[Deck] Turbo Depths

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Originally Posted by adrieng

This is a wrong sideeboard plan for miracle ; knowing you have only 4 decay (if you bring 4 decay+ 3 krosan grip maybe I'ld side them out), keeping the counterbalance is very important, there are so many situtations where they will have more CB than you have decay and win from there. Also if CB get answered by decay that's fine their blood moon/mentor will then win form there.

The miracle player has to leave one terminus one swords some snappy some jace ; some counterspells. The miracle player has to keep CB in ; it is so game winning when you don't have your decay. I would say CB is as frightning as blood moon in the matchup. It just says if you don't have decay or I have more CB than you have decay you'll likely won't cast anymore spells.

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To each their own.. I am not a Miracles player, and probably had less than 10 matches in with it before we started testing, but know Depths inside and out. Personally, the difference between Moon and Counterbalance is that Moon can end the game on the spot... which makes it much scarier. You generally have time to dig to an answer for Counterbalance, but you need that same answer + black source + green source to answer Moon - that is a very difficult three things to put together when ESG's and Petals are among the primary cuts many Depths players make for sideboard games. The Depths combo naturally goes through counterbalance and some of the key cards to counter have oddball casting costs like 7 for NOTW, 3/4 for various sideboard special cards, or are flat out difficult or impossible to counter (Grip/Decay). A lot of Depths players are boarding out some number of 1 drops (discard/Crops) for higher cc cards anyway making the counter/top lock slightly less daunting. I've won a ton of games against Miracles after counterbalance resolved without Decay. In this matchup (from the miracles side), I prefer to maximize the number of cards that interact early or flat out win the game. Counterbalance is fairly soft without Top, and Depths does a fairly good job of keeping the combo off the table between discard, Decay/Grip, Needles on Top, and Chalices post board. The number of times in our matches where the best use for a Decay was to kill an inconsequential Clique were numerous.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

As for root maze, I haven't test it ; against which deck would you play this card ? I see it as a good remplacement for discard if it is a good card...

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I typically bring it in against fetch-heavy decks (i.e. U/R Delver, Grixis, etc.,) Miracles, Lands, Storm, fast combo and more. Against decks with a higher density of fetches and artifacts it becomes very effective. This card isn't like a static piece of hardware like Ankh of Mishra where it's got a reputation for being totally dead in the mid-game; Root Maze still has very important applications against decks like Lands and Storm where they rely on acceleration and additional resources to win games. When you strip away that ability, it becomes even more powerful. Like I said before: our deck is fast and doesn't require a heavy mana investment - or spells, at all - to win games. If we can just slow the game down to a point where we feel comfortable we're controlling the pace of it - it makes it much harder to beat. I know that it feels like it contradicts the deck's overall scheme, but the truth is you're not always going to open-hand the combo or pieces of redundancy. Some hands are perfectly keepable on their own merit and strength, which is why I feel adding lock components (much like in the same vain as Sylvan Plug) uses that to control the game - which is exactly how I crafted my sideboard.

It also completely hoses Miracles if dropped on the first turn, in that it can perform the following functions:

1. Restricts their ability to play Sensei's Divining Top off a fetch-heavy hand until turn three at the earliest.
2. Banishes the ability to EOT spin Top after fetching for a land to see fresh cards (because they can't tap the land for mana as it enters tapped and forces them to do it during their own turn.)
3. Forces Top itself to come into play tapped, so they can't tap it to Terminus our Marit Lage away. That also opens it up to - you guessed it - Abrupt Decay.
4. Severely limits resources for a Jace to hit the table. With Root Maze in play, Jace isn't hitting the table until the late game (turn five at the absolute earliest in a situation where absolutely no fetches are used, which is extremely unlikely).
5. By itself severely limits the potential for a Miracle'd Entreat the Angels churning out excess attackers or blockers. Each mana represents a token when that happens, and Maze drains the ability for Miracles to use resources to generate tokens.

Against Lands, it basically turns their entire deck into an Urza's Block theme deck where all of the lands enter the battlefield tapped (like the cycle lands). It shuts down Mox Diamond-accelerated turn one plays, nixes the Port plan and shoves Loaming out turns away. And as I mentioned previously: it forces Wasteland to enter the battlefield tapped. That means the difference between making a token and getting blown out.

Oh, and Maze of Ith or Karakas aren't stopping you the combo turn off Crop Rotation, either. All of this from a one-mana enchantment. Seems good.

So how are you supposed to beat Humility?

Just lost to it out of Legends miracles SB :(. a 20 turn clock on hexmage isnt going to cut it

Krosan Grip, if you run it, can handle Humility, assuming you don't discard it with Duress/Thoughtseize. Bitterblossom, if you run it out of the sideboard, can make it look embarrassing. Nephalia Drownyard can race it.

Other than that, we can't beat it. That's fine by me if my opponent has that card in their deck.

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Originally Posted by solnox

So how are you supposed to beat Humility?

Just lost to it out of Legends miracles SB :(. a 20 turn clock on hexmage isnt going to cut it

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it is very rare to see in miracles or any deck for that matter. And when you do its usually a 1-2 of. Its not a card you really need to plan for because you won't see it almost ever.

but Krosan grip gets this card and would be the best way to deal with it as DNSolver suggests.

Back from some testing against miracle. I tested some stuff first 4 sylvan library no top but needle ; I have found it to be good game one but after side if both gets hit by wear tear it is game lost. So it is not the way to go I think.
Second stuff I have tested it is four top main side out the needle ; here both players have access to top ; but miracle does a way better job using top.
So I think the way to go is no card selection (via library/top) and 4 needle in and more artifact targets such as cotv I have retested the mishra's factory plan and it is very good ; it is the way to go against miracle. I now play one mishra main one side. The mishra plan is good if you can answer opponents kills via mentor (decay-bomb) and entreat (ratchet bomb) mishra answers jace and then goes beatdown. Then I have done some little testing with root maze and I don't like the card, it slows down most of the time both player the same way (for my list without accelrations) and it is a dead card late game ; it doesn't affect led.
I have also tested the death and taxes matchups with massacre, but the new sanctum prelate can answers it so I play a split between massacre and not of this world in my side. Here is what I am testing but this list is not settled into stone, it might evolve.

As for people not playing cabal therapy ; it is a wrong way cabal therapy is clearly the best discard spell, but for that you have to play 3 probe and 2 khalni garden at least.
Probe is also very good with needle to know what to name and to know if you can go off.


EDIT : I am not sure yet of ratchet bomb and not sure of this list testing various things right now ; some miracle players don't play entreat but just a 3 off mentor ; it is so hard to have a good version cause they can go multiple way and wreck you against them mix of hate against jace/mentor/entreat etc...
As said negator if you expect CB they can side them out and just go with the snappy plan and inversement. If you have hate for mentor they can just entreat you or jace you.
Maybe I'll test the emmy plan.


What I know is I want a mishra in side or main ; this plan houses jace.

I think apple's list on the primer is one with the best miracle matchup but it migth have trouble against tempo.deck.

What role does Mishra's Factory serve in the matchup? Do you mean Urza's Factory (hopeful face!) ?

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Originally Posted by adrieng

As for people not playing cabal therapy ; it is a wrong way cabal therapy is clearly the best discard spell, but for that you have to play 3 probe and 2 khalni garden at least.
Probe is also very good with needle to know what to name and to know if you can go off.

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I actually disagree with this sentiment. I don't believe Cabal Therapy is the best discard spell - at least not in this deck. Since this deck predicates itself on making a fast token and clocking someone for the win, if you don't have a card like Probe early on with Therapy it becomes nothing more than an "educated guess discard spell." Thoughtseize actually takes a card from someone's hand and clears the way regardless and doesn't require a second card investment to actually 100% enforce connecting. You still get information off of Thoughtseize when you see an opponent's hand, so it's not like you're not seeing what they're playing with.

I think the argument for Probe can be somewhat valid. The problem is that while it gives the casting player information - it doesn't actually do anything else besides replace itself. The card itself can be replaced directly with a discard spell to see the opponent's hand and do one of these three things:

1. Takes a card out of their hand.
2. Gives the player casting it information about not only what's in their hand, but what to name with Needle based on archetype knowledge.
3. Clears the way for the combo to proceed.

I know a follow-up Therapy from another discard spell has merit, but I just feel that you want to be taking things out of the opposing player's hand whenever possible. Therapy by itself blind is kinda iffy, and while it's nice to be able to time your Marit Lage, the deck has other defensive mechanisms in place to ensure it's a safe bet going forward. I still feel that Duress and Thoughtseize are optimal, with Duress bettering Inquisition given the dynamic of being able to hit >CMC4 cards that aren't creatures (which we rarely care about). Probe just feels out of place in this deck, and there's just not enough back-end value with Therapy - Khalni Garden aside - to flash it back for value.

how often has CITP khalni garden affect your opening hands?

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Back from some testing against miracle. I tested some stuff first 4 sylvan library no top but needle ; I have found it to be good game one but after side if both gets hit by wear tear it is game lost. So it is not the way to go I think.
Second stuff I have tested it is four top main side out the needle ; here both players have access to top ; but miracle does a way better job using top.
So I think the way to go is no card selection (via library/top) and 4 needle in and more artifact targets such as cotv I have retested the mishra's factory plan and it is very good ; it is the way to go against miracle. I now play one mishra main one side. The mishra plan is good if you can answer opponents kills via mentor (decay-bomb) and entreat (ratchet bomb) mishra answers jace and then goes beatdown. Then I have done some little testing with root maze and I don't like the card, it slows down most of the time both player the same way (for my list without accelrations) and it is a dead card late game ; it doesn't affect led.
I have also tested the death and taxes matchups with massacre, but the new sanctum prelate can answers it so I play a split between massacre and not of this world in my side. Here is what I am testing but this list is not settled into stone, it might evolve.

As for people not playing cabal therapy ; it is a wrong way cabal therapy is clearly the best discard spell, but for that you have to play 3 probe and 2 khalni garden at least.
Probe is also very good with needle to know what to name and to know if you can go off.


// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
3 Ratchet Bomb

// 6 Creature
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 7 Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation

// 24 Land
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Khalni Garden
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Mishra's Factory

// 12 Sorcery
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void

// 6 Instant
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Not of This World

// 4 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Mishra's Factory

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Massacre

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I also disagree on Therapy. Thoughtseize is the best discard spell for this deck imo and I would run 8 copies over the next best spell (Duress, Therapy, IOK, whatever) if that was allowed. It is so easy to miss against Miracles with Therapy without a probe or prior discard spell no matter how well you know their list. As mentioned above, any discard spell in the probe slot gets you the same info regarding their hand. You basically slotted probe in the discard #6-8 slots, which reduces your ability to attack their hand consistently. Sure, some games you will get to Therapy twice off a K Garden token or Birds... but many games you will be sans any discard spell only running five. I run Brainstorm in part to increase the # of games I see a turn 1 or turn 2 discard spell, especially against combo.

As an aside, your deck had 10 black sources and 9 green sources unless you count the two copies of Birds of Paradise that needs one of the 9 green (two of which come into play tapped) to cast, then needs to live for a turn. That seems really risky to me and combined with the probes has to make your version mulligan more or keep more speculative hands. I know you can still find colored sources with map or in a worst case scenario Ghost Quarter your own land, but tutoring for colors is very slow/clunky and not where I'd want to be.

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I also disagree on Therapy. Thoughtseize is the best discard spell for this deck imo and I would run 8 copies over the next best spell (Duress, Therapy, IOK, whatever) if that was allowed. It is so easy to miss against Miracles with Therapy without a probe or prior discard spell no matter how well you know their list. As mentioned above, any discard spell in the probe slot gets you the same info regarding their hand. You basically slotted probe in the discard #6-8 slots, which reduces your ability to attack their hand consistently. Sure, some games you will get to Therapy twice off a K Garden token or Birds... but many games you will be sans any discard spell only running five. I run Brainstorm in part to increase the # of games I see a turn 1 or turn 2 discard spell, especially against combo.

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Did you test cabal therapy with 3 probe and 2 garden (and 2 bop) ? Or you just dismiss my testing by thinking therapy will miss because you didn't test it. I am quite sure you didn't test other way you wouldn' think that way, the number of time where I crop a khalni garden to have flashvack two for one is so important. Cabal therapy is so much better than classic discard versus combo and tempo. It is most of the time your only source of CA.
You have to play carefully your cabal therapy, playing the flashback before going off and so on. But cabal therapy is the thing.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Did you test cabal therapy with 3 probe and 2 garden (and 2 bop) ? Or you just dismiss my testing by thinking therapy will miss because you didn't test it. I am quite sure you didn't test other way you wouldn' think that way, the number of time where I crop a khalni garden to have flashvack two for one is so important. Cabal therapy is so much better than classic discard versus combo and tempo. It is most of the time your only source of CA.
You have to play carefully your cabal therapy, playing the flashback before going off and so on. But cabal therapy is the thing.

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I have tested Probe, Therapy, and Garden (not two copies though). Birds I have not tested since adding extra mana sources that also get swept away by a Terminus answering your token or eat a removal spell when you need the colored sources is not where I want to be. It turns on cards like Fatal Push, Bolt, etc that are usually weak or dead against us. I listed some of the issues with all three other cards above and could mention more if you would like. Using Crop Rotation into Garden is hardly a 2 for 1.. Even having seen their hand from a previous therapy isn't fool proof in a Brainstorm format. In this scenario you exchanged a discard spell and a Crop Rotation (the best spell in the deck imo) for an unknown number of cards from the opponent depending on whether the first Therapy hit and other factors (multiples of a card stuck in their hand?). To be fair, you are left over with a green source.. so the exchange is unclear. Besides, Therapy can often be card disadvantage since it can still miss on occasion even in the best case Probe/Therapy scenarios when Brainstorms are around.

Combo and tempo are already favorable match-ups, so Therapy being good there isn't the argument that would push it over the top for me. I also have doubts that reducing the density of discard spells from 8 to 5 helps there even if you sometimes get to cast one twice. You have to draw the first one for that to happen and I always want to have a turn one or turn two discard spell against combo. The guessing game on the first Therapy can also get you killed against combo if you miss.

I'm a big believer in cabal therapy, just not in conjunction with gitaxian probe. Most of the time I know what I need to hit in my opponent's hand on turn two, and if you run two therapies in addition to thoughtseize and duress (I currently run a 3/3 split, but may go to 4 ts 1 duress) you often get the probe-therapy advantage anyway. If you are thinking about or are happy with lost legacy in your sideboard, I don't know why you wouldn't run therapy as a part of the discard package.

As for k garden, I'm running a one-of dryad arbor in the main (which replaces one bayou -- currently on 2 bayou 4 verdant one d arbor). In recent matches this has been absolutely necessary -- not to flash back therapy, but to have a potentially uncounterable way to tutor a creature in response to diabolic edict. BUG decks are running wild right now, and many of the leovold/standstill/delver brews are running one or two edicts IN THE MAIN. I apologize for the all caps but I got excited there for a moment. Having 8 ways to get a arbor to sacrifice to an edict effect makes the deck so much stronger in the current meta.

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Originally Posted by thanksnah

If you are thinking about or are happy with lost legacy in your sideboard, I don't know why you wouldn't run therapy as a part of the discard package.

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Lost Legacy is especially a card versus Miracles. Discard can also take a sword, but your opponent could have a snapcaster/otherSword/Terminus in the top three cards and draw/top/brainstorm into it. Lost Legacy will take all copies, so no more snapflashback and the shuffling of the library makes it unlikely there will be a Terminus on top. Three is also a difficult number for Miracles to counter through counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

Lost Legacy is especially a card versus Miracles. Discard can also take a sword, but your opponent could have a snapcaster/otherSword/Terminus in the top three cards and draw/top/brainstorm into it. Lost Legacy will take all copies, so no more snapflashback and the shuffling of the library makes it unlikely there will be a Terminus on top. Three is also a difficult number for Miracles to counter through counterbalance.

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Right, but if you had cast thoughtseize in the situation you described, you're more or less in the same spot -- I suppose you have a marginal advantage in getting to pick between snapcaster and swords with thoughtseize, but you're basically playing around the same answer in both cases.

However, if your opponent has two swords in hand, therapy presents a huge advantage.

Obviously Lost Legacy > Therapy post board. But I'm talking about game one. My only point in comparing the two is that the popularity of LL in the sideboard serves to demonstrate that if you have some experience with the deck you know what you're looking for in your opponent's hand/deck. Potentially turning your late game fetches/spirit guides into additional discard spells is just icing on the cake.

I'm not saying Therapy is one hundred percent the right choice -- ultimately I may go back to the traditional thoughtseize/duress package -- but in initial testing it has been surprising how well it has performed.

I am saying, however, that I currently think arbor is one hundred percent the right choice. Edicts are everywhere now (thanks, true-name).

I agree with you on necessity of playing Dryad Arbor / Khalni Garden. In my local meta, everyone is running either 3 Diabolic Edicts or couple of Karakas in SB .. so annoying!

Cabal Therapy - Therapy+Probe is brutal follow-up, but as people mentioned, you don't have a luxury of having discard+Therapy or Probe+Therapy in your opening every time. And in scenario where we are on play G1, I would prefer Dures/TS/IoK over Therapy all day. Besides first game is usually favorable, also because of surprise effect. Answering Marit Lage is difficult and people will keep average good hand against an unknown opponent. Thus they won't have many answers. Again, I wouldn't be concerned about G1 too much. And in G2 we can board in e.g. Lost Legacy.
Another problem I have with Cabal Therapy - yes, we know what key cards we want to extract from our opponents' hands, but often there are more options. I would rather take at least something (and crippling opp's ability to at least dig for an answer) than having an slight option of taking two pieces of hate (although stripping our opp. of all StPs in one shot is game over).

Against fast tempo decks there are: Fow, BS, Daze.
S&T: Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Fatty
Storm, TES: this depends strongly on their hand
Enchantress: Elephant Grass, Enchantress
Miracles: StP, BS, Top, Counterbalance, ...
Cloudpost: Repeal, Crop Rotation, Top, BS
and so on.

But if Therapy works for you, I might give it a try.

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

How are you beating Miracles consistently? What patterns to the games result in you winning? How are you sideboarding?

Edit: I guess I'll actually answer the post :)

Tips and Tricks for Death and Taxes:

1) Wait to play Pithing Needle. Since D+T lacks card selection, they are stuck with what they draw in most cases. Wait to play Needle until you see something you want to Needle, either from them playing it or from a discard spell. In order of priority, these are usually Wasteland > Vial > Karakas > Port / Mom if there's no clear choice.

2) Fast mana can usually come out post-board because games will likely take a while to win unless you catch them with a bad hand that folds to one Needle.

3) Against only Karakas up as they pass to your turn with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben out, Ghost Quarter on Karakas at the end of their second main phase if they have already played a land that turn. This prevents them from floating mana in their endstep to use with their Plains they fetch to Plow your token. This does let them play a 2nd Karakas from hand if they have it, so use this trick only when they have played a land that turn.

4) Allow / entice your opponent to Wasteland your duals / Urborgs instead of your Stages / Depths.

5) Stage can copy your opponent's Wasteland, Port, or Karakas. You can occaisionally use the Wasteland or Port ability to get around Karakas.

6) Bring in Karakas to stop Mangara of Corondor from turning off your entire deck.

7) Flickerwisp is their best card against us if they can get to the necessary mana / vial number. It kills Marit Lage with its ability, blocks, attacks for 3 to clock us, and can exile Pithing Needles for a turn to unlock their cards.

8) Hexmage is a good blocker / attacker in the matchup. You can frequently get in some points of damage that negates 2-4 points of lifegain from Jitte / Batterskull. Hexmage also sacrifices to remove counters from vial. This will prevent your opponent from putting the card they want in from Vial if you remove the counters in response. If your opponent says that Vial remembers how many counters were on it, that only applies if the Vial is killed.

9) Sejiri Steppe can counter Swords, Flickerwisp or Mangara's abilities, etc. However, one of its better modes is to get through blockers.

10) Try to copy Ghost Quarter with a Stage if you get a chance, to make sure you have access to a second Ghost Quarter effect if your first combo attempt does not work.

Some of these plays are pretty obvious, but that should be enough to win at least half your games unless your opponent really knows your deck as well as you do.

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DNSolver--I had a chance to jam a bunch of games against my friend who is a good DnT player and utilize some of your tips. Your tips were very helpful in just giving me a small edge in some scenarios. And I think against lesser DnT players and/or DnT players who don't know the matchup, I will have a lot more success. The biggest help was waiting to play Needle, as in most matchups I just immediately Needle Wasteland. I also got fancy with Stage copying Wastelands and Ghost Quarters to force favorable interactions. It's a pretty complex matchup.

I also developed a very different sideboard plan when I am on the play, which I actually think might be good :-) It is:

+4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Lost Legacy

-1 Duress
-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Crop Rotation
-2 Elvish Spirit Guide

They don't have countermagic, so a T1 Chalice on 1 shuts down a good portion of stuff we care about, and we can combo as long as we play around Wasteland/Karakas. It's risky. But if you don't have a T1 Chalice, you still have 4 Needles. However, you can handle the problem lands with a Sylvan Scrying for Ghost Quarter, or Stage copy one of their Wasteland or Port. I had more success with this plan today than more traditional plans. This may partly be due to my friend running 3 Paths in the SB as well, so it really shuts down his removal and T1 Vial and Mother of Runes. I think on the draw I will likely SB more traditionally, because them landing a T1 Vial makes the Chalice plan look pretty bad. (Though some games I was able to Decay the vial; I tested the strategy out on the draw just to see). And using Lost Legacy to strip the Flickerwisps was pretty nice.

My meta consists of Big Red Stompy, D+T, show and tell variants, Delver variants, and sometimes Sylvan Plug and R/G lands, I think there might be like one or two miracles players. How should I design my SB? I want to run promised end but I don't think it's worth the slots in my meta, I am thinking 4 decay, maybe a grip or two, I guess Chalice would be a good place? any advice is welcome
3x Abrupt Decay
2x K-Grip
4x Chalice of the void
???
???

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Originally Posted by chaosjace

My meta consists of Big Red Stompy, D+T, show and tell variants, Delver variants, and sometimes Sylvan Plug and R/G lands, I think there might be like one or two miracles players. How should I design my SB? I want to run promised end but I don't think it's worth the slots in my meta, I am thinking 4 decay, maybe a grip or two, I guess Chalice would be a good place? any advice is welcome
3x Abrupt Decay
2x K-Grip
4x Chalice of the void
???
???

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1x Karakas: sneak and show and lands are in your meta. Karakas with needle forces sneak to dig for answers while you work on assembling the combo
0-1x pithing needle (if you have three main, put the 4th in the board)
4x extraction effect of your choice: theres no reanimator in your local meta so you could probably get fancy with some sadistic sacrament or lost legacy to complement a pair of surgical extractions

A winter orb may also be a good fit with lands, dnt, and miracles in your meta.

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Originally Posted by Djehuti

1x Karakas: sneak and show and lands are in your meta. Karakas with needle forces sneak to dig for answers while you work on assembling the combo
0-1x pithing needle (if you have three main, put the 4th in the board)
4x extraction effect of your choice: theres no reanimator in your local meta so you could probably get fancy with some sadistic sacrament or lost legacy to complement a pair of surgical extractions

A winter orb may also be a good fit with lands, dnt, and miracles in your meta.

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Thanks! Hopefully I can get some play testing in soon. I really like the way this deck goes together. This feels much safer than R/G lands. Do we just scoop if they extract depths or is go for beats the plan? Has a way to get a depths out of exile or back from graveyard been discussed ? you could use Faerie macabre to protect one but is it worth it?