know), so I won't be left completely wanting for Cabal Therapy fuel, but I'm wondering if the deck is hampered by the loss of ramp in these post board games. I'd stick DRS in there but I'm not loving the idea of multiple Deeds with that, especially when some of the matchups in which I'm guessing you'd remove Explorer, like D&T, Elves, Merfolk, and Maverick, want Deed. What's the protocol or tech?
Generally, there's only a few decks that play lots of basics, and of those, most are blue. Examples are Miracles, some Blade control decks, and maybe Painter and Merfolk. Of those, almost all of them are blue, so Carpet of Flowers swaps in for Veteran Explorer in most of those situations. Against Painter, you want to colour fix with your Veterans to counteract their Moon effects. The only time when you don't is a non-blue basic heavy deck. Examples would be Pox, Nic Fit mirror, Elves, DnT, Burn, and a homebrew.
Against DnT, you getting more lands is fine since it mitigates Rishadan Port and Wasteland effects and you casting bombs outclocks their small creatures, even if they cast a whole whack of them with the extra mana; Against Elves, you want to ramp into more removal/sweepers since they'll either overextend into sweepers or be outclassed by the creatures you'll be playing; Against Pox you want more lands so their land destruction isn't as effective; Against Burn you want to be able to start ripping them up with Thragtusk and Siege Rhino, and them blowing their load in 5 turns or 2 doesn't matter since they run out of gas so fast; the Mirror is the hardest one, I think. I always board out the Veterans, and here's why. If my opponent does have them in his deck, I get the benefit while not having to run it, therefore giving me more sideboard slots. If neither of us run it, we're at least even in acceleration and then playskill and deck construction/knowledge matter more, so generally, I win there as well.
Does this maybe answer your question? Basically, even though some decks play basics and CAN accelerate, your deck is DESIGNED to accelerate into huge bombs which most decks cannot answer.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Went to local tournament yesterday which I've talked about, and went 2:2.Lost first two matches against GU Infect and Reanimator, and beat down Dredge 2:1, and Merfolk 2:0. Not a bad start with Two Towers, but few missplays, and horrible topdecks were enough to lose entry to Top4. And a ton of Khans packs!
My sideboard was:
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Dread of Night
2x Engineered Plague
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Obstinate Baloth
I was still tired from drinking the night before, and didn't really know what metagame was. And there they were: 2x Merfolk, MonoW aggro, Shardless BUG, 2x Dredge, Pox, Reanimator, Infect and my Two Towers.
First round - GU Infect
I was thinking that he would play Shardless BUG. And that was mistake that costed me not putting two Melira's in the sideboard. First match I've 2x Cabal Therapy and flashbacked Explorer. And all I drawed was lands, and land, and land, and a...Siege Rhino. Not really good against 2x flying Inkmoth Nexus going for lethal. Second match I've managed to discard and killed everything, but one pump spell and Berserk after topdecking Brainstorm was not good start for me at all.
Second Round - UB Reanimator
First round Scooze and DRShaman were enough to him to scoop. I've sideboarded in every gravehate and still didn't drawed a single one in match 2 and 3. Griselbrand after Show and Tell (which he sideboarded in) were a pain in the ass. Well, after that match, no Top4 for me.
Third round - Dredge
First match was great. Therapy, Veteran, Zenith for SCooze and GG. Second match, after bringing in gravehate, went very horrible. Only basics in hand, and double costed spells. Even a mulligan was a horrible one. Third round was a beast. I've ramped into 11 lands by turn 5. Reccuring Nightmare's effect three times a turn were enough to loop Witness to keep him from crucial cards. And to shuffle my deck and Top for win condition. Then a Rhino loop got online and GG.
Fourth round - Merfolk
Starting hand was a beast. 3x Therapies, Forest, Swamp, VExplorer and Abrupt Decay. Then topdeck mode got on and 2 Rhinos and Deed were enough to go for the win. Sided in 2x Tutors and 2x Plagues. Second match startng hand was great. Basics, fetch, Plague, Witness and Decay. After a few turns on getting some damage from his creatures, Sigarda slowed him a few turns. Enough for a SDToped Deed to clear the field. Volrath's Stronghold brought back the Witness and Plague which was enough to get three turns for Sigarda kill.
After all, I'm happy about how it all went. Only thing I was pissed about was topdecking lands in first two rounds, against Infect and Reanimator. Some cards I didn't played at all, or never draw them (or Zenith them). And those were : Golgari Charm, Thrun, Thragtusk, Maelstrom Pulse. I'm thinking of getting them out, and put something else to test.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Generally, there's only a few decks that play lots of basics, and of those, most are blue. Examples are Miracles, some Blade control decks, and maybe Painter and Merfolk. Of those, almost all of them are blue, so Carpet of Flowers swaps in for Veteran Explorer in most of those situations. Against Painter, you want to colour fix with your Veterans to counteract their Moon effects. The only time when you don't is a non-blue basic heavy deck. Examples would be Pox, Nic Fit mirror, Elves, DnT, Burn, and a homebrew.
Against DnT, you getting more lands is fine since it mitigates Rishadan Port and Wasteland effects and you casting bombs outclocks their small creatures, even if they cast a whole whack of them with the extra mana; Against Elves, you want to ramp into more removal/sweepers since they'll either overextend into sweepers or be outclassed by the creatures you'll be playing; Against Pox you want more lands so their land destruction isn't as effective; Against Burn you want to be able to start ripping them up with Thragtusk and Siege Rhino, and them blowing their load in 5 turns or 2 doesn't matter since they run out of gas so fast; the Mirror is the hardest one, I think. I always board out the Veterans, and here's why. If my opponent does have them in his deck, I get the benefit while not having to run it, therefore giving me more sideboard slots. If neither of us run it, we're at least even in acceleration and then playskill and deck construction/knowledge matter more, so generally, I win there as well.
Does this maybe answer your question? Basically, even though some decks play basics and CAN accelerate, your deck is DESIGNED to accelerate into huge bombs which most decks cannot answer.
Thanks for the insight. That makes sense; even though parts of the primer mention boarding out Explorer against some decks that can utilize basics, I had considered the thought that you're just giving them lands, and not extra threats/answers, so acceleration into something like a Toxic Deluge against an extended opponent wouldn't be a horrible thing. Like you said, Nic Fit's bombs are bigger than what most other decks can offer. Sound reasoning with regards to D&T, Burn, Pox, and the mirror too.
Assuming I have three Deeds, would you still recommend swapping Explorers for Carpet of Flower against blue decks with basics? I suppose it's possible that you will have already taken advantage of acceleration by the time your Carpet's blown up, but in testing, I find myself using lots of mana even late game. I like the idea of using Choke instead in that situation, to mitigate what you've given them in a similar way to how sweepers operate, but I don't know if that's been found to be effective.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Well, both Choke and Carpet are likely more than fine. Some people swear by Choke, and I've had much success with Carpet. I don't think you'd be wrong to try Choke. However, Carpet is not a threat to Miracles, whereas Choke is somewhat of a threat, as as you said, less likely to get blown out by Deed. I really didn't like Choke against Delver since it always ended up getting Pierced, and it (Carpet) prevents you from getting Dazed/Pierced out of the game when you're trying to set up.
TL:DR Choke is a good card too, and likely better against Miracles, but you'll be a whole ton slower since you'll have zero acceleration in the deck.
-Matt
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
For me Carpet > Choke because I am running ScapeWish and not Junk variant.
Against blue combo decks its imperative to be able to cast an early Slaughter Games. You can power out a T2 Slaughter games with a carpet in play and will save you a ton of games.
Against Miracles, Carpet is not as relevant as there isn't a crazy need for rushing out a slaughter games. Against Miracles you basically want to just play threat after threat (or thrun if you are running thrun) and have them respond to each separate threat. So never over-extend as each of your threats is able to close the game out against them.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Well, both Choke and Carpet are likely more than fine. Some people swear by Choke, and I've had much success with Carpet. I don't think you'd be wrong to try Choke. However, Carpet is not a threat to Miracles, whereas Choke is somewhat of a threat, as as you said, less likely to get blown out by Deed. I really didn't like Choke against Delver since it always ended up getting Pierced, and it (Carpet) prevents you from getting Dazed/Pierced out of the game when you're trying to set up.
TL:DR Choke is a good card too, and likely better against Miracles, but you'll be a whole ton slower since you'll have zero acceleration in the deck.
-Matt
I was more thinking that Delver decks don't have basics so wouldn't require any Explorer/Carpet/Choke switching unless it happened to be in the SB and there was room, and that against stuff like Miracles and Blade Control, you'd keep in the Explorers while adding Choke, instead of making a swap, so you still had ramp and mitigated their ramp, if that makes sense.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scott
I was more thinking that Delver decks don't have basics so wouldn't require any Explorer/Carpet/Choke switching unless it happened to be in the SB and there was room, and that against stuff like Miracles and Blade Control, you'd keep in the Explorers while adding Choke, instead of making a swap, so you still had ramp and mitigated their ramp, if that makes sense.
I think you might underestimate how well Miracles can function under a Choke. If you catch them tapped out, it's absolute misery for them, sure. But, most of the time, they just Top with Plains and run that as long as possible while making land drops and keeping them untapped. Recall they can still pressure with Termini and STP without tapping down any blue sources. If the basics came into play tapped I'd agree with you, but then this would be a totally different deck ;)
I'll talk to Philipp and see what he thinks, but from our previous conversations, Choke was bad but not game over. Tsunami/Gotterdammerung are pretty game over for that deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I tried a Varient of Junk this past Saturday. Legend Fit...sort of. Took out the SFM(3 SFm, jitte, batterskull) package for the new Sidsi, Dromoka , tasigur, fierce empath, sun titan, sylvan safekeeper and Titania. Also moved the Deluge to the board (which was missed). Tried out Runed Halo x 2 (which was good) and Display of Dominance (almost killed a Jace-got countered)
Went 2-3. Beat Dredge in, Lost to Fish in 3, Lost to Miracles in 2, Beat Spanish Inquition in 2 (2nd game on a mull to 4), Lost to Reanimator in 2.
Thoughts were: Dromoka was nice. The rest were meh. I like Tasigur but this isn't the deck for it. Sidisi gets more value with Rectors.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Does anyone have any interest or experience porting leyline/helm combo in nic fit. I've been trying for years in stompy shells and lands shells but not nic fit yet.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Dear lord, Thrun is such a freaking tank.
-Matt
Owh yes, he is...
http://s11.postimg.org/gwx6pbweb/20150409_052535.jpg
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@sdematt
I have been loving at your Junk Nic Fit List and was wondering how you side board.
Ideally I wanted to know your rough ideas about going against miracles, delver (RUG, BUR, and UWR), Death and Taxes, Elves, and Combo (Storm, Reanimator, and Sneak and Show).
Thank you for the help.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Sorry for the late reply, school is murder.
So, my current list:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
You may notice some changes so let me explain that part first. I got some time to watch someone else play the deck at the Legacy Classic that I hosted this past weekend (he's on here, Kyle). I noticed 23 lands might be just a tad too many, so I've cut it for another pieces of manipulation: Sylvan. Kyle was running Sylvans instead of Tops and he was getting decent mileage out of them because of all of our life gain. I think it's wrong to only play Sylvan in a Deed deck, but I think as supplemental draw, they're wonderful. I cut a Marsh Flats (the most cuttable land) for the Sylvan.
As for the board, I'm running 2 Choke/2 Carpet of Flowers split. Choke did real work for Kyle as he ran 3 Choke over 3 Carpet, it was ballbusting in the Miracles and Stoneblade matchups. I still think Carpet is truly an all start in the Delver matchups, moreso than Choke. I cut a Cranial Extraction for it, since two was a bit of a stretch anyway and it doesn't play well with Teeg which is coming in for all of those matchups anyway.
So, for sideboard, I don't have a guide yet since I don't have enough hours in with the deck (I usually like to play 500+ matches before I get really set on a guide/list and I'm not quite there yet) but I'll try to remember what I'm normally doing now.
Miracles:
I think here you're trying to stop them from landing Jace or Entreat and killing you. Sounds simple, but you're the disruptive deck and you need to stop Top, stick your evasive threats and go to town.
What's bad here? Path is terrible, Veteran is garbage. Thrun and Sigarda are your all-stars, and Safekeeper does real work with Teeg.
-3 Path, -4 Veteran Explorer
+2 Choke, +1 Cranial Extraction, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Krosan Grip.
I think you could argue to bring in Thoughtseizes on the play to grab Tops, but they become dead draws in the late game. Decay isn't great, but killing Tops/CB's or blockers seems better than the dead Thoughtseizes, but know that Decay isn't wonderful. Carpet is also good to come in, but know that it's only to accelerate you and doesn't affect their game plan at all. In this matchup, protect a Teeg, lay a Deed to prevent Entreat, and keep Jace off the table. Leverage Thrun/Sigarda when you can.
Death and Taxes
You're the control deck. Kill everything all the time, don't get your mana locked out. Veteran is goof for both players, but your bombs are much, much better. Their only answer to Siege Rhino is STP, and they have no Snapcaster. Watch out for Revoker on Deed. Thalia can slow down your GSZs with Ports enough so that you cannot get online. Murder Thalia and go into Rhinos if you're shorter on mana, Sigarda if you do have the mana. They cannot beat Sigarda and Sigarda beats Batterskull, which is one of the few cards that can make your life a little difficult. I think the Recurring Nightmare loop is easily disrupted here, so don't bother.
-1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Recurring Nightmare
+1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Golgari Charm
I think you can argue to bring in Grip for Equipment or Thoughtseizes to grab stuff like Vial. I think the card you truly fear is Cataclysm, but as long as you have one fatty online, you should be fine. You could bring in Teeg to prevent Cataclysm or Batterskull from being hard cast.
RUG Delver
I'd say it's likely one of your greatest matchups. Just don't get Dazed or Stifled out of the game. Cabal Therapy should always try to hit Stifle or Force of Will. Stifle hits your Deeds, Rhino triggers, and Veteran triggers. Clear that shit and you cannot lose, basically. Snap fetches on their upkeep if you can. Beware possible Submerges or Mind Harness.
-1 Diabolic Intent, -1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Top
+2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Deluge
Again, you can argue to bring in Choke, but I just don't know if you REALLY need it.
BUG Delver
They don't play Stifle, so you're way ahead. They do play Hymn and Liliana, which are pains. This deck tends to extend more with Deathrite, so your X-for-1's with Deed are that much better. Fetch for basics even if you have Vet and you should be fine. You can lose here, so be careful, but Tasigur is likely the card you're pretty worried about since your only "out" is Path and Pulse and Rhino doesn't trade with him. Ooze is VERY good in this matchup.
-1 Diabolic Intent, -1 Garruk Relentless
+2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Deluge
Patriot Delver
Likely the harder Delver matchup since they can play Stifles and STP, and have access to Meddling Mage/Containment Priest/Jace out of the board. Easily beatable in regular combat since TNN is a bit of a joke. Deed is god here. Find out if they're playing Stifle and fetch appropriately. Rhino goes very far in this matchup. Become the control deck, don't lose to Bolt + TNN. Slam Rhino after Rhino. Since they're more of a control deck, Choke is more of a consideration.
-1 Diabolic Intent, -1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Pulse, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Ooze
+2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Deluge, +1 Golgari Charm, +2 Choke
Elves
Harder matchup because they're a creature based combo deck and we have almost no pressure. The matchup actually isn't superb because of it. Stop Natural Order from killing you, but you need multiple sweepers to get anywhere in this matchup. They can put way more power on board and kill much faster.
-1 Sigarda, -1 Thrun, -1 Top, -1 Garruk, -1 Safekeeper, -1 Rhino, -1 Recurring Nightmare
+1 Deluge, +2 Teeg, +1 Charm, +3 Thoughtseize
Reanimator
You have access to maindeck Scooze and Deathrite with some disruption. Not bad! Obviously they can just nut you, so you need to disrupt them. It's not a truly great matchup, but certainly winnable. Pathing Griselbrand is pretty saucy. Watch out for Show and Tell. This matchup gets better if you're playing Priest in the sideboard, of course. Decay can be dead, but it's very live if they're on the Pithing Needle plan.
-1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Sylvan Library, -3 Deed, -1 Phyrexian Tower, -1 Thrun
+3 Thoughtseize, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Extirpate, +2 Carpet of Flowers (allows you to keep mana open for Scooze/Extirpate)
Storm
Not a great matchup. You're a creature control deck with no pressure. Not a great matchup unless you're packing more hate slots. Dryad Militant is good, as is Mindbreak Trap/Chant/etc.
-3 Path, -1 Garruk, -1 Sigarda, -1 Thrun, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Siege Rhino, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -2 Veteran Explorer
+3 Thoughtseize, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Surgical, +1 Extirpate, +1 Cranial Extraction, +1 Golgari Charm
OmniTell
Stop them from Show and Telling. If they do, don't let them do stuff with Omni :P
-3 Path, -3 Decay, -1 Garruk, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -2 Rhino, -4 Veteran Explorer
+1 Grip, +1 Surgical, +1 Extirpate, +2 Teeg, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Charm, +1 Cranial Extraction (usually for Wish or Omni), +2 Choke, +2 Carpet of Flowers
Show and Tell
Stop them from Sneak Attacking, since you can sometimes handle the fatty if they drop it off Show and Tell itself. Teeg is an all start as long as you can keep them off of Show and Tell. Watch out for Pyroclasm.
-3 Decay, -1 Garruk, -1 Nightmare, -1 Thrun, -1 Safekeeper, -1 Ooze, -3 Deed, -2 Veteran Explorer
+1 Grip, +1 Surgical, +1 Extirpate, +2 Teeg, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Charm, +1 Cranial Extraction (usually for Sneak or Emrakul, depending), +2 Choke, +2 Carpet of Flowers
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
How valuable have you found Dromoka's "can't cast spells during your turn" ability? Why do you feel this card is such an asset?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thotcrime
How valuable have you found Dromoka's "can't cast spells during your turn" ability? Why do you feel this card is such an asset?
Seems like Sigarda is just better...
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Thotcrime: The "can't cast spells during your turn" is not THAT relevant, but it did messed up a bit against some Miracle players that did not pay attention preventing EOOT Terminus or Entreat.
@Blastoderm: The card does not compete with Sigarda at all. I'm playing both. But the deck needs a huge lifelink flying blocker since racing your opponent DOES matter from time to time especially against Blade.decks & Tempo with reach and this is where the deck was lacking since I am not playing Rhino. Not to mention that the "cannot be countered" ability has proven to be quite useful a couple of times. We don't draw cards (just filtering through Sensei) and being able to slam another big dude (in addition to Thrun) was often a matter of life or death.
@Sdematt: I guess Sigarda 2.0 would be better but we cannot have it all.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Went to a local legacy event today, and went 2-2 again. I was playing with sdmatt's last list. It's very fun to play really. Gravehate, Dread of Nights, Plagues, 2x Meliras, etc...
Round one: Dredge with LED
Lost game one because he was too fast. Game two SCooze got the game. Game three was really tight. Relic was blown by Nature's Claim. Therapy revealed two more Claimes. I was dead in three turns.
Round two: Infect
Game one was lost on his third turn with Berserk on a 6/7 Inkmoth Nexus. Game two&three Melira got the game. 2:1 for me!
Round three: Grixis goodstuff
He lost first two matches and conceded to me do so I could get into Top4.
Round four: Merfolk
Game one double Therapies and Siege Rhino&RecNightmare won the game. Game two&three were horrible. Mana flood all the way. One more turn in a game three lategame And 10 cards could be dead. But, no way. He ''Zerg rushed'' me. :D Lost 1:2. Last time I've won against him 2:0. Well, payback time today. :D
Worst cards today were Garruk Relentless, Sylvan Safekeeper and Diabolic Invent.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Split the Finals of a small legacy for a Savannah and some store credit today.
Round 1: Manaless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2 was good enough. Game 2. Dryad Miltant turn 1, containment priest turn 2. That was enough
Round 2: Grixis Angler (delver + pyro)
Game 1: Early removal into GSZ for 4 earns the scoop. Game 2: Wasting my black source keeps me off the decay and deluge in my hand. Game 3: G. Charm gets a 2 for 1. Thrun and batterskull are too much for the zombie fish.
Round 3: Infect
Game 1: Opening hand thoughtseize takes the turn two away from him. Active Jitte cleans up the rest. Game 2: Double therapy (blind hit the first one) into extripating the Invigorate which I took with the second. Active Jitte cleans the rest.
Round 4: ID
Top 4: Manless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2. Game 2: Ooze turn 2.
And split. Not a bad day.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
Split the Finals of a small legacy for a Savannah and some store credit today.
Round 1: Manaless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2 was good enough. Game 2. Dryad Miltant turn 1, containment priest turn 2. That was enough
Round 2: Grixis Angler (delver + pyro)
Game 1: Early removal into GSZ for 4 earns the scoop. Game 2: Wasting my black source keeps me off the decay and deluge in my hand. Game 3: G. Charm gets a 2 for 1. Thrun and batterskull are too much for the zombie fish.
Round 3: Infect
Game 1: Opening hand thoughtseize takes the turn two away from him. Active Jitte cleans up the rest. Game 2: Double therapy (blind hit the first one) into extripating the Invigorate which I took with the second. Active Jitte cleans the rest.
Round 4: ID
Top 4: Manless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2. Game 2: Ooze turn 2.
And split. Not a bad day.
Can you post your decklist please? :D
